Working_Setters

Nutro gets promoted pretty heavily on here at times, not sure if anybody here works for them? I've never tried it so have no idea how good it really is. I can say I've tried a wide variety of foods and Euk (performance) is by far the best for my dogs

you're releasing the dog into an environment you can't control before it's ready, and everytime he ignores the recall, it makes it that much harder to break the habit. As suggested an e-collar is one way to correct the problem, provided you know how to use it. I'd suggest a 3hr drive to see a knowledgeable pro would be money well spent in this case. I'd also be a little careful about cheap 2nd hand e-collars, on the one hand the may lack the range and level of stimulation to deter a hard running Mal at distance, and on the other hand the last thing I'd want is an e-collar that the stimulated the dog at the wrong time, or at the wrong level of intensity. I'd err on the side of caution, following the old motto that you get what you pay for, and get the best quality collar you can afford. I'm not sure if there are any pros that might hire out a collar for a couple of months, b/c that's about all you'll need it for to solve this problem. Else I recommend alternative ways to enforce your recall command and teach your dog that recall isn't optional. The light 20 cord suggested could be of assistance (wear gloves to prevent rope burns). I make a good deal of use of semi-confined places (eg fenced dog parks), they give the dog the illusion of freedom, thus tempting him to ignore the recall, but it's quite easy to run your dog down and correct them, should they not recall on command. Fenced dog parks also have the advantage of keeping your dog safe from roads/cars during this training. Initially go early in the morning when there are few other uses to scare with a large semi-controlled dog. Also find some high level distractions (birds etc) and train your dog to recall in the face of them when on a long line etc. Then move the distract to the other side of a wire mesh fence, so the dog can see it clearly, but can't get it (ENSURE the dog cant get it), then train recall with your dog off leash. Bottom line, dog must recall on command, first time every time, and it's up to you to engineer situations where you can promptly enforce the recall command if the dog should choose to ignore it, until he's 100% on the highest level distractions, then you can turn him loose in public.

By way of clarification, I would add that IMO if you want to get the maximum use out of an e-collar as a training tool, then you need a considerable amount of skill and knowledge. If on the other hand you will limit the extent of e-collar training to breaking stock chasing, then considerably less skill and knowledge are needed. In the case of breaking stock chasing there are really only 3 variables (1) When to stimulate - I'd suggest when the dog engages the stock. At my place running in a paddock with stock is OK, running near stock is OK, engaging stock - chasing/harassing are not OK (2) When to stop stimulating - When the dog dis-engages with the stock (3) What level to stimulate at - The minimum needed to stop the dog chasing stock. I'd recommend keeping quiet throughout this training, there is no need to say anything and IMO it's better if you don't. I agree with Erny's last post, if you have access to a e-collar savvy pro, then using them is not a bad idea. I also think that the other thing you need to do is teach a reliable stop (I'd use a whistle and train until the dog stops first time, every time). You should teach this without the use an e-collar, but could use the collar to enforce the sit once the command has been well learnt.

I agree with the e-collar suggestion. I have used one to cure several dogs of their stock chasing habits. The suggestion to get the assistance of a pro-trainer is a good one, but to be truthful it aint rocket science. If you've trained a couple of dogs on your own, then I don't think the transition to an e-collar is that big of a deal. Just use common sense and a level of stimulation that is appropriate to the dog you're training. Also don't fit the collar and start stimulating straight away, the dog will become "collar-wise" and behave while wear the collar, but return to old habits once it's off. Put the e-collar on the dog everyday, right before going for a walk, for 2-3 weeks before you stimulate. That was e-collar comes to mean "walk/fun" rather than "shock". Naturally you will keep the dog well away from stock during the 2-3 weeks before you start stimulating. In my experience this problem can be solved very quickly by intelligent use of an e-collar

Hi LL, After a long day at work, I have to tell you that you're one lucky gal, you make me so envious ;) ;) That I too could give up work and spend my days dog training. Well I guess there's only another 30 odd years until I retire

There are many variables including, the dog, the handler, the nature of what you're trying to teach and where you're trying to teach it. However I suspect the biggest variable is what people consider "trained". Does it mean you get the behaviour first time, every time (which is my definition of a “required behaviour” - ie the dog perform the behaviour whenever and wherever I require it to do so), or does it mean you get the behaviour in a distraction free environment when you're luring with treats? If it only takes 3-5 reps to train a behaviour, why when you attend retrieving trials do you see Restricted/AA dogs ignoring sit whistles and directional commands? These are, for the most part, very good dogs with very good trainers, that have had far more then 3-5 reps, so what gives? IMO it takes 100s of reps and many, many hours of training to reliably train a dog to perform even simple (eg sit to whistle) required behaviours. The key word here is reliably - ie first time, every time.

Congrats Country Joe on a top perfromance, it must be very pleasing to have both dogs going so well. That last blind was a tester, I guess the judge need to seperate the field a bit, it must have been a relief when your dogs came back with the bird.

There are pork bones, including trotters, in the bags of mixed bones I get. Initially the dogs weren't as interested in them as they were beef/lamb/roo, but now they love them. Pork is one of the cheaper meats in the USA, so plenty of BARFers over there feed quite a lot of it

Speaking of training partners, I've been doing quite a bit (once/twice a week) of training with GB, he's got a little black bitch Kate he got from you. I like her temperment, she's always so happy to be working, wagging her tail a million miles/hour.

Even being well aware of the fact that a large part of a dog's performance is situational, I am still amazed at the difference location makes. When you go training with somebody and they take you to their home paddock, swamp, lagoon etc, the dogs frequently look like magic, and you go WOW - that's an AWERSOME dog. You go to a new location, ask the dog to perform the same type of exercise and it's frequently so lousy that initially you have trouble believing it's the same dog. Even after seeing this happen over and over, I still have to shake my head and wonder why. Even well conditioned dogs never seem to have quite as much confidence when travelling as they do in their home paddock.

It's warm, but not terrible, I'm sure the dogs (and perhaps handlers) will be taking a cool refreshing dip, I'm told the water is (relatively) free of leeches. I'm looking forward to it, I've not been to an Oz RT since before I went to the USA. Shame you can't make it, but will catch you in Feb.

Agree about the motivation bring focus (exclusion of surrounding). I don't do agility, so prehaps I'm off base here, but isn't it the case that agility courses are set up in much the same way wherever you go, weave poles always to the left of the tunnel or whatever. In which case, the layout of the course is familar to the dog, even if the location is not, and that familarity helps the dog with it's routine. Just a thought, like I say, I'm clueless about agility. No the courses are always completely different everywhere you train & trial. The dogs shouldn't need familiarity with the course nor the location, their sole objective is to get direction from you. There is no time to look around nor is there any interest in that, they are 100% focussed on where your shoulders are pointing & which obstacle you are telling them will be next. That's the plan anyway Ahhhhhh, that's cool. I'd always assumed that once a dog was "agility trained" it would be pretty well running on autopilot, that is the dog is focused on the course, knowning which obstacles to do and in what order, but now I see the dog and handler are very much a team and the dog would need to be much more focused on the handler than I previously realised. Thanks Vic

Sidoney - I understand what you're saying and I'm not familar with Kay L, so this is just a general comment. I find it interesting that people creating stressful situations for dogs consider themselves positive trainers b/c they use a clicker. Perhaps, non-physical or non-contact trainers would be a better description.

Agree about the motivation bring focus (exclusion of surrounding). I don't do agility, so prehaps I'm off base here, but isn't it the case that agility courses are set up in much the same way wherever you go, weave poles always to the left of the tunnel or whatever. In which case, the layout of the course is familar to the dog, even if the location is not, and that familarity helps the dog with it's routine. Just a thought, like I say, I'm clueless about agility.

Much as Koehler is a dirty word with many today prefering more positive methods, this was very much a corner stone of his training methods, and in my limited experience (following his FF program) I've found it very effective.

How many dogs do you have? 3, two IS and one Wiem How often do you train etc. Pretty much everyday Do you find it hard to train all of them? Sometimes. The IS focus on field work, the Weim on retrieving. Some of the basic work can be done in the yard, footy ground etc, but that's limited, you quickly need to get out in the paddocks, which can be time consuming. Rarely do you find good training water next to good quail paddocks, so you have move around a bit. It certainly cuts into the time I spend with my wife and doing other stuff. It's not too bad at the moment (we're very luck with where we live), but I'm about to start a new job with more traveling, which is going to cut into my training time. I suspect I'm going to have to take the dogs to work with me, and train them on the way to/from work, else it will be too dark. What are their rough ages - ie: are some retired, do you have multiple dogs at trialling level? 2.2, 2.2, 3.5, Plan to trial all of them this year. Do you feel that you have enough time for each dog? Enough, yes, but certainly could use more. If I only had one dog, I'd be closer to it. Having 3 you do have to share around the love, which would all be focused on one dog if that's all you had Do you have multiple breeds to train or do you only have the one breed? Any preferences in working style? Yes, IS and Weim. I prefer the field work and the goofy high energy nature of the IS. Still getting to know the Weim, but he's defiantely "more serious" than the IS. He can be a stubborn SOB at times, and I prefer a more biddable dog. I do enjoy the "technical" aspects of Retriever training, plus it's a lot more social (I train twice a week with friends, field I mostly train alone), it's also much easier to find good retriever training grounds close to home, good quail paddocks often require a lot of driving to locate.

What the others said. I think as humans we appreciate the difficulty of learning a new exercise, so we patiently break it down into achievable steps, the dog has success and all is well. What we have more trouble with (since it doesn't apply to so much to us as a species) is accepting the difficulty dogs have transferring skills learnt in one setting to new locations. When you go to a new location (and you should do so regularly), go back to basics and slowly build up, have success and enjoy it.

Beaglenewb - you have to learn to pick up on the sarcasm. Tollersowned (and pretty much everybody who's a regular on DOL, particularly the training forum) is well aware of the need to socialise pups. Hint when you see the icon, it's generally a sarcastic comment - usually all in good fun though, so don't take it seriously/personally.

Never give a command more than once, the second time should be accompanied by a correction IMO. Sorry couldn't help myself.

I'll see if I can dig out some pics and scan them for you. I was in Virginia, USA, the countryside was beautiful and at times spectacular. The guys I went with had access to some really exclusive ($10,000,000) properties. Watching the hounds work in these conditions was awesome, just had to be constantly aware the hound stayed on rabbit (hare) scent, as if when they got onto deer or bear, all hell would break loose Rabbit hunting with hounds is HUGE in the USA, if you ever get the chance I can HIGHLY recommend it

Congrats on your training Freckles. I'd be interested to know how well your treat bag would work if you hounds were running fresh hare/rabbit scent. I hunted with a pack of 20 beagles once/twice a week for 4 years, and I can tell you there wasn't a treat bag on earth that could have pulled those hounds off fresh scent Course these were huntin' hounds doing the work they were breed for, like I say I expect your average pet is quite a bit different. Using a check chain in combination with treats and other positives also gets my

YES - I'd say that's exactly what it means.

Does the dog feel excessive pain, NO Does the dog feel significant pain, NO Does the dog feel ANY pain/discomfort YES - If not, the dog would ignore the collar and continue doing whatever it liked. Best of luck training your beagle, in my experience they are one of the hardest breeds to train. They get that nose down on a scent and become oblivious to everything else around them. The beagles I'm familiar with are hunting hounds, perhaps those from pet/show stock aren't quite this bad. Training in areas with as few distracting scents as possible would be a good idea to start with.

The cuisine sounds very tempting, the problem I have with Benella is that there are FTs scheduled at the same time. If this rain (yes RAIN) keeps up, conditions may improve enough for us to hold them, in which case I'll be running the red dogs. If the FTs are no go, then I look forward to seeing you all in Benella, and sampling some world famous curry.

Tapeworms are not the only worms that maybe observed in a dog's droppings. Some intestinal worms do look similar to maggots, if you're not familar with them, it would be easy to confuse the two. I guess those areas getting maggots in the droppings must be a lot cooler/wetter than here. It's so hot/dry here that within a few hours droppings have dried to a "brick like" consistency, certainly far too dry to support any maggots.