leopuppy04

How exactly do you define a 'forced retrieve'?????

I think there are many interpretations of it. I would NEVER consider doing a proper forced retrieve (opening the mouth and slamming it shut and holding it TIGHT) nor would I ever consider doing an ear pinch to get my dog to retrieve. The Steve Austin technique is about as 'forced' as I would go. As I am probably getting known around these parks as preferring 'positive' or 'motivational' methods, I did use a forced retrieve on my boy to get the point across (that sounds so mean, but it wasn't really).. I have ended up with a dog that LOVES to retrieve and hold the d/b.

So here is my story:

My dog (as most working dogs) LOVES to retrieve. but also like most working dogs, he likes to spit it out at your feet or carry it around chewing it! So as hard as I tried I couldn't get him to hold it. I tried the clicker method. It worked.... up until getting him to clasp down on the d/b. Sure... I could have persisted, but when I was already trying to move on from there for quite a while and it always ended up with the dog or me getting frustrated, I thought i'd give this a go.

Note that since my dog was a pup I had often opened his mouth to shove a treat down etc, simply because I knew that at some stage he would need to take tablets, and I didn't want him to hate his mouth being opened. He was really good at 'taking' objects just not 'holding' them. So when the d/b was in his mouth, I would gently hold his mouth closed saying 'hold'.... always got lots of play and a big treat for this. I wanted to make it MORE enjoyable than unpleasent so we always got NICE things after this. It didn't take him long to get the point across. I'd ask him to 'take' and as soon as his mouth would open a tad, C&T. Then Hold, and if his mouth clasped down C&T.... I wanted to teach him 'take' as I didn't want the mouth opening to be so aversive or anything like that.

Everything else fell into place because he had a natural prey drive so he would initially fetch the toy when on the move, then i'd make him wait longer and longer etc. To get the finish - I did it the normal C&T way... it was just getting the hold which was done 'forced'.

To me, this is not, cruel, mean or anything detrimental to my dog. Our retrieve is not yet perfect, but that is because he picks it up from the end. He is more than happy to play d/b and to me that is a testament that I haven't done anything wrong as if I had, my dog certianly wouldn't be zooming out and zooming back for the d/b and begging me for more!

I often think I dont train enough and I will never be able to achieve what I want. My puppy is 8 months old.

You will. I often believe that training too much can quench a dog also. So I train when my dog wants to train (sorta!).... for my dog that is every 2-3 days - that gets the best response.... but sometimes we go every day for a bit too... it is all fun though.

My aims lie in Show/obedience/agility

My boy is/ was on Supercoat energy but I find it really hard to keep him in condition on this brand (when he is active, which is most of the time!)... So I think i'm going to change it to Nutrience/Proplan diet plus the raw food. His coat is great, but because he isn't keeping his condition (loosing weight BAD!) I have found his energy levels have dropped.... will also let you know how we go on nutrience.

I have found with Supercoat (he had a break from this while he was getting mostly raw) his stools were softer and there was more of them... the smell was pretty bad too!!!

Just some thoughts! Mind you I still recommed S/C for a mid-range product!

Thanks CTD - i'll look that up!

My pup is getting desexed that day, so don't think she wll be in the mood for playing.

Please let me know how it goes and i hope to make something in the new year. But very good of you to organise this LP

Thanks Lily! I'll try and organise a weekly/fortnightly get-together for as long as we can be bothered. I'll also try and vary meeting places so that it can try and benefit everyone ! Hope you can come next time!!

Ok here is my idea:

23/12/06 - puppy social at Lilydale lake... This will give us plenty of kiddy social, puppy social and human social... plenty of people coming up and sayin "oh what a gorgeous puppy!". I think it is a Sat but we'll say meeting at 5pm that way if it is a hot day we still have a better chance of meeting. We can also trek down to an area to expose the pups to some water if anyone wants a 'swimming dog'

We'll stay away from the off-leash areas simply to avoid un-vaccinated pooches and old dog crap lying around.

Meeting place: BBQ area near the kiddies playground... in that vacinity somewhere - i'll try and get there early - just look with the young gal holding a blue dog and cute pup! I say that coz my dog stands out in a crowd!! LOL! Feel free to bring older pooches if they are well behaved, good with pups and fully vaccinated. Also bring nibblies for the humans if you like!

Basically the ONLY thing I want to do is get some dog-dog social as well as people social. At this point I don't really care about tunnels and surfaces etc, but if you have stuff please bring it! At this time of the day there are usually bikes and everything going around so it is the perfect place to interact.

If any one has a quick set-up puppy pen can they please bring it along as this will give us somewhere to let our pups play. I will see if I can borrow my friends.

Anyone that wants to come along for puppy cuddles is more than welcome. If you need my contact number PM me.

Keep in mind that these pups will have only had their first shots - so if anyones puppy has the runs, looks off colour etc... please do us all a favour by NOT bringing it and coming to our gathering the next week. Likewise for the adult doggies aswell.

I think at the moment in Lilydale there is a fairly low incidence of parvo and other nasties in the area, but with the puppy pen idea, I may set up the pen on a picnic rug just to be sure. We can carry them to other places if necessary. We'll try and keep them in a non-shady area (less incidence of picking up parvo/bacteria if pups play in a well lit area) and try and keep other dogs from direct interaction.

Does it sound like a plan?? If you want to come, please RSVP to me ASAP so I have a rough idea of who is coming. Also tell me what dogs your are bringing etc.

Thanks

I don't agree with the idea that either, but it's an argument I've heard quite often from clicker type trainers - the idea that if the dog is being physically assisted or controlled by the trainer, it just isn't learning. Perhaps it holds true for dogs with certain temperaments? I really don't know, and it's probably off topic - sorry!

LOL as a 'clicker type' trainer I don't see how others can say that the dog isn't learning through 'guide show place' coz otherwise Haven must have the smartest dog around, and every training club that trains with Guide show place would never advance anywhere! LOL - of course learning goes on :laugh:.... I think it is just, as always preference for the method of training and what works best for them. As for me.... I prefer luring and 'shaping' but that doesn't mean other methods don't work!!! Don't worry Amhailte - i've heard it too, and it always makes me smile like a whole lot of other 'dog theories'.

LOL Lily - good luck with your pup also - are you interested in coming???? I'm sure my pup will be fine since her big bro has never had a problem, but i'd hate to test it within 2 wks of being in our house and no one home . I think i'll leave her inside and get a friend to come in at some stage and our neighbours earlier in the day.....

Erny Said

My own experience has taught me that (in general) when a dog has been "trained" on a head collar, it has still been necessary to train (almost from the beginning) to a different style of collar. Whereas, when I've worked a dog on a (eg) chain/prong, there can be a more immediate carry-over effect to another type of collar (eg. martingale; flat).

Interesting. I have never found this when I used my head collar. He didn't give me any more attention etc, but it simply gave me more control in highly distracting environments (dog club for a 6mth old is VERY distracting *g*!). Perhaps because I worked him Off lead/flat collar elsewhere that this didn't ring true for me. I actually had more difficulty teaching Leo to 'Heel' with the lead on since all of our work is done off lead - to him, lead means arse off and be an idiot!!! Even now I have difficulty as he still goes wide on LAT.

Rom Said

In light of all of the above, do you think that the halti is appropriate in this situation: Competition obedience dog that has excellent loose leash skills, but is dog aggressive so handler uses halti for control where its difficult to control the proximity of other dogs ie, line up for vetting prior to competition?

In this situation yes I do. It gives the handler more control in a congested environment. The handler knows that they have more control so in turn feels more confident. Dogs feed off our emotions and since handler is feeling more confident then the dog picks up on that.... I think that it is fine. As for wearing it in the ring, no I don't believe they should be used. Obedience trials are about teamwork and IMO since no corrections are allowed in the ring I believe halters shouldn't be (not that they are) allowed either. As much as I like food also, I don't think that they should ever be allowed in the rings either as that doesn't allow the partnership between handler and dog fully develop.... i've gone OT I know!! LOL!

Haven

I'd prefer close, so outer eastern is better for me (not that you really need me, because I don't have a puppy)

LP

LOL Haven - you just wanna come for the puppy cuddles

How does Lilydale Lake suit everyone?? That way we can head down to the train station/xmas lights if need be?

I'm thinking sat/sun at the moment (although I have taken a few weeks off for puppy social (as if I needed a reason!)) so probably around 23/24 and 30/31. We can keep going even after PPS has started again just for some fun.

Haven

Perhaps a few outings, a train ride to the beach, a visit to an airport, farm, fire station etc. Lots of events on with Christmas coming. Lakeview dve in Lillydale is huge this time of year for christmas lights, a walk down the street on a few different evenings and a trip to Carols by Candlelight?

After this weekend I'm free Sat and Sun 16/17 and 23/24 and if it is close to home, any evening (after 5pm) except Thursdays.

LP

Carols sounds like a good idea. Which brings me to my delimma - i'm going to carols in the city on xmas eve..... what to do with puppy???? Don't wanna leave it outside incase of fireworks, but leaving it in the laundry for most of the nite and also late arvo is too mean IMO and I don't know who I can rope in to let her out... since it is xmas eve and all.... ideas???

The reason I dislike retractable leads is I want my dogs to walk on a loose lead. If I use a retractable lead the dog is rewarded for pulling on the lead. When the dog pulls he/she gets more lead and more freedom, which is the opposite of what I am trying to train.

If I ever need my dog to have a long lead, I put him on a long lead not a retractable.

I agree. But then you have people who have their dogs on a retractable at a confined space like a vet clinic and let their dog wonder everywhere and pee on everything

There is a place in Croydon that i am going to use next year. They have different classes for different ages, so your dog socialises with dogs of the same age. They are unfortunately closed over Dec & Jan. But reopen Feb, in the meantime my boyfriend and I are going to do some of our own training in different situations and locations and just get prepared for the next phase. I believe it is $56 for a full year. And classes are held every Sunday.

Hi Lily,

Sounds like you are talking about CDODC! If you are i'll see you there!! LOL! I'm not looking for anything to TRAIN my do but to socialise it. I am booked in for CDODC's puppy preschool starting early Jan but I just wanted to meet up with like puppies over xmas to get a bit of dog-dog social happening. So, I have a few interest posted - some from Mt Evelyn way and others from closer to the city. I have two ideas....

Silcock reserve

CTD's house or

Reserve in Box Hill.

anyone interested please tell me where suits you best as well as the days!

Thanx!

Or maybe you could take your pups to a shopping centre (outside) or somewhere where there is lots of trafic so they can get used to lots of people going past. You might need to take a mat for the pups or hold them though coz there could be nasties around.

Hi tadpole - Thanks for the ideas. Basicaly though i'm really wanting to get some dog-dog social with puppies around the same age and with good adult dogs. I plan to do all of the other things that you mentioned but this can be done individually IMO . Thanks for the ideas though - and yep the tarp is a good idea

Thanx Tassie That was exactly what I was looking for.

Like you, I'm too impatient if i'm looking for a particular behaviour to get my dog to free-shape all of the way. But I think 'free time' is good as I think getting your dog to 'think' for itself rather than blindly follow is better in sooo many ways. I can still see myself going through 20 dogs before I get it right though!! LOL!

Yes - throwing the food helps.... if nothing else, it certianly helps with setting the dog up to try again.... really useful!

I'll check out the links! gotta love the K9 events one!

Hi guys!

Calling all clicker trainers!!!

i've only just started doing some 'free shaping' with my dog and i'm loving it ! We haven't really focused on much but just getting him used to the idea of 'offering' behaviours. He is getting this idea and will start looking for objects to interact with or he'll start going through his own repitoire of tricks. I've done a bit of work with the cardboard box and he now pushes it along the ground . I'm also doing things like putting the rings on the quoit pole and *trying* to teach him to ride a skateboard etc (Nb: I cheated this one a little and lured a bit to get the idea in his head!). I am curious about some other ideas that people have??? What do you do in your 'free time' with your dog? do you have a particular goal in mind or do you just wait and see what the dog dishes out? If you have a particular trick/ behaviour in mind (eg: crossing legs, bowing etc) do you free shape it, lure it, or what?

What are some ideas you could give a free shaping newbie (dog and owner!) on attacking next??? I want him to be able to offer behaviours with objects as well as with himself...

What are some good ways to introduce this to a puppy (ie free shaping, thinking for itself).

Did anyone 'free shape' a walking backwards, or was did you do this by walking into the dog?

Is it considered 'free shaping' if you present a target stick and the dog touches it without direction???

Thanks guys!!!

I would be more than happy to enlighten you!!!

I'll try and sum it up quickly and add if I need to! Basically the main thing to do with a halter is:

1. Get your dog used to it before throwing it on and taking your dog for a walk to the park. This is a very common mistake as many people just chuck it on without 'desensitising' your dog to the feel of the halter. This means, sitting it on your dogs nose and treating them when it sits there. This reduces the 'aversive' that many people refer to when talking about halti's. If you condition the feeling of the halter to good things (food, chasing toys etc) then, I am pretty sure your dog won't mind wearing it! LOL! Mine hardly wears his anymore, so when it first goes on he likes to rub, but not really for that long.

2. Make sure the 'neck' strap a) sits high above the head, and b) is tight. This is the most difficult part to get people do. People will either fit the back strap to low (makes an L shape - more dangerous, not to mention ineffective!) rather than high on the head, just below the ears. The other mistake is people fit it like a normal collar - loose! Most need to be so tight you can only JUST fit one finger through. The gentle leader tends to need to be a little tighter than others. If this isn't tight enough (or sits down too low) it causes discomfort to the dog, not to mention causing the halter to move whenever the dog turns its head.

3. DONT give your dog the full extent of the lead (particularly if they pull)... this is how dogs can get neck injuries from halters. They surge to the end and wham! the dogs neck sharply spins around causing a 'whiplash' effect. OUCH! I hold my dogs lead close to the buckle for ages until the dog starts to learn not to pull or whatever, then I gradually give a little more lead, but never the full length (or even half, depending on the length of the lead). This is why I also would recommend something like the infin8 (blackdog) halter for an incessent puller who has no other issues.... this way you get a similar effect to the halter BUT the dog can't snap its neck around.... downside... you can't control the head to break focus etc (very important for aggression).

4. Make any movements with the halter smooth. When you turn the dog around, make it smooth and not jerky. Again, this would be another reason dogs get injuries... many trainers/ handlers/ pet owners are used to a jerk-and-pull and thus will rarely make their movements smooth.

5. Don't think that your halter is a one fix solution... there still is training involved! Many people put it on and think that is all they have to do and the dog will 'magically' stop pulling.... it works for all of 5 mins! The dog will stop pulling for that long coz it takes them a while to get used to it etc. They can still pull on a halter!

Just a couple more points.... I don't particularly like the GL simply because there is no change in tension from the halter.... there is always constant pressure on... I personally prefer the halti/blackdog versions as these tighten over the muzzle when pressure is put on the lead... thats my opinion though. Remember that when your dog was a pup you had to get it used to a collar and lead. At those times the pup may not have liked its collar either.... that was a constant pressure on the neck, the dog soon forgot about... the same goes with the halter if you follow the right steps. Think about it - when you put a seatbelt or buckle on tight.... you can feel it for a certian period of time, then you become 'desensitsed' to it... you still know it is there, you can still feel it, but you don't think about it.

I hope this helps... i'll be more than happy to elaborate!

Rom - well said. I think that whatever works for someone is fine so long as they don't misuse the tool. When you misuse any tool it can lead to 'cruelty'.

Perhaps we can have a pinned topic about EACH of the training tools offered (halti's, chains, prongs, flat collars etc) and links to websites in a completely NON BIASED format... perhaps this will help 'newbies' understand how each tool works, before contributing to threads... I notice that no matter what tool we are talking about, we always cover the same thing because they don't understand the tools... I would be happy to write this if someone wants? Just be patient

Poodlefan - remember, in order to get people to not fire up about prongs etc, we need to sit on the other side of the fence and not fire up about halti's etc. It is the trainers choice what they use and why. It would be silly of us to believe we'd all agree on one simple tool!! LOL! BUT please don't always slam down the halters just because you don't agree with them.... I don't agree with certian training tools also, but I understand and know why they are used.... I've not had any trouble with my halti's.... why??? coz I use it properly :D!

Thanks guys. Tadpole - I have no idea where Kepala park is.... but if CTD says it is too far it is probably too far for me too.

I know of a really good soccer oval in Box Hill (cnr Cantebury Rd and Middleborough Rd) which has a lot of sunlight etc, so less chance of puppies picking up any nasties. We can try and meet there and I can bring things like a see-saw (possibly won't fit in my car), tunnel, skateboard etc. All kinds of things.

Tracey - Social is definately better to start with. As soon as my pup is settled we are going to hit the road - if you are getting you pup next week, i'd still say take it out places, even if you carry it.

Tadpole - if I get one from this litter (everyone cross their fingers, toes and any other body parts they can think of *g*!) it will be arriving home on the 15th or 16th... so I honestly am looking right into the xmas break!

CTD - there are a few pups coming at croydon, so we can try and organise something there... yours, mine and another aussie!

Dogduge,

I agree with you - I think that the dogs should be looking at handlers etc when in the trial ring - at least then your dog is less likely to miss signals etc. BUT all I was trying to tell the OP that if she doesn't wish it, she is not going to lose any points. Of all the trialling dogs I watch the majority that do well are the ones that are attentive to their owners. But I still also stand by and say I have seen some top winning dogs that look straight ahead, but can keep up with their owners through their peripheral vision.

Myszka - I don't show my dog but he knows the stuff about showing for all of the one show per year we enter! I use a different cue - 'heel' means 'heel and look at me' and 'gait' means prance around the ring! LOL!

Hey Leopuppy, I sent you a PM. I haven't started one before so don't know if I did it right! Did it arrive at your end?

Hi Jules,

Yep it came through I just haven't replied yet LOL!

As for the titles etc - while Myszka is right - you don't NEED the dog to look at you for any obedience level, if that is what you want for your end goal, work for it now.... it is much easier to start training for precision at day one then change the criteria half way through when the dog is already set in concrete.

JMHO

I am confused by this statement. Are you saying that a dog does not need to look at its handler while working? If so, how is the dog supposed to cue itself using your body language or hand signals?

I am saying that I have seen many dogs in Open and UD that don't look at the owner but rather straight ahead. They aren't watching the owners intently... not saying that this is right because as you say, they may miss signals.. but keep in mind that dogs have a large peripheral vision so although they are looking straight ahead, they can still see our signals. What I am trying to say is that there is nowhere in the rulebook (as far as I know) that states your dog must be looking at you while heeling.... they just need to heel and do what is asked.

I'd lower the criteria when you are outside in distractions - don't ask her to do anything but look at you and pay her for that. By asking her to heel and look at you may be really hard if she is distracted by the environment. Let her know that by looking at you she gets paid no matter what the distractions. Then gradually work your way up to what you are getting out of her at home. Remember she is young - the world is full of excitement so we need to lower the criteria so that she can 'succeed'. At home there are no distractions so working for you is an easy alternative .

As for the titles etc - while Myszka is right - you don't NEED the dog to look at you for any obedience level, if that is what you want for your end goal, work for it now.... it is much easier to start training for precision at day one then change the criteria half way through when the dog is already set in concrete.

JMHO

Ok - so i'm pretty keen on this summer DOL 'dog partay' thing! I don't mind if you have older dogs (good with pups) or younger pups. Anyone that is interested can you PM me and also tell me where you live so that I can try and set up a place that is relatively 'centre' for everyone. Like I said, i'm not really doing it for the training but more for the social so it will be pretty laid back for both owners and dogs - just a bit of a romp, meet and greet and maybe a few diff surfaces or anything... those that do end up coming - if you have anything usefull for pups (puppy see-saws, tunnels etc) please bring them along. Also - in your PM - tell me what dates you are free!!! Thanks!

You could try Kintala club, and you are welcome to meet up with me and my pup as they are similar ages, or come around to my place, as I have 1/3 acre with creek, bridge, chickens, cats, tiny see saw etc. PM me and I will give you my phone number or ask Cindy from Animal Aid. Does Animal aid have classes?

Thanks CTD - I'll take u up on that! I remember asking Cyndi and she said that they stop over xmas I believe . Might give them a ring anyway!

I never thought of summer school!

I know of 3 pups (mine included)... Crash Test, Me and a friend with an aussie pup..... Anyone else??

ETA - location is Eastern 'burbs Mel.