leopuppy04

Pro Plan kibble is definitely smaller than the advance- i haven't seen every variety but the normal adult and performance (which my dog wouldn't even eat!) are quite small. Having used both, i would recomend the Advance over the Pro Plan anyway- had much better results with my 3 dogs in weight, coat condition and palatability.

I must admit that my dog does love Advance - but I wasnt' sure if that was just coz it tastes like Maccas or not - i'm not really sure about the nutrient value etc.

Nutro have a mini kibble available in Adult Maintenance and Lamb and Rice, mini being for dogs which prefer a small bite. It is available from 4 Paws and More Pet Supplies in Keilor Park, am sure they would send you some samples if you cant get to them.

Thanks hesapandabear - but i'm actually looking for larger sized kibble .

Would be about the size of a thumb nail, I think. I am using Iams again at the moment as the shop did not stock Nutrience. They have a few different ones that are different shapes and sizes, I would just be having a feel of the bag.

LOL - do you know how many strange looks I get for doing that?!?!?! I guess the next best thing is to buy the small packets of each and see which one is the best

I know that you can get the Nutrience in different sizes. Last time that I got it, it came with a free smaller size bag but as they did not have the medium breed size they gave me the free bag in small dog and I was told that it is the same just smaller biscuits for smaller mouths.

Thanks Sez - I saw that some have 'small' and 'medium' written on it...... how big is the medium???

I was wondering - I have this Triple Crown dog toy that my guy loves http://www.aboutdogtraining.com/panel.php?14 (which I highly recommend by the way - very difficult to get the treats out for my boy - he has to chew the ball and bounce it as opposed to just rolling it!). The hole however to put the treat in is quite large so my normal dry food (supercoat) doesn't fit into it coz it makes it too easy to empty. I had a packet of Advance dry that we won at a trial and while I really like this (how do you rate it??) I want to switch to something like Nutrience/ Proplan but I don't know what size the dry food is...... can anyone give me tips on the size of dry food similar to advance? The only other one I can think of is Science Diet Oral Care - but I don't really like science diet......

Any suggestions?

Do you/she consider a NRM an aversive?

Depends what you mean as an aversive..... does the dog not want to work because of it? No. But it is some form of 'punishment' otherwise it wouldn't work. I dont' think it 'effects' the dog in anyway otherwise they wouldn't want to 'try again' IMO. So much as witholding the reward is a punishment.

Personally I use NRMs but I always think of them as communication rather than aversive. If you have a biddable dog who want to work for you, I think they see them as communication. Maybe they see them as aversives but bounce back quickly? LOL, I don't know.

Thats more along the lines I also think of it as many people see the word 'aversive' or 'punishment' and think that you are belting your dog or something. But honestly, it is a communication tool IMO to tell the dog that what they are doing is not going to get them anything and to 'try again'..... sometimes I think that if I didn't use this, my dog would just repeatedly offer the same thing, trying harder and harder!

you then are unable to distinguish between wanted and unwanted performance without an aversive. For example, dog doesn't stick a contact. If the dog is rewarded by doing agility and you ask it to do the obstacle again, it's being rewarded for coming off the contact.

This is one situation where it can be appropriate not to end training on a 'high note' or a win i.e. give a NRM and end the training session.

My thoughts exactly - and believe me it works . I use it for 'trick' training also when my dog just gets so carried away and excited that he no longer thinks and starts barking at me and trying to do all tricks at once (speak, Bang and wave all at once is NOT what I asked for!). It sort of ends their fun and they do tend to 'think' about it - "hang on - why did it end.... I was enjoying myself"!

I know there are dogs who do the course (or another activity) for food or tug...I'm just not sure mine is one of them. I am not disputing that she finds tugging rewarding, just whether it is "the reward" & whether in fact it is possible for a dog to find the ultimate reward in the work rather than something external to the work..

I often get asked questions about motivating dogs, my response is that the ultimate motivator will often differ depending on the dog and that it is important to find your dogs unique customised food/game. Unfortunately many people aren't willing to go to the lengths sometimes necessary to find/train that "ultimate" & it shows in what they get from their dog.

Thoughts?

What do you consider your dogs ultimate reward is?

I hear what you are saying *g*! My dog is 1/2 and 1/2 - he partly does the agility course for the reward as well as running around with me and the enjoyment of actually doing the course. You can tell that the agility course is rewarding in itself for him as he would do it all day without a reward, whereas for obedience, the reward needs to come sooner or later *g*!

I find that his 'ultimate' reward changes with what we are doing as well as his mood. If he is hungry - obviously food wins all. Usually I find in agility - chasing the ball after a run is the BEST. Likewise with obedience - after a long run of concentration in the ring - there is nothing like a good game with a toy. He loves raw meat too - but that can distract him a little - so it tends to be the BIG reward at the end and not a 'training' reward as he can become to erratic. But honestly - he LOVES food (we mug strangers for it), but sometimes a good 'ol play wins over, and if I honestly look at it - a lot of the time that is the final reward her really waits for

if you have 2 children do you give them 2 separate words?

Ah but children can understand the full english language - so if we say "X can u please go and do this so I can do this with Z" they understand. Say the same to the dog and they don't understand unless you have trained it. I also wasn't meaning using different commands for 'sit, drop down' etc... no way! But rather, as aforementioned - using a diff release and bridge word.

Sorry - habit... Black Tri.

More than likely a BT - hopefully by mid Dec, but it all depends on how they turn out etc. Will go and check out the piccies

I wouldn't use a different bridge as they will know that it only means something if you are saying it while working with them

Just the same as if I say yes in answer to a question to a person the dogs don't think they will get a treat

thanks Shoemonster.... I think it is such a habit for me to say 'yes' now that if I were to change it i'd end up just saying 'yes' by default and confuse the daylights outta my dogs

The release cue I feel as though I can change as this isn't so 'subconciously' done.

Oh, ok, I wondered why they stopped targeting. We did it in Basic 1, then the Basic 2 instructor said he didn't have a clue what to do with them. I don't care what I teach Bob, anything is good, to keep him on his toes. I love tricks, they are fun.

Yeah tricks are heaps of fun - especially when it involves the dog doing stuff for you - like getting you a drink or pushing the button at the trafic lights, or picking up something u dropped *ggg*! Nothing like cheap labour hey!

I think I saw your beautiful dog last week in the Open ring... was that you?

Uh... no we were in the CCD/Novice ring - we aren't that good yet!!! LOL! Next trial on Sunday *shudders*! If it was a BM aussie - it was me - he seems to be the only one around.... if it was a RM aussie - not me, but a 4 yr old gal training for UD.

I highly recommend Croydon too.

I'm so glad to hear all these positive responses from croydon!

Hi leopuppy04, I trialled with my last border at Croydon and did the Advanced/demo class with the one before that. Got in trouble again about the tricks! Even someone else in the class said that they wished the instructor would leave me alone about it. I had taught pup to touch though and he rolls over on his back to have cream applied to his itches so they were my tricks!

Also got in trouble for using a clicker! My puppy teacher had said we could use them but this instructor seemed to think they weren't allowed in class.

What a shame about your instructor. Most are fine with 'old triallers' doing what they wish in class.... or so i've heard. I know when I had my current dog thru basic 1&2 there were people only doing 15mins and then leaving... I am planning on doing the same with my next dog. Got in trouble for using a clicker?!?!?!? Bugger - I use mine all the time and have never been told otherwise.... most instructors have actually asked me how i've found it, and i've always given the affirmitive. Just think - soon you'll be outta the class

When I used to train at a private club, we experimented with our own dogs and found that separate release words didn't work, the dogs reacted to the *sound* more than the actual words, so they would release on another word anyway. So the question is: what do you do then, if one dog releases on the other's word? I don't think correcting them for releasing themselves does any good at all, nor is it fair. We tried it, you have to be extremely consistent with correcting the dog that releases themselves, and if you are doing distance work and they get up and run off, then it becomes self rewarding behaviour anyway. Consequently you need to up your correction level depending on how rewarding it was to the dog and you end up in a never ending chain....if you get what I mean.

You raise an interesting point. I have thought about this and already previously worked on this with current dog. What you say is true IF you have not trained the dog to listen to what you are saying. eg: My dog has to wait for a command before eating his dinner. When he had this down pat I would say words such as "spaghetti" in the same tone I say his command. When he goes for it - I would then gently correct him and make him wait again. It only took a few turns before he knew he had to wait for the all special command. Yep even to the point that when he went back to the breeders for a holiday (I forgot to tell them he had a release command) he was sitting and waiting for his dinner. They tried every word they could think of but he wouldn't budge.... well that is until he decided if he didn't eat he'd miss out *g*! But it does show that you can teach them to pick up on words as opposed to the actual command.

As for training the dogs together - mine is a terror when I train other dogs (anyone who has been around me KNOWS how noisy he can get... oh the TEMPER on him!!!). So obviously lots of training with this (we have already started, and he is getting MUCH better, but for some reason thinks it is simply unheard of for me to train one of the dogs he should be playing with *g*!). So we will be starting with one in the crate and the other out with me, or one tethered and the other one out. Obviously i'd use their names if I wanted one to do a task and not the other.

I was looking more at bridging. Release for me is a no-brainer. I personally want two different ones coz if one is in a stay I don't want them both to break. They will even sound different. Leo is on "FREE" and the next "Party' - obviously Party being two syllables will sound a little diff. The bridging is that what if I want to bridge one and not the other... hence why i'm lookiing at using two diff.... but I don't know if my brain will cope . But then if they are not going to be trained together would this be an issue

thanks to everyone for their suggestions. Looking forward to hearing more

Wagalot - Yep another aussie - but not for a bit yet.... same lines as my cheeky man!

BTW I forwarded someone to you re:business - did they ever contact you?!

Hello all,

Well i'm looking at getting a new dog soon and was wondering what people do in terms of their training. Particularly with commands etc. I am planning on using two different release commands as when I release one I don't want the other to get up also. But what about the bridge word? Would it matter if that is the same? I don't think it would as I also use clickers and I would hate to think I have to carry around two of those too. any one got any tips/suggestions?

This is my first time with two dogs if ya can't guess

Now back to puppy waiting mode

Just another thought - I am assuming that your dog is a pup by the picture..... are you training your dog when it is hungry?? ie: lloong time before dinner? usually that will get dogs to train at their best and work for their food. I agree with another poster - use their dinner to get them to work. Only unlike them, I still get my boy to sometimes work for his meal - but then he'll work for dry food!!!

Argh! Shoemonster there must be something against 'clicker trainers' today. I just lost my post too!!!!

Ok - so what I was going to say was - well said SM. I am also a clicker trainer and I love it. Once you get the timing right I find it a great communication tool between you and the dog. I also love the game of 'shaping' as you can really see the clogs turning in your dogs head! It is also a great tool for tricks as it seems to get the message across a lot faster!

Can someone plz post a link to H20's thread as I did a search and couldn't find it!

I hope this doesn't seem like I am trying to push you here tadpole! Just trying to give you the info! Croydon costs about $50 for the year.

I am struggling a bit with Croydon to be honest as the basic obedience seems very geared towards the pet dog owner. There are things I don't want to teach my dog to do but it is like they have decided that dogs should do certain things and you have to do those things to get through basic 1 & 2. i.e. have to teach a trick to pass. I just want to get into the trialling class!

Jules - if that is what you want to do - can u talk to your instructor about it??? Are you a first time trialler? How about explaining to the instructor that you are heading toward trialling and see what suggestions they have for you? I guess we have to look at it and say that 90% of dog owners simply do want a good, well behaved pet, so clubs need to tailor for that. Also - don't underestimate the value of teaching tricks and stuff. Eg: Matwork can help you with SFE's (being touched everywhere) and sending your dog to the box in UD (ie: sending from a distance!). For tricks - how about teaching 'speak' which is used for UD, touch - which is great for precision heeling, or just a fun trick that will 'pep your dog up' in the ring - just ask crashtestdummy about how she does this with Moses!

come down to the trial ring one sunday and have a chat to us!

Croydon is positive. Bob and I love it. They do use food, but I have a feeling that they stopped the target sticks recently.

Yes and no - there was feedback from 'clients' who said that they didn't see the point of it (this was in large numbers) so now people can have the elective to do it as part of their 'tricks'..... the bestest thing I ever taught my dog ;)

I highly recommend croydon :p

Thanks everyone!

All the clubs you guys have suggested are too far and the one I joined is the nearest club that does agility to me. Im in Box Hill but I don't mind going half an hour or so away if I have to.

I'm thinking I might go back and just train the way I want to with positive reinforcement if I can't find anywhere else.

A. & A.

How about Croydon Obedience Dog club - positive methods and a really good agility set up. Only about 20 mins away from you. PM me if you want more info .... Bit further out but there is a really good agility club in Doveton - Action dogs - I live in Croydon and it takes me about 40 mins. From Forest hill it took around the same time just to give you an idea.

Cheers ;)

you can use ANYTHING as a treat. Usually I go and buy it in bulk and like shoemonster freeze it in ziplock bags and then bring them out when I need them. I like to have variety too coz even the yummiest treats can loose their charm if used too often:

Cheese

Devon (remember to leave some for the dog)

raw meat

cooked meat

roast chicken

4 legs

Those really disgusting, squishy dog VIP rolls things... ewwww (apparently they taste good)!

Chicken chunkers

4 legs - Doggy cool stuff (like chicken chunkers)

schmackos

Good O

Natures Gift (dry)

Advance Dry food *g*!

dried liver (which u said ur guy doesn't eat!)

lol - I think u get the drift.... oooh and sometimes I use toys.... we have a long list of those too.... like I said - we like variety and of course 'spoilt' doesn't come into the equasion

I like food that I can throw so I tend to keep the pieces to a 'viewable' size. Chicken didn't work to well for this as it tended to crumble.... everything else (especially the advance!) was perfect for this!

Good luck!

PS - all of these can be found at the supermarket, mostly in the cold dog food section

Ok I just finished today too! For all #28 students - it was a great day and i'm gonna miss u :D ! Razz - who are u?!?!?! PM me if you like - i'm trying to keep tabs on everyone ;)

what were your favourite topics and why?

Hmm this is a hard one - i'd have to say Canine behaviour naturally because without this you couldn't have firm grounding for being a dog trainer and without an interest in this you wouldn't be here in the first place :D !

I also really enjoyed Nutrition as this is often something that we don't think about that may be causing a behaviour issue. Was really good to cover this.

I loved Robert Holmes' stuff on Behaviour problems also - getting some info from a vet in the field etc, was very interesting :D

Who were your favourite instructors and why?

Ok i'm going to have to go with the general thread here - Julija, Owen, Boyd, Steve Austin.

I guess it is because these guys have a passion in the field and the way that they relate the classes across is really good and keeps your attention. Their explanations are also really good and I found them easy to approach.

Steve Austin - what can I say - why wouldn't you enjoy a lecture from him!! LOL - he is very knowledgable and soo easy to approach and willing to help you out.

What did you get out of the course?

A wealth of information and the confidence to instruct a class. A great network of friends who I can hopefully keep in contact with and discuss 'doggy' issues with should we ever have problem dogs that we need help with *g*! The thing that I gained the most from the course was seeing that there is not ONE way to train a dog. Sure - there can be preferred methods and Joe Bloggs may not agree with mine, but I can now stand firmer and stronger in the ways I want to train my dogs and teach others to train dogs because of my PERSONAL experience and not through heresay - that is by far the most I have gained through the course.

Good question HR! What about you - what do you think of us students :p !!!

What a sad story. I don't think you can blame the breeder though.... there are pros and cons of either desexing or not, and the breeder made the decision on what she thought was best. I just hope there isn't a mandatory law being passed saying that all dogs need to be desexed before 12wks of age etc..... that would not be pretty. I think it is up to the breeder to decide, but as Kirty pointed out - it seems you can't win either way

Thanks guys I'll check them out. I was looking at stuff oustide of ebay but i'll have a look there too!