Just Midol

That's the fella! For some reason I was remembering Monk Thank you very much! Gizmo ate my book I took my notes in. I had typed most of it up but hadn't gotten to the page of authors yet.

At the NDTF course they mentioned someone a few times who said something about dogs learning fastest when there is a sharp contrast between right and wrong or something like that. Anyone know who they were talking about?

From my perspective, nothing. But you've lost control of him which is the key. It might not directly be because the dog is dominant, but it is a dominant action in my opinion, as he is ignoring the control you have. Subordinate dogs should do what the Dominant dog tells it to do - that's how a social hierarchy works. If the dog doesn't listen to the pack leader then it isn't a Subordinate dog, if the dog fails to do so, then it is no longer a subordinate dog imo. Is there neutral territory where the dog is neither subordinate or dominant? IMO, yes, and that's a stage where the dog is fighting for the dominant position which is just as bad if not worse than being the dominant dog. This is all assuming the dog has learnt that there are consequences for ignoring the directions of the pack leader or dominant figure in the hierarchy.

This is where I turn into a martial arts hippy. A dog does not have an influence of control over me. If one of my dogs doesn't do what I ask I'll assess the situation to work out what went wrong, but I would only be subject to an influence of control if I lacked self control. It is still up to me how I respond. Does the DOG think he has influence or control over you? If he ignores what you said, then he has just gained control. Yes?

I disagree with your definitions of dominance and defiance though You're discussing dominance hierarchy, I'm discussing dominance. They are two different concepts to me.

Yes, I do view it as dominance. Dominance is simply control and power. When I did something my parents told me not to I did so because I didn't care about their control or power, they had none over me. It was an act of dominance. They weren't the "boss" of me, I was my own "boss". They are doing what is favourable to themselves, which is exerting control. They shouldn't be, it is dominance. They should be doing what I say. They know I am their leader, boss, but they shrug it off as though it doesn't matter.

I include control in the place of influence for dominance. So for me, dominance: "Power and control over others" From the dogs perspective, if he disobeys me when he knows the command he thinks I don't have control over him, so he thinks he can do what he likes, which is control.

Yes that is a much better word. I was just mucking around when I said arrogance hence the laughing icon. I know next to nothing about cats so really have no idea what they are thinking and my cat always comes as he knows he is going to get fed or get a pat he likes both. Ok say you have taught your dog a straight recall by adding a mild adversive when the dog doesn't come straight to you. You want your dog to recall straight to you over some bindies and the dog knows they are there (found that out by going to where the dog is at the time so is reluctant to experience them again) so therefore doesn't come straight to you, arcs around the bindies (takes the risk of experiencing the mild adversive). I'm inclined to think the dog is opting for the lesser of the two evils, not being dominant. cheers M-J Ohhh, yes, in that example I would not say it is dominance.

Because arrogance is having excessive pride in yourself. My dogs don't. They have dominance, they aren't proud, they just don't want to do what I say (sometimes).

Because it is very common for people to screw up their first time grooming attempts, far more common I'd argue than dominance issues are. They leave it too long to handle the puppy, they don't get it used to the tools before using them, they don't ask anyone to show them the proper technique, and when they finally get around to it they go way too fast. The first time the dog even sees the brush or the clipper or whatever it is 8 months old and it completely freaks out. You don't have to cut the quick to get this result. Then the owner freaks out because they didn't think it would be so hard and if they are responsible they ring a groomer (who will quietly on the phone at the prospect of dealing with another completely green dog) or if they are irresponsible they just leave the dog to turn into a matted clicky-clawed mess. Edited to make the eyerolly work Ahh yep, now I get you. I wouldn't have used the nail clipping example but I see where you're coming from. So if a cue you have given the dog will cause it more pain than you have used to correct your dog with in the past, the dog is being defiant therefore dominant in your mind, not avoiding an unpleasant experience and opting for the lesser of the two evils in the dog's mind? cheers M-J I don't get you. Use a specific example. Dogs don't know something will hurt unless it has hurt them in the past. If the dog doesn't listen to me, with a known command then he is being dominant as he is using power and control which is in my hands. Dominance is power and control, the dog attempts to exhibit control, dominance.

I've got no problem with collars, I just have a problem with the check chain. I use check chains but imo, in competition, they should be off the dog.

Thyroid is what I was thinking of. I'll have to get him to the vet.

Meh. Dog knows what I expect, dog chooses to ignore me. Dog is being dominant. It's that simple for me. Dominance is control & power. If the dog feels he has control or power over me (by ignoring me) then it's a dominant action. I correct it & put the dog in his place.

If someone injures there dog when clipping the nails and a fear response is created then it is a completely different scenario, and I don't even know why you bought that up as an example.

Guess so. Doesn't really bother me, when I get the desire to do obedience I'll do it regardless but it makes it far easier for me if I can leave a check on them. (desire means when I feel my dogs wont embarass me )

Yeah but if the chain doesn't mean anything why have it on the dog? If you're not allowed a positive, a toy, then you shouldn't be allowed something assosciated with corrections either.

Gizmo is putting on weight. I've cut his food down, giving him a leaner form of mince and giving more excersize yet weight is piling on. I also dropped his intake when summer hit. Are there any health issues which could be going on which is causing him to gain weight? He is being fed the right amounts, excersize is fine yet his weight is increasing!

Ohhhh, that's nice. I'm considering getting some agility equipment and seeing how Gizmo goes at it. He loves running, but I'm not sure if he'd enjoy jumping and walking on seesaws and such but I'll try!

I've been meaning to grab that book but I haven't gotten around to it. It sounds fantastic. Our day on shaping and such was spent with the owner of southern cross animal stars, a lady called Julie and her dog flick. It was great, the dog was just so happy to perform. Incredibly intelligent dog and uber cute. Made me want a BC http://www.southerncrossanimalstars.com.au...k27s_trick.html The amount of people who keep training once their dog has lost interest in their motivator astounds me. I noticed it when I was with the NDTF at the first centre. The dogs lost interest in the ball or tug yet they try and force the thing in the dogs mouth. Same with food. "Hey, this dog doesn't want my food anymore... Maybe if I force his mouth open and shove it in he'll enjoy it" - it was driving me insane! Huski, why thank you

Yes, but dogs become collar smart very quickly - it's much easier to teach the dog it only has to behave with the collar on than it is to train the dog properly. I'm willing to bet that the majority of those who use chains on their dogs couldn't perform the obedience excersizes very well if they were forced to take the chain off and throw a flat on.

I tried to find you at the end but you had disappeared! At the start I was going to say who I was but then something happened and you left. I was the only guy there Other than Owen of course. Your centre is actually one I could see myself going to, we don't have any like yours here on the sunshine coast. Pity it's a little too far to drive to. Btw, you are shorter than I imagined you to be.

But will you ever be able to get his desire for the tug higher than the food, genuine question here as I don't know your dog I know in my sibes, if I tried hard enough they would go for a tug but I know they'll never prefer the tug over food, as much as I want them to. I wouldn't train 30 per minute anyway, so that speed is irrelevant for me. I just don't do my repititions that fast but then I also don't drill train my dogs, once they know the command (which should only take 5-30 reps depending on how I am doing it) then I "train" the command on our walks so using a tennis ball and fetch wouldn't hinder my progress. If my dogs would drill, I'd do it An example here is with recalls I've figured out an awesome way to reward my dog. They can't run away from me, but can run to me. If you read the threads on Sibes I started a few weeks ago you'd know they love running & it's an intrinsic reward, so the actual recall has turned into a reward for them. Granted, it isn't proofed yet but it's a start. I am considering teaching them a specific send away that allows them to run, so that I can use their desire to run as a reward for other things. If they want to do it, then I should use it! My current belief is that you should use what the dog wants the most at that given time. So if I was building my dogs desire for a tug I'd either not train while I was building drive or I would continue using their primary motivator whilst training and keep the drive building seperately. You should try just throwing the ball at the ground near your feet so it bounces, not so it goes 20-30m away. I did this at the NDTF block training with one of the drivey dogs (a border terrier or something) and I could reward him with the toy and have it back in my hand in under 5-6 seconds. I could have thrown it 10-20m but with this dog it didn't matter, he just wanted the capture. 5-6 seconds still isn't 30 in a minute but it's not too bad. I've never done a lot of free shaping. I hope to try and use it to teach gizmo to play dead as a practice. ETA: Obviously you know I am also a beginner in drive training, so not only am I trying to offer some rather simplistic advice based on what's worked in my limited experiences but I want to hear what you think of what I say (that sentence sounded really, really bad.)

I guess that would depend on how you train, and what level of drive your dog has. The one advantage of prey drive is its usually stronger than food based drive. Horses for courses. Prey drive has nothing to do with it - in the space of 2 minutes you can do far more repetitions rewarding with food than you can by throwing a ball where you might only get 3 throws and 3 behaviours in the same time period. You may not get the same attitude using food but you can do more repetitions. Even if it takes longer why would you use food if you know the dog would prefer a play or prey? It seems kind of stupid. ETA: Unless food is enough of a motivator I guess. The one thing the NDTF has drilled into me is that the primary motivator is what the dog wants. We don't chose what the dog wants, the dog does. ---- I wouldn't throw the ball away from me, I'd bounce it and the dog can grab it from just infront of me, that's enough.

They allow check chains though?

Can you have a toy on you? Visible to the dog but not being used till after?