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Just Midol

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  1. Just thought I'd post up a review of the NDTF block 1 so that others who are interested can have a look at what I thought of it. We had 6 people in our group which was good as it allowed for discussion and you get to know each other. Almost everyone there has decent experience with dogs, from obedience instructors to breeders to vet nurses and boarding kennel workers. In terms of length of experience in dogs I probably lost that competition but I don't care Be warned, these are actually diary entries so some of it is not relevant but too bad, I've only edited out a few things. Tis long, and I don't care about spelling errors. Day 1 Started at 2.30pm and ran through till 6pm. I didn't expect to learn much on the first day and my expectations proved to be true, but it was still a very useful day to attend. I already knew most of the theory discussed (basic fundamentals of training, things like the 3 phases) but knowing the theory and knowing how to explain the theory are two different things so I did learn things that would be useful when it came to teaching or passing on what I know (when I know enough to do so.) You're encouraged to question what the trainers say, and naturally, I am already not in 100% agreement with the instructor, mostly on whether the e-collar could be used to train a dog new things but I am here to learn, not argue, so I didn't argue about it. A few good discussions popped up, one about whether dogs have deductive reasoning. I came out of that discussion with my previous thought reinforced, that dogs do have a form of deductive reasoning. It's not the same as what we have but I do believe it exists in animals, I don't really agree with the black and white distinction of deductive reasoning and "human" emotions, if a dog can feel "happy" then why can't it feel "love"? If a dog can feel "anxious" and "fear" then why can't it feel "love"? It might not be identical to the love we feel, but it exists imo and is entirely unrelated to training We also discussed the immunisation and socialisation issue which I attempted to plug Jean Dodds and mentioned I only immunise in the first year and I didn't get insulted once! Wooohoo! Michelle was a very good speaker (our instructor for the day) and manages to communicate very effectively, which was fantastic. She wasn't pretentious either which is a huge bonus which is uncommon in dog training. I'd have no worries spending a year learning from her, or training with her which is something I can rarely say. Anyway, that's about it for Day 1. Now to Day 2! Day 2 Day 2 started off well, picked up @ 8.15am and went for breakfast at McDonald's even though I just had Kangaroo steaks, Eggs, Baked Beans and Toast for breakfast but it was good anyway. We met the rest at an obedience venue (name removed) to observe how they taught and what we thought they did well, did not do well and could improve on. Some of the other students had trouble removing their preconceptions and spent a great deal of time discussing what was being done wrong rather than taking the positives from the instructors. The instructors were pretty successful but I didn't think it was wise focusing on handler praise when most dogs respond better to food and prey based rewards (including play) but what they were doing worked. They were very correction orientated, the first few levels of people seemed to be a bit shy and not willing to act like fools to get the dogs attention and praise. The higher level clients were happy to do this though. I learnt a lot about what to do and what not to do should I ever run obedience classes. We went to lunch next then headed over to the kennels where we had a discussion for a few hours on the above, it was an interesting discussion with many questions and comments posed. I took a lot from it. Whilst I haven't learnt much actual theory yet (though a few minor things have been great) I've learnt how to articulate what I do know, and how to teach others what I do know. After this, we did some handling. We got very good feedback and were "forced" to choose dogs we normally wouldn't handle. I worked with a small cross cattle dog which was about the size of a cavalier. We went through finding which motivator worked, which I already knew how to do but it was good anyway as I could see subtle signs in other dogs of different sizes, breeds and temperaments. First little one had very intense prey drive. Had a lot of fun with him, had him loose leash walking, sitting and focusing in no time at all. Next I got to use a little terrier, he was a blast. Completely uninterested in me, and food, but bring out a squeaky toy and he was just as intense as my previous dog. I then moved onto a Pomeranian which was interesting, as a Spitz breed I do have a bit of experience with similar breeds but this one was a bit different. While it had prey drive, it wouldn't touch an item once it stopped moving or grab hold of a tug but I suspect it was now getting tired. Once we moved back into the shed, we got some good feedback from the instructor and another student who came and watched. Since we all had experience with dogs our handling time was cut down but the instructor (Glenn) wished he had a camera to film it as apparently he has never seen a group perform so well (gain a dogs trust so quickly, find the motivators and get their basic obedience and just generally have no qualms about acting like clowns) which was fantastic feedback to receive and really impressed me. We discussed the training toolbox and what kinds of items (theory & practical tools) as an instructor we should have in it. Drew was also a fantastic instructor, I was very impressed by both his manner of presentation and knowledge. I love trainers who can engage me and keep me interested, which he succeeded in doing. Like Michelle, I could learn a lot from this guy and would have no problems seeing him for training, or referring people down here to him. Anyway, back at 6.00pm and will probably be asleep by 7.30pm (it's 6.33pm right now) as this course really wears you out. It's a lot of information to take in. Tomorrow we have a session with Owen which should be great. I'm now hoping to dedicate one day a week to training dogs at the local shelter, specifically aiming to use different methods and not fall back into what I am comfortable with so I can gain more experience as dogs dictate the methods, and I want experience in all methods of training. I do want to specialise in Huskies and the Spitz breeds though as I feel they require a unique training method due to how stubborn they are. Day 3 Today was an extremely energetic day. We stated off covering everything we have done previously and I heard more negativity about the previous obedience club. It appears to me that one or two people in my course need to take some of their own advice. They complain the club uses too much compulsion and not enough praise but not once have I heard them say something positive about someone else's handling or a clubs practices. We went on to discuss running socialisation classes and I soon realised whilst I do socialise my dogs, I probably do it wrong. I don't expose them to near enough and I have written up a check list with a huge amount of items on it which I'll be using in the future (it spans multiple pages) it also taught me a few things about recognising dangers when dealing with items which may make a dog in a group anxious and the possible side effects and unintended consequences of such behaviours or actions we direct the group to make. We had to split into 3 groups, each taking either a low, medium or high level class. I went with medium, as I find it easy to recognise low level & high level but find it difficult to figure out whether something is medium and always end up going too high or low so felt this was the best challenge for me. Being in medium, I got to pick myself a dog. I went for the Samoyed, not because they are one of my favourite breeds (they are) but because they are very difficult to read body language wise and so the other students could gain an appreciation of dealing with a Spitz breed. He was fine with all 3 levels of socialisation so the owner has done a relatively decent job with him however he was the pisser from hell. I was preventing him from marking as many objects as possible (as he pissed in the water bucket) but failed to protect myself and he marked me, I can't say I was impressed. The one girl who handled the Samoyed when I was doing medium very quickly realised how head strong Spitz breeds are and how independent they are, not to mention their persistence. For our medium level, my team member and I decided on three things which we considered medium intensity: 1) A rake. 2) Gloves. 3) The lawn mower running, but not moving. For the rake, we raked around the dog, bumping the rake into the dog and in some cases raking the dog itself. Our theme was gardening so when raking if your dog gets in the way you may hit him so we felt it was important a dog is socialised to this and considered it to be of medium intensity. The trainer agreed with us which was great. The Gloves was a good idea, but we managed to get it wrong. We had the handlers put the gloves on and handle their dogs in all directions with the gloves on. A better idea in my opinion would have been for myself, the instructor, to put the gloves on and approach the dogs from the front and go for their faces (as this is a medium intensity session) or to throw the gloves near the dogs. The lawn mower is where I made an error with a dangerous situation. Earlier one of the dogs had been eye balling a 4 month old puppy, so we separated them. I didn't actually know why they were separated which is one of my errors because: a) I should have asked why my partner was separating them. b) I obviously wasn't observant enough. Anyway, so I put these two dogs next to each other. The instructor Owen halted the class and notified me of my error so I moved the larger dog out, and the smaller dog into the shade. Problem fixed. The reason this error was dangerous was we were dealing with an upper medium intensity item, a lawn mower. If the dog got anxious and redirected, it is likely the puppy would have suffered for it. The enticement starts here. Owen noticed a fire around 2km away, initially we weren't phased as it didn't look severe but it got bad enough that we had to stop what we were doing and moved inside. One of the students however was very stressed so we decided to leave the venue. Upon leaving, it was decided we'd evacuate all of the cats from the centre so we piled them into our 4 cars (students) and left (but Owen and myself were going to return). Upon returning, we found out they were evacuating the entire kennel, the CFA had advised us to get out immediately. The problems started. Management couldn't decide what to do, the entire thing was a curfuffle. We have a huge fire on our doorstep (wind blowing the other way though) and no one would hurry up. We started the evacuation at 1.30->2.00pm or so and we didn't get to our first location till around 5.30. Moving 70 dogs and 15 or so cats is no easy task but it should have been done quicker. At the first location we decided to move to a kennel, some kind people had offered to board the dogs and cats. Some of the students got lost and some animals spewed and pee'd in her brand new car (4 days old) and the kennels are organising payment (or the NDTF, not sure who is) which was great. Overall, terrible evacuation and should not have been done the way it did, if the wind was coming in the opposite direction it would not have been pleasant at all. I've learnt that having a fire management plan is useless if you don't perform full practices before fire season. On the plus side all humans and animals were successfully evacuated before the wind turned (but the fire didn't impact the kennels). I ended up arriving back at my cabin at 8.00pm, was a long day, not as stressful as I thought dealing with a bush fire would be - I managed to keep my stress and anxiety levels relatively low and I only wish I could have been more helpful, but I didn't know what to do as no one could direct me but I did cart 3 dogs out and Owen took 7, so without me only 3 of those would have been evacuated and the other students probably took around 10 cats and 7-8 dogs at least. The benefits of hindsight. Owen was a very, very good trainer. I learnt a lot today on socialisation techniques from an instructors perspective. He is going to make up the other 2 hours another day as we were obviously cut short (from our luring session) which should be interesting as I am not very skilled at luring. Tomorrow we're with Julie and a thing I am interested in learning more about which is shaping (mostly the methods usually deemed "positive") and clicker type work. Day 4 What a day! I learnt a lot today. I always used the clicker as a "treat marker" where she uses a clicker as an "event marker", the difference being you don't load the clicker before using it. Naturally I chose a large dog, a young pointer around 7 months old. He wasn't food driven though so I replaced him with my bud Benji, the Samoyed. He is food driven, but only wants to work when you get down to his level. He was a typical Spitz, very head strong, independent and would have worked far better in a different environment as there was simply too many distractions for him. I did lure & free shape a sit successfully in him but it wasn't exactly rocket science. I managed to get marked twice this time. I moved onto an older Border Collie next, unfortunately I got frustrated and while I didn't take it out on the dog I still feel guilty for it so I'll make sure he gets some love tomorrow. He didn't take to luring into the drop at all, and he needed to be guided but since we were doing a hands off session I couldn't. He was uber affectionate. More negativity though, insulting, insulting, insulting. I had to bite my tongue as it was just driving me insane. They evacuated poorly, but it wasn't all bad and overall they succeeded. The NDTF is shouting us dinner for the huge hassle in the fire evacuation which in my opinion was entirely unnecessary but it's a nice gesture anyway and if free food is offered I am there. Short entry today, too exhausted. Day 5 Drew took us for the morning again as the original person couldn't make it due to some dramas which won't be posted on a public forum. It was our introduction to compulsion workshop, this is where I actually know what I am doing as I mostly use compelling & compulsion with my Huskies as it's really the only thing that works once I've busted through the teaching phase. It was nice being at home and actually knowing what was going on for once. I still learnt things though, mostly how to teach others and how to troubleshoot problems. A few things that are relevant when taking classes. I also did a bit more work on luring, though luring is one of my least favourite techniques, a better way to word that would be I am not very skilled at luring For some reason today I made a few terrible choices with dogs. First I took a lab that had no real drive (food or prey) and was not social with me at all, her "boyfriend" was much better, very affectionate and learnt relatively fast via compulsion. I also did some work on a few random mutts and the Pomeranian. Next we got into our complex tricks workshop with Glenn. This was very interesting and I realised that I've been teaching complex tricks in an inefficient way. We received our complex trick assignment and since I can and have trained a few already I am going for a hard one, climbing up a ladder and back down a ladder which is on the roof. If I succeed in this, then I'm also going to get the dog to carry a bucket up and down, and then add picking up balls/large sticks from the roof and throwing them into the bucket. That way, I can throw the balls on the roof and get him to go and retrieve them for me. It'll be tough though and I doubt I can pull it off since Gizmo is a bit scared of heights but hopefully it'll work. It isn't the ideal way to teach a complex skill but since it is only required that I do the ladder climb I figure I'll start with that just in case I don't succeed in the rest. We did our practical work and were severely limited in dogs, everything had just been fed and for some reason the kennel girls would only let us take out the two labs, the pomeranian and the fourth I can't remember. It took me 2 hours to get the girl lab to warm up to me but the two labs also suffered separation anxiety which made it tough. We did a bit of targeting again (did some yesterday) which was good as I am learning techniques in a few different dogs now. I could do this all in my dogs, but all of my dogs learn in a similar manner so it has been enlightening to use the techniques on different dogs as it helps me pick when I should use x technique and when I should use Y. Throughout these days I am slowly being reinforced in my views on certain trainers (the more popular TV trainers and outspoken trainers) on the methods they use, and how they only really push one method. I'm learning that it doesn't matter what technique you start with as you just keep trying till you find one that works. There is no technique that works the best on most dogs, or even the majority. After using the e-collar I love the tool, and I don't believe there is any dog that it can't be used on but I'm realising that it might not be the best tool for the individual dog. It is becoming my philosophy to use whatever it takes to get the best result the quickest using all 4 quadrants of training. We had an interesting discussion about Ian Dunbar and they were speaking about how his entire dogs meals are fed in training and he recommends people do the same. I came up with two major issues with this: 1) My dog eats 2kg minimum of barf a day, yet I spend very little time training him. What is his solution? 2) The primary motivator for plenty of dogs isn't food. If the primary motivator for a dog is not food then it is moronic to use food as the primary motivator. Just in this block, roughly half the dogs I have worked with have had a prey drive level which exceeds their food drive level, so if these numbers apply to the general population of dogs then he is recommending that roughly half of the people training use a training method that will not be the best option for their dogs. I've never read his books, but if this is true, I am disappointed. Whatever it takes. I also find it odd at how people approve of one form of negative reinforcement, but don't approve, or agree with another form of negative reinforcement. We were doing the forced retrieve with a lab this afternoon and we did it with two leads, one a tie back and the other being pulled forwards to create discomfort. When the dog took the retrieve item in his or her mouth the pressure on the leash was released, but when I speak about doing the recall with the e-collar I get looks as though I torture my dog, whatever, I'm open to all methods and it doesn't bother me if someone else isn't. We do more luring and head collars tomorrow which should be fantastic. Anyway, utterly exhausted so I'll be going to bed now (8pm) for a 7am rise. Day 6 The start of Day 6 was interesting, was picked up at 9am or something and I knew I recognised the instructor but couldn't pinpoint who it was. It was none other than.... ERNY! It was an interesting session on using head collars. I've come away with a new respect for them and whilst they're still probably not my preferred tool and I'd rather use a training collar I can still see some occasions when I'd recommend a head collar over a training collar, and it's useful to know how to use one. I am hoping I can get some experience using them on some rescue dogs at the local shelter. It was tough as we were pressed for time and I'd have loved to spend a lot more time (an entire day) on this subject alone as it was interesting both proving my previous ideas wrong, and using them on a wider array of dogs would have been very nice but we can't get everything our way. Worked with a fat Labrador and a weird black dog with the head collars. We used the Gentle Leader and the Halti. I'd like to get a few head harnesses for myself now that I've realised how useful they are but given that the different collars are useful in different situations and multiple sizes are required it gets very expensive. I finally cleared up the negative reinforcement/positive punishment issue I had, so now I have a more complete understanding of the four. I was getting confused on when it was positive punishment and negative reinforcement in the sense of using the e-collar for broken stays. I'd hold the stim down and release it when the dog sits back down so in a way it was negative reinforcement as I applied discomfort and released when the dog complied but technically it is positive punishment as it occurs after a behaviour. I guess this point is probably debatable but I don't care. In the afternoon we continued on with our luring with Owen. This was interesting, I worked with one of the students kelpies first up, a lovely little cross named Zoe who has the mouth of a rodent on crack. I've never lured before so haven't perfected holding treats in the palm of my hand and no matter what I tried Zoe managed to get the food from me before I actually lured her, but that's okay. I used the other Kelpie Ziggy who was fantastic. Easy as, very food motivated and very willing to learn. We got a few kennel dogs after this and my partner (we were placed into pairs) chose a Golden. Fantastic dog, very eager to learn and I've never seen a dog drop so quickly. I accidentally taught her to crawl with her arse in the air but meh, I didn't care. She was uber affectionate and one day I might just want a similar dog (eager to learn, affectionate, lovable, not a pain in the arse husky) but we'll see. We went out to dinner next, Owen, two other students and the course coordinator and shock horror, we talked about dogs for the entire time! I got a chicken parmalefijeig that was the size of a freaking cow. I felt sick after eating it all but it tasted good so it was okay. Tomorrow we have introduction to check chains so it should be interesting. Bed time now, exhausted again (8.35pm). ---- Last 2 days to come at a later date. They include check chains and Kelpie-i's club. Both get positive reviews.
  2. Leerburg

    Couple of you wanted to "borrow" my leerburg DVDs. Shoot me off addresses in the next 3 days and I'll aim to post them out on Friday next week, but I'm slow so I need multiple days to write addresses on envelopes. Will be shooting off all 9 (or 8) - can't remember. I know there were about 6 of you, if you've already given me your address then you're not included.
  3. Kk, disclaimer: This question is GENERALISING. In general, is the average fear aggressive dog going to be more or less aggressive when in neutral territory? GENERALLY. Not ALL dogs. AVERAGE. I made those words capitals because I really don't want to see "all dogs are different" and I know some of you will be thinking it So just humour me
  4. I've Fallen In Love

    I love Basenjis!
  5. Feeding Gsd Puppy On Raw

    I fed mine barf, and he put on around 1kg a week average so his weight gain is normal imo. One of my vets claimed he was growing too fast but his trainer and other reputable people said he was growing fine.
  6. I've Fallen In Love

    Yeah, a GR from the NDTF thing.
  7. Anyone Using Treadmill For Dog?

    Gizmo sort of likes them. The problem is I need to feed a steady stream of treats which defeats the purpose of using it since I am trying to get him to drop some kilos.
  8. Canine Country Barf

    I average my food over a week, not individual days. So each day I roughly calculate how much food he had then at the end of the week I make sure he has had the right amount. Sometimes this results in no food on the last day, sometimes it results in lots of food on the last day.
  9. Recall Question?

    Yeah I use the same method as Erny and Steve except with Gizmo I now use it as punishment. Ya teach a command using the process I outlined very briefly and not very well above. You issue a command just after you put the stim on and then you guide the dog into the position and release the stim as soon as they are in position. I use the e-collar right from the start. You can combine it with positive reinforcement and your progress will be much much faster if you do. I always use food rewards with gizmo when teaching things. Gizmo now recalls without the e-collar 99% of the time - in the past 2-3 months the only times I've pushed the button is when he saw the army of bush turkeys and a couple of Ibis. For some reason Ibis really get to him, a major distraction - ohhh, and I proofed him on kangaroos. I switch between negative reinforcement and positive punishment depending on the circumstances. When I was proofing him on Kangaroos I was using it as negative reinforcement and applying the stim before the command. I have no idea why I changed how I was using it, it was gradual and unintentional. I think what happened was I stopped needing it so stopped using it then on the rare occasion he didn't recall I had to correct him. I've also discovered that the more eager he is to go for a walk the stronger his command response is. We do all training on walks now as I don't have time to do 30 minute walks and then another 15 minutes or so on training. A lot of people assume the dogs are recalling out of fear/avoidance/whatever. They're not, I will consider recording Gizmo recall just to show his enthusiasm... But I dunno if I can find the camera.
  10. Recall Question?

    I train that way sort of. Here is how I did it (with the aid of K9Force). with a long line, let the dog wander away (or move away from dog). Press stim button on e-collar, recall command, guide, release stim1, reward the dog on completion with praise/food/whatever. 1: I release the stim as soon as the dog starts turning to start with and the longer we're at it the longer the stim is on. I tend to turn it off as he is in the process of recalling now. It's fairly hard to "explain" this and much easier to show it. The great thing about the e-collar is it gives YOU a sense of control. Without it even if I managed to get a fairly decent recall into Gizmo I'd always be worried he is going to go off after a new distraction or something. The e-collar relaxes me as I know that no matter what, I have control.
  11. Debunking Dominance

    Anita, did you intend to sound pretentious in that post and treat anyone who uses corrections as inferior dog trainers and imply they are not using their brains? Just curious.
  12. Teething @ 3 Months?

    Are her gums bleeding? And I'd say probably.
  13. No, they don't chew their beds or bowls, they just destroy anything given to them to play with. Bolded bit: Sure that's an option but not the question I asked. Ahhh. Answering the actual question, something I'm not good at. I think it's fair and not fair. I feel meaning giving them a toy then taking it off them I guess if Montu wasn't being raised for security I probably would not dictate how he plays but it would mean he gets very few toys as I have no money tree, and even if I did, he'd eat it. Yay, I answered the question
  14. If my dogs did that I wouldn't get the bastards toys Gizmo doens't "do" toys anyway, he sometimes plays with tugs but only if you just hold it, no pulling. He loves toilet paper, but unfortunately for him, I cbf cleaning it up. Montu doesn't get any toys at all unless it's a tug and I'm playing with him, however, he finds his own toys. He'll play with his water bowl so I have to get metal bowls as he doesn't like those as much. He gets sticks and throws them around, and sits there chewing on the tree. If I feed him in a plastic bowl and forget the bowl is demolished in 3 seconds. He can't have a bad, as that is also gone in seconds. He got a new blanket over his crate last night. Destroyed already. I have a feeling you're dogs are similar to Montu? If so, no, I wouldn't give toys Too expensive.
  15. Scooters? For Running Dogs

    I dunno if my dogs can pull a cart but I certainly cant use a scooter on our property.. Maybe I could add a small engine to the cart to get em going.
  16. By your local government, sometimes. Solution: Don't tell them.
  17. Behaviourist In Melbourne?

    For some reason I thought they were both in Sydney! I think it's caus' I first met Erny in Sydney. No idea why I thought Nekhbet was though.
  18. Behaviourist In Melbourne?

    http://www.fourpawsk9training.com.au http://www.underdogtraining.com.au Both are members on this forum. First is Kelpie-i, second is cosmolo(SP). I wouldn't hesitate in seeing either of them if the need arose and I just happened to be in Melbourne.
  19. Debunking Dominance

    The main problem I have with these articles and people who attempt to debunk dominance entirely is that they don't offer a viable or realistic alternative... That and they're always emotive arguments.
  20. What Is Your Best Piece Of Advice?

    Generally, I don't even recommend puppy school to people unless I can recommend a specific school, which I can't. I don't recommend obedience clubs either unless I could recommend a specific one and there is only one in my area and I think it's crap I generally won't recommend a "positive only" club, I've never seen one I'd recommend... and I would be hesitant to recommend one that uses corrections as a matter of course.
  21. Cruel Training Tool?

    I think it would be very, very easy to use the tool in a manner I'd consider cruel... Surely there are more effective ways though?
  22. Recall Question?

    Yeah, Gizmos fairly confident and definitely knows how to turn the stim off, we've been going for months He recalls of almost everything, before these turkeys I'd have said it was 99% - he sometimes waits a few seconds before recalling once he spots an Ibis.
  23. Recall Question?

    Unfortunately the Turkeys wouldn't return to let me use them in training I can't really be certain whether I got the perfect level (what he could percieve) as he was running away from me but I let go of the stim as soon as he showed signs that he was turning towards me and he never showed any avoidance (that I could identify) so I think I am okay there. Gizmo is pretty switched on though, I'd put money on him recalling off the Turkeys next time. Anyway, good to know I did the right thing. I meant to post up asking how people handle unexpected major distractions a few weeks ago, but I procrastinated. If I had have done it earlier I would have known for certain what to do.
  24. Recall Question?

    Hey Erny, How to you handle an unexpected distraction. For example, Gizmo was fairly well proofed on Turkeys, I knew his working level rose slightly but it was only 3-4 levels. However, one day we encountered a rarity at my house which was a huge group of Turkeys, around 30 of the bastards. Proofed on one Turkey obviously didn't mean proofed on 30 running Turkeys. I had 2 options here: 1) Increase the stim, it would have to go above his working level. It was very obvious working level alone would not do anything. 2) Not recall as Gizmo is too slow to catch Turkeys. I went with 2 to start with as I figured if he did get close to Turkeys then I'd simply give him a correction when he got close but then the Turkeys shot through the neighbours fence so now I had to recall. I had to go about 15 levels higher than his working level for it to be a high enough level of stimulation for him to pull off the Turkeys. So, how would you have handled this? I know I'm suppose to set the situation up so we don't encounter this but we only get the huge groups of Turkeys once, maybe twice a year and I didn't see them when I set out so it was unexpected.
  25. That's a bullshit excuse. A temperament test is no more dangerous than the training information posted on websites and forums world wide. If they don't want to make it public, then I'll assume there is a reason for it.
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