toy dog

after what steve said about the 1st of july they have made steps? to ban inbreeding of close relatives, does anyone have a link to this ruling BTW?? i came across this on the ANKC website 3. Pedigree analysis for all ANKC registered breeds The University of Sydney is assisting the ANKC by conducting research on inbreeding co-efficients of pedigree dog data bases provided by the ANKC Ltd. Early reports show that the level of first degree inbreeding is less than 5% across the breeds studied so far and is considerably lower in many breeds. The ANKC Ltd is looking forwards to ongoing collaboration and assistance from the Genetic Department at Sydney University. To address this ongoing process will require funding from the ANKC. and this one 4. Open pedigree studbooks The Opening of stud books is an area that is strongly opposed by many breeders. Where this has been done as with the LUA Dalmatians, it has been done to counteract the high uric acid problem that affects all Dalmatians. This is a very useful and purposeful exercise. These Low Uric Acid dogs have now been accepted by the Kennel Club (UK). This out crossing was done in the correct manner i.e. the breed selected was- a) of a similar head and body type, b) did not carry additional problems, c) did not carry the specific or target problem i.e. the high urate problem and d) they have avoided doubling up on the dog that was brought in. Where this type of outcrossing is proposed, it should be done primarily to clear/reduce a significant and specific health issue. Great care must be used when introducing any new genetic material. The relative health conditions of each base breed must be well researched, and the resultant progeny closely monitored for a good 10-15 generations for the appearance of any new conditions. Any adverse conditions that develop should be widely notified. This type of outcrossing already occurs in the Miniature Bull Terriers, outcrossing to standard Bull Terriers in order to decrease the incidence of lens luxation - the resultant progeny are not allowed to be bred back into the standard Bull Terrier bloodlines. This is envisioned as ongoing until such time as an accurate DNA test for the condition is developed (which has just occurred in the last few months). Also, albeit on a small scale, intervarietal inbreeding is permitted in Belgian Shepherds.

i wasn't thinking of the gardener i was thinking SS sounds alot like someone i used to debate the same subjects with a very long time ago on here infact. sounds very similar to this other person that use to frequent the boards. perhaps they have come back under a new name? we still don't know who this person is, they aint telling us. You have to love the front of someone who doesn't breed ANKC dogs telling the ANKC people how it should be done ahuh. this other person i knew, was in with dogs for 5 minutes and instantly became an expert, telling me that older wiser breeders that had been with the breed for over 40 years didn't know anything at all so they'd throw around talk of genetics direct quotes from books and delight in watching the breeders look at them in confusion, i think most of them thought who's this turkey.

yepo

i wasn't thinking of the gardener i was thinking SS sounds alot like someone i used to debate the same subjects with a very long time ago on here infact. sounds very similar to this other person that use to frequent the boards. perhaps they have come back under a new name? we still don't know who this person is, they aint telling us.

So toydog, what do you thinkof the British Kennel club haveing done this, they are now an open stud book for all breeds including chi, any dogs that looks like the breed passes any maditory health tests will be registered, 3 generations later the pups are full KC registration ready for export to OZ! good question, considering about a year ago or more the americans had their blue merle chihuahuas and swore black and blue this colour had always been in chihuahuas, when in the last 5-10 yrs it had just appeared there with no history. turns out many breeders many years beforehand had gotten dachunds and crossed them with chis to get this colour so you saw very short legs and also very long backs ever so often. it was decided in chihuahua clubs around the world to ban these american imports so it was done. on the basis we did not want cross breeds into our registries. to give us more faults than we already have in the breed to deal with. so that was that. and i suspect the clubs from around the world who talk to each other might be saying something about that, can't be sure..i certainly wouldn't want my bloodlines i've worked bloody hard on for the last 25 years muddied by crosses with unknown makeup i suspect alot more might feel like this too. in UK chihuahuas are separated by coat i.e. long can only be mated to long, smooth to smooth so breeders over there have complained of it limiting the gene pool

thats a bit scary, we should accept dogs with unknown heritage??? my gosh the world has gone mad. i shudder to think how this is all going to pan out in 10 20 years time, the pedigree dog probably will be extinct by then.

Patella luxation isn't a "disease" at all but a consquence of certain structural issues in the dog's hind legs. Its as endemic in crossbreds as it is in any breed you care to name. Selection for different structure would be as effective as banning inbreeding. Indeed, once you've got a structure in Chi's that mitigates against the risk of PL, you "inbreed" to increase its occurence. But not under the new world order you don't. yeah?? um....looking up the meaning of "disease" it says a morbid condition that affects the body. Morbid meaning unhealthy. So with reference to that i'd say you could call it a disease. sure does act like one. i refer to it as a disease sometimes, other times i might refer to it as a genetic condition. might ask my trusted vet what he considers it to be.

but do we need to know what causes it? sometimes it is dogs bred with a too shallow grove and it is congenital. we are trying to find out all we can by sharing info, talking about it being honest with each other and ourselves also. working great so far, many breeders have come up to me as they know i log all the info i can get, and tell me that they found it in their stock and have then desexed. or they can't show the dog because it has PL. good news. if you were around about 25 years ago or 30 years ago you'd know that that is a great achievement to what it used to be with mouths tightly shut protecting god knows what which doesn't help anyone let alone the breed of dog. heres the low down after 25 years having to deal with it, doing my little experiments, breeding a dog infected will 9 times out of 10 produce a dog affected with it. some breeders tried to cheat nature by putting opposite grades together to get sound FAILED. some breeders tried to cheat the genetic problem by only putting one dog affected to a sound partner. FAILED. the only way we can beat this condition is not breed this genetic problem at all. many breeders agree with this theory. desex infected start again. mini foxie club of Aus had same problem in their gene pool, so they had a scheme going where by they applied the above and it did reduce occourances in that breed of dog to the point where it is rare. the reason why we think it may be. may be polygenic in nature is because we found that dogs with more exercise allowing muscele development, combined with good diet and good genes did help very much.

Well all dogs in the kennel club are inbred. And every breeding of kennel club dogs is doing inbreeding. By definition pedigree dogs are inbred animals. However if they made a law that limited the amount of inbreeding to what is considered safe in humans, I would support that across all breeds. I think that would be a good step in the right direction and would prefer that the ANKC made the change without the RSPCA having to make it a big pulbic welfare issue and a law. Why would you want to advocate in breeding to be limited to what is considered safe in humans - and who will judge what is safe in humans? We dont have anywhere near the information for breeding in humans we do for breeding in dogs. I have 6 generations of one breed in my yard and I can tell you everything you could ask about them and their health and potential issues which may show up - how many humans have that sort of health info for their human relatives ? We practice selective breeding and we have at our fingertiops pedigree knowledge and genetic testing and scoring which we can use to make our decisions - we are talking about selectively breeding purebred dogs not randomly breeding humans! The problem with purebred dogs is that some breeders have been slecting primarily for the way the dog looks - the show ring and you can skirt around it all you like but that has nothing to do with in breeding and everything to do with slection. If you take away the ability for us to in breed all you will get is less predictibility on what diseases might show up and less chance of testing - if you still have such emphasis on how the dog looks and rates in a show ring. I do not think so, I think you can have a breed and with some frequecy outcrossing and not loose your breed. But look if people are happy to take it to the wire withthe governments and the animal welfare groups then go for it. I think you will loose and I think the UK kennel club making all these changes is a direct reaction to the notion that this topic is no longer a dicsussion, it is now a matter of changing or not having kennel clubs at all. I also think that even if the kennel clubs are shut down, even if they ban many of the more extreme breeds, that there is still time then to reorganize and try some different ways to breed dogs. I really do have to leave now for a Dr appointment. Yes of course but that needs to be done with knowledge and science as much as any other breeding does and advocating for in breeding to be made a crimminal offence isnt the answer to finding what will and wont work with any other breeding program. We need to educate breeders to select differently with science not just to run with people who want to choose a supposed cause and bleat about it with out the research to back it up. I never said I wanted to make inbreeding a crime, but I think it may come to that if the kennel clubs can not find some way to regulate the amount of inbreeding then the governments may well step in and do it. The kennel clubs never needed to find a way of regulating it as it was already proven it rarely happened. By the Kennel club bringing in a supposed method of controlling it they said we know it happens, that our members do it and that it is always a bad thing and opened the door for it to be made a crimminal offence. My inside info is that this is definitely on the agenda within a 5 year plan - among other things and everything you see happeneing via TV and other media is pushing exactly that way by design. The kennel club and people who want to simply fall in line and believe that in breeding is a problem and a curse of terrible suffering at the hands of purebred rottenly cruel breeders! From the minute it started - Don B, Paul McG , PDE and every where we turn we are told in breeding is the culprit - but selection is - and you name a group and they have all bought it. And in the mean time yelling about in breeding makes even purebred breeders agree with them without question and that gets them off the hook because the real problem is what they select for not how closely related the dogs they are breeding are. The only thing which may remotely come close in an argument for in breeding is in breeding depression but that over simplifies the whole issue too and none of this is educating anyone - all its doing is ensuring what we have and what we should be doing to get it right will be squashed. Well guess what - purebred breeders line breed , and shock and horror we also sometimes in breed and if you take that away you take away purebred dogs. Wake up Australia. In breeding in purebred dogs is not the cause of the problem inbreeding for certain traits is the problem - selection - not in breeding and it's time we saw the difference. well said.

that dog i found in the pedigree way back that was grossly unsound, i just can't fathom how it was put through as a champion when it moved like that. the judges should be shot. it was that bad it had a hopping gait. it was very obvious even to an untrained eye in dog movement. yet a pretty dog. that is the only thing anyone was ever looking at i think to myself. forsake soundness for prettiness and type.

had to deal with this exact thing in re: PL. after enjoying generations of sound clear dogs 0/0 (and others said that is not possible and i am talking through my hat to have achieved such a thing ) i got a young dog that developed over time grade 3 in one leg. I then back tracked through the pedigrees each and every dog to see which dog he got it from, talked to other breeders looked at photographs and i found one dog with that grading way back in the pedigree, 4 generations back. I use to enjoy viewing videos and i found a video of this dog and viewed movement, she was very bad indeed and it was clear she was either grade 3 or 4. Dog was passed around to several breeders of that time. I then announced it to the other breeders that i got him desexed. this was all hidden and the lady who bred this dog who is not around anymore titled her and bred several times with this same dog. my mother always says and she is right really, you don't know for sure what is hidden in some backyards (sometimes it is different and this is what we aim for) until you breed the dog in question.

we're in the middle of something thats for sure , sure makes for interesting reading. us, ourselves try to avoid this as some people in the past haven't been quite honest and their breeding has been a bit questionable lets just say.....so a DNA test has been ordered from controlling body to find said dogs were infact cross bred (stud) so both parties dogs were de-registered. Even the ones that were mating to the stud. which i couldn't get my head around but there you are. not in my breed another breed of dog BTW. not an ideal situation for dogs not to be true to their paperwork.

thats really cruel, poor dogs. we've come across many shady characters when we advertise dogs not desexed wehen we were just beginning and very green, believing the best in people and find it is not so unfortunately, so now we desex. protect our dogs!

the breeding of dogs is not an exact science even if you do test. as i was asking before SS what is your experience with breeding dogs? you have said you've owned poodles when young and an eskimo dog. thats a bit more information. i have an a dog that is a product of inbreeding on the mothers side. my ex bred this lovely line, the mother was also very nice, she is the product of father to daughter mating i bought this dog well grabbed him becuase i know all of the dogs and how sound they right back to about 7 generation and beyond. i know this line inside and out and the dogs are very sound producing very sound typey dogs. he is not deformed. i also inherited an ooops girl from someone she came to live with me this dog, result of son to mother. she is not deformed. so inbreeding can bring out very good traits. as well as bad as Peter higgins said from ANKC. but no one is listening....

yes it is very complex!!! the testing system is not fail safe either. Some have said in the past that they believe it is polygenic as well. When you have a theory going and you think you may be starting to understand it, there is always something that pops up that discounts it.

Yes the RSPCA has a plan to bring in breeding in under the prevention of cruelty to animals laws whcih would make it illegal to inbreed. Rather than the ANKC telling them to bugger off and that they were wrong its about selection and not in breeding they gave in and now have new rules coming in on the 1st of July which restricts close relatives being able to be bred. That gave the RSPCA the leg up. The fact is that in breeding when used correctly can be a great tool to eliminate genetic health problems and in breeding is what we do - its what makes purebred dogs. There is a big difference between population genetics which are selecting mates randomly and what we do which is sleective breeding after we know our lines and test for known genetic health issues. The breed of dog which has the most genetic diseases is a mixed breed dog. yes! in my long roundabout way this is what i've been trying to say. i don't understand why ANKC are bowing down to RSPCA and letting them tell all of us how it is when they don't know the ins and outs of everything to do with dogs. RSPCA aren't the dog authority on all things dog, ANKC are!

well okay it might clear up somethings SS. but i have alot of breeder friends in our own breed, remember how i told you that our breed has been in existance for over 100 years in its current form and before that they don't really know the origin, some say malta, some say china, some say toltecs which goes back 2000 years IN THE BREEDS CURRENT FORM. getting back to inbreeding, some of my breeder friends have studied the pedigrees of some dogs going back 30-40 years and none of those dogs have been inbred, since then (last 50 years) none of the dogs have been inbred in some lines. i have studied the pedigrees of my dogs as i have a very old line going back about 30 years i have resurected some lines from the past. Many dogs since then have been imported from UK and now some are imported from Canada, USA, and some in future will be spain and other countries, so our blooodlines don't need to be inbred. First about maybe 30-40-50 years ago it was only UK but not any more. i would assume that this is not only happening in the chihuahua (all over Australia mind you) have links to breeders country-wide like a lot of breeders today so we source our dogs from all over even New Zealand, i had an import from here not too long ago myself. but it is happening with many toy breeds and has happened for many years. i wrote an article in DOL here in the breed pages on the first chihuahuas that came to Australia the first 4 chihuahuas but the breed in Australia since then has had many other imports to make up many many varied bloodlines. A breeder thats been with our breed since 1965 has given me more insight to the first chihuahuas in oz that im going to update my article with. So to say all pedigree dogs are inbred is a bogus statement especially today when you see so many imports from many countries.

okay, i want to back up a little. the above quote is that something you cut and pasted or are you stating this? i need something else cleared up, when you and others are discussing "inbreeding" what i term as inbreeding is close breedings, mother to son etc etc. I think what others are terming Inbreeding could mean they are referring to the interbreeding of pedigree dogs of a certain breed. Sometimes certain breeds have no choice but to inbreed as there are very few examples around. the above summary is based on what? experience experimenting breeding test matings with the above breeds? this has been the excuse that many breeders put up "if we get rid of the disease we get rid of the breed"....what rubbish.....if we start eliminating affected individuals in the gene pool we decrease the gene pool some said behind their computer screens and behind my back. So they carry on placing affected dogs in the gene pool sometimes secretly because this is their big excuse. When i debated testing their dogs for patella luxation. At first and it is still the status quo that many don't test so therefore the disease is still rife in our toybreeds. it is common not because the breed will go, but it is common because many breeders do not test their stock before breeding them or sometimes not interested in knowing whether a dog is affected or not so just chuck it in the gene pool. For the past 6-7 years i have been collating any info i can on the disease and reporting to my club members and other breeders. For the last 25 years i have been testing out theories and applying them with my own dogs and so far have been fairly successful. It doesn't make me too happy that someone comes along with their big theories cuts and pastes others theories and basically says that my work for the last 6-7 years is a wasted effort. a wasted effort is what i've been writing about, talking to breeders is it???? sharing info and trying to suggest maybe we should start testing for this condition to try and reduce incidences out of the gene pool. After all i am doing this not for humans but for the dogs themselves and the breed we can all then enjoy healthier dogs. you can have sound little toy dogs in those breeds, i've seen with my own eyes, i've tested out this theor, i've applied and i have won in the past.. i saw asking me a question about something else changing the subject and then posting up an article to prove me wrong and dismiss what i was saying abiout my own breed based on my 25 years of breeding/owning and exhibiting this breed, totally rude. i know there is a problem with some breeders not willing to recognise when we have a problem in a breed and coming together for a common goal, been there done that with my PL articles for many years! As i say becuase i was doing what you are doing now shortstep 6-7 years ago on this very forum, writing about what i found and posting it up and asking questions etc. i got alot of threats, i got talking behind my back as up to no good, in the end i believe breeders are starting to open up but in the beginning they were very much in denial and very closed. Not any more. so please dont' start preaching to the already converted. Asking questions getting breeders to talk about it is a good start don't get me wrong, getting them to think about it and how high incidences are in a breed is a good start too. But also listening to their experiences and concerns is vitally important too its a key to moving forward - together. one more thing: the statement i made that you dismissed so readily, inbreeding is not the only cause of genetic problems, i will elaborate a bit more for you......... dogs can have recessive genes and carriers that appear normal and sound and healthy and then you either double up on these genes if you place two carriers together or even if you only put one in the gene pool. it certainly does happen with patella luxation with some breeders, as we have found testing out this theory many times, this is why it is so hard to reduce the incidences. But a dog cross breed or not (pedigree) can inherit a genetic problem from its ancestors or any one of its relatives in the bloodline. it doesn't have to be Inbred (mother to son, father to daughter, sister to brother) in order for it to have a genetic problem. This is what im meaning. I'll say it again for the upteenth time. it doesn't always come about that some breeders only use the best and soundest individuals in a gene pool sometimes they may use a dog because of its type, because it wins alot etc. many other reasons and forego soundness (seen this done a few times over the years) therefore they are now embedding that genetic problem to come out another time in the progeny or the bloodline. They can't look at the big picture of what it is doing to the breed as a whole they are only looking in their own backyard. Then those same bloodlines are used and we get spreading of a genetic problem. so a vet to say (when a vet of all people should know how it all goes but sadly some don't know the first thing) it is because pedigree dogs are inbred that they have genetic problems is not correct. Any dog can suffer from genetic problems, it doesn't have to be pedigree. So they should have been more truthful and elaborate more but because they don't know about dog breeding and get their info from other sources they are running with it all.....

who is shortstep? i find it interesting that the majority of posts are not in the breeders section but in the general, most of the info that is posted is from reading up about pedigree dogs. is shortstop a breeder of registered dogs? most folks on here are transparent, have pics of the dogs they breed or own and state whether they are an exhibitor or breeder or a dog owner, none of that for you. if posters don't agree with what shortstep writes about your breed and the genetic problems that Shortstep reads up on, then you get all these links and statistics and some such to prove just how wrong you are. if you dare answer anything or get into the conversation your breed is quickly highlighted negatively. so who is shortstep? I dont' know what shortsteps agenda is either? are you from Australia or are you from somewhere else? I don't expect an answer.

Being a PA my boss asked me to source a dog for his family, he wanted a collie so i sourced one for him from a very well known breeder. After that he told everyone in the office how long i've been with dogs etc. etc. and now some of the office staff come to me if they want to know about anything. The boss from the other department came in one day and asked about his wife's JR's as he was having trouble with them not listening to him. So i told him how he could do it and a week later he came back and said it worked. Another lady who works in the office asked about a certain breed she wanted and asked me to help her so i sourced out another breeder for her. I tell all of them about puppy farms and most conclude it is better to either go to a reputable breeder or help save a life getting a dog from a shelter. then those people go and tell other people their families and it spreads. My current boss's daughter that i don't have too much contact with, don't know that well, recently came in after the boss told me that she got a Cav from a reg breeder. I asked her about the puppy and she said no its a Cavoodle so i said oh how cute and went and sat at my desk. I wanted to say something else but stopped myself several times. LOL in the end i couldn't contain myself so i asked her where did she get the puppy from? she said a petshop, i said you know they source their pups from puppy farmers or farms don't you? she answered yes, after we bought the puppy we did some research and was horified of where he could have come from. They are after another dog, so i told her about DOL and she wrote it down as she wants either a dog from an ethical breeder of cavs or a shelter dog.

yep patten street. I agree having to get in your car and go down the street when you have something right next to you is a bit unfair - the people sound like right turkeys.

I can't really disagree with that article. Brings me back to a breeder who forced her two dogs to mate by putting them in a brace, all i heard was the poor bitch screaming. The litter of 3 little pups were prematurely born with no hair and one by one despite the breeder staying up all night with them they died. i took it as not meant to be, forcing nature. we've always had a rule, a bitch who has a C-S gets desexed. Not always does a bitch have a C--S though due to her confirmation not being right, there might be a complication. There are many of us that like to only keep the free-whelping bitches and any bitches that can't are desexed. We all have healthy examples of our own breeds, but what is being portrayed on TV is only unhealthy examples to bring down the pedigree dogs and if we say we have got healthy examples we are either lying or talking out of our behind. They said they are unhealthy because of inbreeding. Then they are saying in the same sentence about selection and what pedigree breeders are selecting are unhealthy examples which is also incorrect. grossly incorrect. i've always had a motto and i know of a heck of alot of other breeders who have the same motto too, if you cant have a free-whelping bloodline to produce sound its not worth having them at all.

Yes, in order to breed a GSD of correct temperament and structure and maintain the breed's integrity, the Germans have put a stringent testing process in place to ensure that non compliant dogs are not bred with faulty traits reproduced. The GSDCA here in Australia who are supposed to uphold the German testing process only complete a 3rd of the requirements of the German Breed Survey which allows faulty traits to slip through what effectively is a quality control net and be reproduced to the detriment of the breed. The German requirements isn't easy and takes a lot of work and/or money to train, prepare and pass such a survey which is probably too hard for the average GSD breeder to undertake so the GSDCA don't do it, hence easy for the breeders, but detrimental for the breed. Personally I would be surprised if the majority of highly rated Australian show dogs had the integrity to pass a German breed survey to be honest and would suspect a large number of our breeding stock put to the test would potentially fail? What's Don Burke got to do with dogs anyway, isn't he supposed to be a gardening expert thank you for explaining that. yes mr burke is an expert on everything haven't you heard??

our breed has breed competitions, sort of like a mock dog show we have a BBQ or share a buffet where everyone brings food and shares it even with people who come along who like the breed. very relaxed atmosphere and gets brownie points for pedigree dogs. we've picked up many new members doing these days. i don't know if other breed clubs do the same but this is our club. DogsVic/VCA also have every year 2 open shows (not champ which is more intense people trying to get points with their dogs) at Caulfield racecourse and it is designed to showcase our dogs. So breeders sit there with their dogs and people scores of them come up and ask questions and we answer them and give out leaflets. Very enjoyable day last time, it was sunny and i got to talk to some people about puppy farms and pedigree dogs how good they are. good day out promoting pedigees. DogsVIC also have a day set up once a year to have a mock dog show, breeders enter their dogs its usually right in the middle of the city in Melbourne and they usually have a huge audience, they have someone with a speaker describing how the dog show is set up and what the judge looks for etc. etc. good PR for pedigree dogs and DOGSVIC should be congratulated on this initiative.

i was walking my dog with my brothers dogs (2 GRs) at a Brighton off leash park and another dog attacked mine. he is a pointer cross in the past we've never had any problems but now i don't know how Jake is going to react to other dogs, for a start im going to take him to KCC park and try walking him through the shows with other dogs that are well under control. and take it from there. i'd managed to train him to be nice and accept strange dogs then this happens we are now i believe, back to square one. if i know the area you are talking about does sound familiar or maybe i am way off the mark, why don't you try the school oval thats down gutheridge parade and corner of patten street? high school with the primary school on the corner. without naming the big town we are talking about, i grew up in this area but haven't lived here for about 15 years now but every so often come back and check out whats going on to visit family thats still in the area. on the weekends i walk Jake in the school oval down the road here its fenced off and completely safe and i notice others do this too. i usually wait until no one is there then let Jake off for a big run. he loves it. just a thought. the veladrome is where they have the dog obedience i think they still do it there don't they? If its not the area im referring to then you won't know what im talking about.