Cesar Millan - Dog Whisperer

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Tess32

So, you're fine with a dog being taken for a walk and expected to walk loose leash behind the owner without ever having been taught?

I cannot see a problem with it. If the dog has been pulling notoriously for years and the owners have no idea how to deal with it, a compulsive method like this works just fine. It gives the owners the quick-fix that they are after and let's face it......a quick fix is what people want most of the time. They don't want to have to implement methods that take weeks or months to achieve - that is what dog trainers do! They just want the problem gone and with this method, Cesar achieves it.

but the dog never appears to have a chance to LEARN this kind of walking

It very quickly unlearns it and re-learns another way. It is much better than continuously yanking on the correction chain IMO.

Ultra short lead, quick and swift corrections, back in position, continue walking.....the message gets through no problem.

As he rightfully explains, it is usually the handler that is the problem anyway, so Cesar taking a dog on a walk and creating a dog with a calmer energy is not going to have much bearing when the owner is still clueless on how to do this.

He leads by example and in many cases, the penny seems to drop for some people.

The dog is *already* calm when he hands the leash back to the Owner, it's a false sense of change.

Nothing wrong with a head start for some. Haven't you ever taught a dog the beginnings of the drop and then let the owners do it....you empower them!

Yes it's obvious that more exercise is a good thing - I just don't feel that is the point.

I am yet to meet a dog who either works all day or leads an active lifestyle and has behavioural problems.

As for the easy fixes, does it really matter if it's 'easy' for Cesar Milan? He is obviously a gifted handler, but 99% of people aren't so don't you agree it would be beneficial for DOGS for him to make a point of explaining that people can't realistically expect some sudden change in their dog?

Yes, I agree with you here Tess32, but then again it's not just Cesar who seems to skip this vital message. None of the other TV trainers ever seem to give it either.

I need to reiterate that I am not a fan of ALL of Cesar's methods, but his message is a good one. Dogs need a pack leader, without it we create an imbalance and due to that imbalance, problems are born. If he went around saying that training can take months, even years (which we all know it does).....how many people would become discouraged??? Lots!

[Erny]

Kelpie-i ..... great posts and very well stated responses :p

I could add to what you've said, but it would only be reinforcing it. And you've said it so succinctly that I know I couldn't do better.

Except for one thing (can't help myself :p) ..... if a quick message can be delivered to a dog (speaking humanely of course - no harm) with such clarity that its learning will be faster, then surely the stress levels of learning a new skill must be less than otherwise. Many people don't seem to consider this when they like to go the 'long way around'. They can't always see the stress, so they presume it is not there.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

Thanks Erny and yes I totally agree.

[BrunoBella]

.... if a quick message can be delivered to a dog (speaking humanely of course - no harm) with such clarity that its learning will be faster, then surely the stress levels of learning a new skill must be less than otherwise. Many people don't seem to consider this when they like to go the 'long way around'. They can't always see the stress, so they presume it is not there.

This is exactly what I found with Bella. Using positive training only she was totally stressed all the time but using a little appropriate correction she is no longer stressed.

[Kavik]

This may be the way you've perceived his message, but the walk is actually used to create the "calm, submissive" state of mind that he talks about and assists the dog in becoming "one with the pack". It's not meant to cure the dog of the problem merely just one tool.

What if your goal is not for the dog to have a calm, submissive state of mind?

[Erny]

What if your goal is not for the dog to have a calm, submissive state of mind?

Why would you not want that?

If you're thinking about the PP dog, remember that the "calm, submissive" state spoken of is to the "leader". A PP dog should be able to exhibit "calm, submission". I would worry if a PP Dog did not sport that quality of attitude to its owner as IMO it would indicate that the owner did not have the respect/control necessary to make the PP a safe dog.

[Kavik]

Maybe its the submissive part - some of the dogs on the show look 'submissive' by the end but not necessarily happy - some look stressed. They don't look the way I would like mine to look while working. I like energetic quick responses and wagging tails. I don't see why you want the dog to look submissive.

[Erny]

Maybe its the submissive part - some of the dogs on the show look 'submissive' by the end but not necessarily happy - some look stressed. They don't look the way I would like mine to look while working. I like energetic quick responses and wagging tails. I don't see why you want the dog to look submissive.

Kavik - IMO that takes submission to the more full end of the spectrum. For example, I might be submissive to my Dad - probably because I respect him and his leadership so much. I tend to defer to him (unless my stubborn horns really come out !! ) That doesn't mean I'm unhappy or look unhappy when I am with him, working or otherwise. That's the way I interpret it, anyway.

[MarkS]

Kavik..

Why do you consider a dog that is submissive toward its leader as unhappy? Do you call a dog in a pack that is submissive to higher ranking dogs as 'unhappy'?

Sure if I want my dog to work in the trial ring, etc.. then yes I keep him in drive to maintain that sharp focus, and the quick responses. That alert 'socalled' happy state.

However when I want control in the home, I do not want a dog that is continually being assertive and over active.. I want a 'calm submissive' state of mind. I don't keep my dog in drive for a calm submissive state in the home.

My dog switches into drive when I initiate it. Or if he switches into drive, I should be able to extinguish or flatten the drive, when I want a calm submissive state.

For example I can build my dog up into a high level of drive when playing with him. however I can also calm him in an instant when I dictate the game is over. That doesn't make him an unhappy dog, it shows he is respectful of my leadership.

Show me a dog that in the home is continually in high drive, and I will show you a dog that is generally out of control and disrespectful of leadership.......

[Tonymc]

Good post Mark. tony

[Kavik]

Good points guys :D

Cesar does tend to say 'he is being submissive now, this is good' and the dogs LOOK very submissive and subdued though. That is all I meant. Not that they shouldn't be, just that it is not necessary for them to look so submissive to be so. I think that sometimes he pushes the extent of the meaning on his show.

Of course you don't want high drive all the time, would drive you crazy :D and my nutter Kelpie knows that inside the house is quiet time for chilling and watching TV too.

[Erny]

Good points guys :D

Cesar does tend to say 'he is being submissive now, this is good' and the dogs LOOK very submissive and subdued though.

There are times when I have worked with owners and their 'dominant' (higher heirarchy status believing - for those who don't appreciate the word 'dominant' :D) dog/s and I too will see the dog obviously submitting (and not necessarily because I've even layed a finger on them). I too have said "this is good" to the owners - only because I know the owners have 'babied' their dog and recognise the emotions the owners feel (which is often why the dog/s have become 'dominant' in the first place). I say these words as a form of encouragement to people who might, the instant they see it, begin to become emotionally alarmed that all is not well.

I tend to find that the overt submission the dog/s exhibit becomes less overt as they come to understand their new (lower) position in the pack and as they come to understand the change of rules the owners have applied/are asserting. Sometimes, I think the submission I might see does stem not only as the result of the change of rules being recognised, but also because of some confusion at the fact that there is change. I tend to find that some positive reinforcement for the improved behaviour increases the dog's confidence that its responses to the changes are correct, and posturing improves.

As I said, I have said "this is good" to owners before - simply so they don't screech "OMG !!!!" at their dog's submissive appearance, and fall to the ground hugging and kissing them and telling them they are sorry and reverting to their (up until then) ways of doing everything the dog wants when the dog wants it.

Perhaps this is what CM is doing as well?

[Kavik]

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

[MarkS]

Good point Erny

I too say to my clients, "This good". As many clients look at the body language of their dog and say "he looks so scared" or "he looks so sad". I show them that the dog is not scared or sad, the dog is now adjusting to its new position within the pack. The dog is displaying more subdued body language, and the best we can do now for the dog is show confident leadership. Feeling sorry for your dog is not an emotion you should be projecting to your dog, calm assertiveness is what your dog seeks, he/she seeks natural leadership. Your dog needs to adjust, and if you project the emotion of feeling sorry for him, you will confuse your dog, and will go right back to controlling the family.

I am speaking here of course, of a dog that was ruling the household. What I call the "insecure leader", that had become aggressive toward family members, and or visitors.

I find the dogs adjust very quickly, many owners are much slower at adjusting to this new relationship. As Cesar so rightly says "Dogs are amazing creatures, they live in the moment" A trait we can ALL learn from our dogs. :D

[Erny]

Thanks Mark. Expressed in your post far more clearly than I in mine.

[Rusky]

I think Kavik you are seeing the body language calming signals... licking lips, avoidance by blinking and turning away,yawning, panting, startled eyes, arc movement, trying to sit, sniffing the ground etc. Some dogs on the show are very stressed, they show it in every aspect of their body language. Then he says 'there we have a susbmissive dog' they are showing all the signals to make it stop.

[MarkS]

You make good points Rusky.. But I honestly don't totally agree. Have I ever placed a dog under some form of stress to modify a behaviour..yes most definately!

Dogs overcome stress far faster then we do, if we show correct behaviour ourselves. I would much rather a dog go through some stress than spend weeks or months trying to modify an aggressive insecure dog in the household. Why is stress such a bad thing? Life is stress, we all need stress to survive. Our body needs stress for our immune system to strengthen. They have done studies on puppies that were raised in such a controlled environment that the puppies experienced absolutely no stress. Another group of pups were exposed to varying levels of stress. The first group had much weaker immune system than the second group. The first group were far less confident than the second group. Just as humans, dogs need to learn to deal with stress as well. The biggest issue is that many many dogs in society are living a life of continuous un-natural stress. You know why? Because so many owners are wrapping their dogs in cottonwool, and comforting their dogs when stressed. Not only are they reinforcing the stressful behaviour in the dog, but they are not allowing a dog to learn to deal with stress correctly. But people that tend to mother their dogs when stressed, are 'usually' owners that allow their dog to control the household. So when the dog is placed in a position to be you could say 'challenged', the dog is placed under stress, because in these families these dogs have NEVER been challenged. So yes modifying the insecure leaders behaviour is going to cause some form of stress in the dog.

A dog that is challenged in a dog pack is placed under stress, but this is not bad. An insecure (leader) dog is a HIGHLY stressed dog, way beyond what is intended or natural to the dog. Just because it doesn't show all the signs you stated in your post doesn't mean the dog isn't overly stressed. If I can control the amount of stress this dog is going through, and end up with a less stressful dog, then the amount of stress I place the dog under to modify the behaviour is far better than the stress it is currently under by being an insecure leader, and having to live life in this manner.

I believe many read to much into stress and believe stress is bad. Stress is needed. Our bodies are stressed every moment we are alive. Just being alive in the world creates varying levels of stress, even in dogs.

Of cause stress is also caused by abusive training and behaviour modification methods, or just abusive people in general.. but we are not talking about this type of stress. This is where a good behaviourist needs to totally understand what he/she is doing and where they need to be really able to read the stress levels in the dog, and train/modify accordingly.

So I much prefer to place the dog under an appropriate amount of stress if needed so this dog doesn't have to live its life any longer in an overly stressed state.

Not sure I explained myself very well here.. been a long day..

I am sure this is a very contentous subject.. and there are varying points of view... It's a very interesting subject.

Edited January 12, 2008 by MarkS

[Rom]

Just wanting to thank everyone for their input in regards to stress in this thread. Its an area that has been a little grey to me because my knowledge and understanding has been on the change on this subject and with your help I have gained a deeper appreciation of how stress can actually help in behaviour modification.

Rusky, I agree that the signals that the dog gives off basically tells us that the dog wants it to stop.....however, if we also show the dog the behaviours that he can engage in to make it stop and reinforce those behaviours, then that puts the dog in control and it returns to confidence. I don't have TV so don't watch Cesar Milan....I can only assume from what is written here that he isn't big on reinforcement/reward....the problem I see with that is that perhaps the dogs he works with are left in a stressed state for too long?

[Kavik]

That is exactly what I mean Rusky! You put it much better than me. :D

[Erny]

Then he says 'there we have a susbmissive dog' they are showing all the signals to make it stop.

Don't forget that these signals are used by a dog to signal its deference to a higher ranking animal. They can also be those signs of initial confusion I spoke of earlier in my previous post. And a shift in heirarchy is generally what we seek to achieve when behaviour issues indicate an 'out of balance' situation between dog and human. As Mark has explained above, the stress the dog is experiencing during the shift in heirarchy process is short-lived when behaviour modification is dealt with appropriately and clearly. Once the dog learns its new place and recognises the human's ability to govern fairly and capably, dogs are generally happy to accept that they no longer carry the grave responsibility we imposed on them beforehand. If a dog would turn different colours to indicate its stress levels, you might be surprised to see how many stressed animals there are and how great their stress, when to the naked eye they appear to simply be happy, go-lucky, boundy - albeit "naughty" dogs.

In my experience, once the dog understands its new position (and the process, well executed, is normally swift) and what is expected of him/her, the overt signals you refer to do not continue.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Erny