Healthy Weight For Female Samoyed

[pip1981]

Hi, I'm new to the DOL forums, I have introduced myself and my beautiful female Samoyed, Dakota, in the newbie section, but am trying to post some questions/requests I have in the appropriate places.

I am wondering if anyone out there can tell me what a good weight would be for a female Sam, only just turned 1 on Oct. 22nd. We read that a full-grown female should weigh 25kg, but I'm sure this must vary, and we don't know when she will be considered full-grown either. The Samoyed websites are a great help, but obviously not for every life stage, so I'd love some advice from an experienced Samoyed owner.

We are worried Dakota is underweight and slightly small even though she shows no signs of illness or fatigue. She eats twice a day (nothing too fancy I'm afraid), but never finishes what I give her, even though it is less than what is recommended. She isn't very food orientated at all, never has been in general, but like any normal dog, loves a treat and raw meat on the bone, which she gets at least twice a week in the form of chicken wings or lamb shanks, and/or raw eggs. We have been given so much advice from experienced dog owners in general, but everyone says we are worrying over nothing. They say she knows how much food she needs and will eat when she's hungry. They have also suggested that me swapping food types all the time in an effort to find something she thrives on, may have actually made it worse, as in 'she thinks she can wait and see what's on offer next'? I've tried Pet shop premium brands, mid-high priced supermarket brands, kangaroo mince on its own, or mixed with Dr Bruce Symes vegie meal stuff, and even the pre-packed ready to eat mix.

We have also considered the possibility that she may just be a small girl, as she was bred from a small male and a large female, maybe she's taking after dad, making her a small female???

The only other thing I wish to add is that she only recently coughed up an ugly hairball thing while we weren't home, that appeared to contain the remnants of part of a rubber toy that disappeared months ago, the amount of rubber that came back out seemed to match what had been missing, but I still have the slightest concern that this may be connected with our problem (even though she wasn't a good eater beforehand, and still isn't after coughing it up).

Ok, I'm scared this is going to sound bad, please don't judge me as she is well looked after, and obviously our next course of action is to visit the vet for an opinion. At the moment she weighs roughly only 16kg under all that fur, oh and she's almost finished shedding. I did read another website that stated 18-25 kg for female Samoyed, and I figured if she is only 1 and maybe will reach full-grown by 18 months, maybe 16kg is ok, but she looks sooooo skinny when she is wet and her waist, neck and lower legs are so thin, and obviously we don't know what 'normal' looks like...

Please help, we are both worried we have done something wrong...thanks in advance..

[badboyz]

Not sure if you have seen the ANKC standard for the Samoyed. Here is a link: http://www.ankc.org.au/home/breeds_details.asp?bid=174

It does not list a weight, but lists as follows:

Dogs 51-56 cms (20-22 ins) at the shoulder.

Bitches: 46-51 cms (18-20 ins) at the shoulder.

Weight in proportion to size.

My shar pei are also 18 - 20 inches and and ideal weight for them would be 18 - 22kg, so I think the suggested 18 - 25kgs would be correct. At 12 mths she will not be at her full adult weight anyway. When you feel her ribcage with your fingers through her coat, does she feel ribby, or can you feel a thin layer of fat over the ribs. Also please tell us what you are feeding her, as we may be able to recommend a better diet.

[Bjelkier]

Hi Pip not a breeder but an owner of a Samoyed myself so I might be able to help a little.

The Samoyed is a slow growing breed and generally they will reach maximum height around 6 to 8 months, give or take but then spend a few more years filling out and broadening.

Have you had her measured or done it yourself? The standard female height is between 18 to 20 inches to the shoulder. Measure your girl and see where she stands in regards to that, it is possible that you do have a slightly smaller female, it does happen.

In regards to her food how much do you feed her each meal? It is possible that she is just saying to you that she has eaten all she needs to keep herself healthy. Dogs will not usually let themselves starve.

Persoanlly I would not be swapping foods all the time, it will make for a fussy eater. Find something you are both happy with and stick to it. Something you might also want to try is sardines. Samoyeds seem to love them, my boy certainly does. Its also good for her coat.

As for the toy. If she has alwyas been a small eater chances are eating the ball has nothing to do with it. Has she had trouble going to the toilet? If you are worried take her to the vet and get her check out, its better to be safe then sorry. Samoyeds will eat anything and everything

Mistral once ate an entire chucks cloth and I only noticed he had done so when he pooped it out a few days later :rolleyes: I swear he is trying to give me a heart attack sometimes, he also had a thing for rocks for a little while too, thankfully he has grown out of that.

If you are really worried about her development chat to her breeder if you can, if not maybe contact another one and have a talk to them about her. If you want I might be able to get a few numbers for you of some people to chat to if you need it.

WS

[pip1981]

Wow! Thank-you Badboyz and Wolfsong, both responses much appreciated and very helpful.

I just re-measured Dakota at the shoulder (I hope I know where that is?) and it seems she is about 18 inches, so this on the lower end of normal, which is a good thing. Also Badboyz, she doesn't seem to feel too 'ribby' as you put it, just looks like a skunned rabbit in the bath. Maybe I am being paranoid afterall, and Wolfsong thanks for the info regarding the 'filling out' over a few years, I guess as long as she gains weight into the future at a steady rate, and gets up to at least 20kg or thereabouts we needn't worry.

You certainly had me chuckling about the chux wipe, hilarious, makes me wonder what else Dakota has eaten while we weren't looking, she loves chewing various insects up and spitting them back out (hence, we don't use fly spray at my house), oh and she's lucky she wasn't electocuted when she chewed through the aircon wires and housing, yes, OMG!

As for her toilet habits go, completely normal, mostly twice a day, never too loose, and this has always been the case, so I guess that's good.

Anyway, you have both really put my mind at ease, we'll just keep an eye on her.

Oh, over the last 2 weeks she's had nothing but supermarket bought Pedigree Puppy cans (we know it doesn't have a great reputation, but our breeder said it was the best supermarket brand when we got her, and Dakota seems to like it equally as much as anything else we've tried), and Purina Puppy Dry food, supplemented by weekly lamb shanks, 2 chicken wings approx. every 3 days, an egg maybe once a week, and some liver treats. Prior to this we alternated between the Pedigree, Nature's Gift and Optimum, and Supercoat Dry food (which I think she prefers to Purina), plus the same supplements. Prior to this even, we have tried 'Vet's All Natural' and buying our own roo mince to mix with vegies and rice, she enjoyed the meat of course, but ignored the other stuff.

She responds to the sentence 'are you hungry' if she is, hehe, so we ask her when we get up in the morning if she's responsive I serve up half a tin (i think 350g) of Pedigree, but she never finishes it in the morning. If she's ignoring me, I usually put a cup of dry food in her bowl and she has a nibble, leaves the rest. In the evening she is always keen for dinner, and I serve up the other half a tin, she is just beginning to get the stage, where, when encouraged she will finish what is served. She always has room for chicken wings

In between all this we do experiment with small amounts of vegies we are eating, and fish, which she likes, so I will take the sardine suggestion on board, even though I'm not looking forward to touching them, eewww.

I have read Samoyeds love fruit, but have never been able to get her interested, she licks, chews a bit, then leaves it..

Anyway, I'm blabbing on, sorry, and thanks again for the replies!

Wolfsong: Mistral is absolutely beautiful!

[Bjelkier]

Glad you are feeling better about it. I was a basket case when I first got Mistral but I came to realise that they are pretty tough dogs, now, well I am still pretty paranoid about him doing something silly or hurting himself I think I have calmed down a little . . . . maybe

I have found Mistral wont touch fruit but loves veggies, carrots are his favourite and they are good for his teeth too.

[pip1981]

Thanks wolfsong, yep, i'm still online, obsessively reading the spitz thread now, hehehehe

what other vegies does mistral like (cooked or raw)? I have tried feeding dakota raw carrots as she is always curious when i'm chopping them and when she watched me feed them to my bunny (before he passed on ), but she just seems to enjoy chewing it up into teeny tiny pieces all over the floor, which is fun to clean up...

and just out of curiosity, i've noticed a lot of members on here mentioning they feed their dogs a BARF diet, what is this? and is kibble just dry food? i thought this was an american term? i'm learning lots on here, hopefully i'll learn heaps more, sounds like i need to, hehehehe

[Bjelkier]

He also likes pumpkin. The pumpkin is cooked and pulped but the carrot is raw, more then anything the carrot is a treat.

As for the BARF diet, I don't feed it to my boys so don't know much about it but this thread might help. Heaps of people feed their dogs BARF however and swear by it.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...994&hl=BARF

Edited November 3, 2008 by Wolfsong

[Sam&Saki]

Woohoo, finally someone as paranoid about their dog's size as I am about mine!

My Akita hasn't reached the minimum height or weight of the breed standard yet either and I wondered all the same things. After harrassing all of DOL, previous local vet, trainers and specialist vet about it - conclusion is that although her Dam and Sire were both very large, she is a throw back to a prior generation which threw the occasional smaller dog.

If you already know your dog has one small parent doubtless it's just your dog takes after them

As far as I can tell, here on DOL, at my dogs' classes and vets and among most dog owners I know, some feed raw, some feed BARF, some feed supermarket food, but most feed premium dry food (you get this at a pet supply store or vet) mixed with additional bits and pieces.

Personally I have my dog on Hill's Science or IAMS or Eukanuba with puppy milk and/or sardines and other treats. Although premium dry foods are a lot more expensive than supermarket food, it is so much better for them that they eat less (and go to the toilet less, and smell better) so it doesn't really work out more expensive in the end IMO.

Most of my personal friends have their dogs on similar diets, although I know some go for wholistic premium dry food (Eagle Pack etc) which is that bit more expensive again than premium dried food.

These are just my observations, I'm not a doggy nutritionalist by any means! You'll find many people with different opinions on what food dogs should be on, but you just do what is best for your dog x

[pip1981]

Hmm, thanks for that Wolfsong. I'm checking out the website www.barfaustralia.com.au for anyone else that's curious.

I'm just clueless as to what to feed our baby, you get so much varying advice from breeders, vets, trainers and long-time dog owners, and I don't know who to listen to. And furthermore, my family dog (bitsa- Blue Heeler/Border Collie/Kelpie X) was fed on cheap dry food, anyone's leftovers (including cooked bones!!!) and she lived 'til almost 16, I would never feed Dakota like this, but it really does make me wonder sometimes?

Just saw your post Sam, thanks! I've been checkin' out your beautiful Akita, Saki, too, just gorgeous! I'm glad I'm not the only one worried about size too, heheh.

When we first brought Dakota home, we were given a small food pack, of what she had been eating at the breeder's containing home-made meatballs (chicken mince/egg/seaweed powder/oil mix, etc), some chicken wings, a can of pedigree puppy and some puppy milk. We only kept the puppy milk up for a few months as we were told by the vet the dogs enjoy it, but it's of no nutritional benefit, and we continued with the pedigree and chicken wings and occasional eggs, until we went to puppy school and were given a free sample of premium dry food called Royal Canin, which she seemed to love, so we bought a big bag, then she lost interest. Back to pedigree, then one day she had a stomach upset, vet could not diagnose, but put her on antibiotics and science diet cans that were easy on the tummy apparently, she didn't like the food very much though. At the same visit, vet asked what we fed her, and made us feel really terrible about feeding her pedigree. He said if we MUST feed her supermarket food from the can it should be 'Nature's Gift' or 'Optimum'. He said he would prefer if we fed her on Dr Bruce Syme's "Vet's all Natural" diet, and he did sell it well. You can buy it pre-made (not cost effective at all) or you can buy a dry mix to mix with your own raw mince. Anyway, we tried all three suggestions. Dakota liked the raw meat diet, but still ate no more than anything else, and considering the cost and/or effort involved we went back to cans and dry. I feel that out of the canned varieties from the supermarket, Nature's Gift looks the most like real food, lol, Optimum looks the same as Pedigree, and from memory the nutritional values are better with Nature's Gift too, however Dakota seemed to prefer Pedigree. I'm so LOST. LOL

Oh, also about the premium dry foods, I understand the less poo/cleaner thing and that they can actually be cost effective, but for some reason it still seems unnatural to me for a biggish dog to do a 'cat size' poo, lol. And I think I have read somewhere that with our dogs being deep-chested they are prone to bloat which is more common among dogs who eat dry food? Please correct me, as I probably have no idea what I'm talking about. I just wish there was a big sign on our dog's heads saying "I will do best on _________!" Oh, hang on, that would make them ugly, hehehehe.

Thanks again everyone, this is fantastic.

[Bjelkier]

Yeah that big sign would be handy LOL

If it helps my boy is on Pro Plan and raw meat. He does really well on it.

[Sam&Saki]

I was thinking of trialling Saki on Royal Canin too... Hmmm.

Oh gosh Saki would love to eat tinned Pedigree too, she loves the smell and taste, doesn't mean it's good for her though, heh! I find it cheaper and easier to mix an ordinary tin of sardines into her dry food to make it more appetising, sardines are so good for them and their coat. Eggs are good too

Oh does dry food put dogs at a higher risk of bloat? Just the cheaper (even cheaper than supermarket tinned food) kibble stuff or all dry food?

I know we need to feed them more frequent, smaller meals; and limit their food/drink intake prior to and after exercise... Didn't know dry food increased the risk though x

[pip1981]

I'm thinkin' these Sardines are sounding better and better by the minute, as Dakota does love a bit of tuna from the tin!

About the dry food, honestly I could be totally wrong, but I remember reading or being told by someone, that in a case where a dog is prone to bloat, if they eat dry food, then drink water, the water is soaked up by the dry food causing it to expand and bloat the tummy. And, it/they said to limit access to water immediately after eating. It might be a crock, or it might be only in extreme cases or something, but whatever it was, it put me off feeding much dry food, probably just me being naive though, I really ought to try something else. I understand your point about the Pedigree, I guess it's like Chocolate, our dogs would probably love it, but we're not about to give it to them, hehehe.

I'm just confused as now I've been told we're making the situation worse by changing all the time, now I'm talking about changing again....

Sorry Sam, I could go on all night it seems...lol

oh, and everything is helpful Wolfsong, thanks again...

[Sam&Saki]

No, that makes sense, and is good to know

Just have to weigh up the relative risks and benefits of everything I suppose! x

[cassie]

Re. bloat, for every rule I've heard to prevent it, there seems to be the exact opposite rule as well For instance some people swear by feeding from a raised surface to prevent bloat, others say it can cause it. Some people say to soak dry food in water first before feeding, others say not to do this. It's hard to know what to do sometimes.

[pip1981]

Indeed Sam

Cassie: Thanks for your repsonse, I have heard the soaking first thing too and it sounded like it defeated the purpose, too many rules! Heheheh (oh, ur big babies are also beautiful by the way!)

[Rysup]

I am no expert, I would think a Samoyed would be more solid than a Keeshond, however my rule of thumb for the Kees is 1kg for every inch in height. So an 18 inch dog, should be around 18kgs. WHEN FULLY MATURE! That is important, because my guys all start out very light. My current show dog who is 12 months old, would be 18 inches now, but only weighs a good 12-13kgs. His grandfather was exactly the same, did not fill out and put on that solidness until he was 3 or 4 years old.

So 16kgs for an 18inch bitch, sounds just fine to me. If she is leaving her food, then she isn't hungry, so I would not worry. She will fill out in time.

[pip1981]

Thanks Rachel, very reassuring response! I'm starting to understand things a little clearer now in terms of size and weight, now it's just deciding whether to change the diet or not, heheh, it's never ending

[Rysup]

It is hard! My dogs have been on a "cheapish" diet recently due to a couple of months of financial woes, but in doing so it fixed one dogs ongoing intolerance to food. So he stays on this diet now! They dont LOVE it, often they leave food, but I dont panic, they have not starved themselves to death yet

[pip1981]

Just thought I'd pop back to this thread and say I'm so happy today because Dakota miraculously woke up this morning and decided to eat all the food I served her!! Never done this before without encouragment and never done this at breakfast time, EVER. Do you think it's actually possible she understood me, when I joking said 'If you eat your breakfast you can have your chicken!'? LOL

Thanks again for all you reassuring words last night, so much appreciated!