First Time Puppy Owner Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 (edited) Hi All Ok I am seriously struggling I am more at ease now knowing that Atopica is covered by my insurance incase it does turn out to be Atopy. However on Friday night I went to see vet / long time friend for the first time at a new practice that is closer to my home. (Previous practice she was around 1 & 1/2 hours away from me). Previously she has done vaccines at home for me cause we were doing a social events anyway (their vac date is near my b'day so it's always worked out easily). Anyway my delimma is that she is a great friend, I love her, know that she is super smart, but I would really like to go ahead and do a full thyroid antibody profile yet fear that I am going to offend/upset her as I made contact with Dr Dodds after our consult on Friday night. During that consult Kylie did a T4 test - result 29 and as it was with range (14-52) she has completely has ruled out the possibility of a thyroid problem and we are going to do a second food elimination trial and if not that possibly put Benson to Atopica. So my question is what do I do? I mean I already asked a few times on Friday to do full bloods but she said nah we will see what T4 is and if we need to them we will send off to external lab for more experimentation. *sigh* I really don't want this to seem like I don't trust her but after what Loraine has gone through I just want to be 100% sure it's not a thyroid issue. Also do vet/vet nurses hear know of Jean Dodds really well or not? Perhaps if she is well know here I can drop her name and that way encourage the testing to go ahead. Part of Jean's email to me. As far as the thyroid results, a T4 alone is insufficient to asess thyroid function, especially in a golden retriever -- a breed at high risk for the autoimmune form of thyroid disease. So, he really needs to have a complete thyroid antibody profile run, like the one we offer at Hemopet'Hemolife. Suggestions please! *insert begging emotion here* Susan Edited November 17, 2008 by First Time Puppy Owner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicko Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 id go with your gut feeling! He is your boy and im sure your friend will understand that you want to do everything possible for Benson. You will be kicking yourself if you dont do it and find out later that it was needed etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 (edited) FTPO .... If it were me, I would. Otherwise you might find you'll be forever questioning yourself over an avenue that has not been covered. Will it be a waste of time and money? Perhaps, unless you regard it as money well spent simply to rule out the possibility of your dog's health issue being related at its grass roots in a dysfunctional thyroid. When my avatar girl (that's the one I had to say goodbye to 2 years ago) was ill, I asked for thyroid tests to be done. They were and according to the Vets here they came back normal. As disappointed as I was because a 'normal' result meant her symptoms indicated a more serious condition, I moved on with other checks, tests and so-on. To this day I reflect back and wonder if I knew then (about the testing and analysis availability through Dr. Dodds) what I know now, maybe the results would have been different. Maybe. Maybe. Or maybe not. But I wish I could know the answer to that with a winding back of time, because then it would have been the only remaining 'stone left unturned' that I can think of. So if it were me? Yep. I'd have the tests done. Edited November 17, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeChoc Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 I would have the test done, maybe just say that you would preffer to be 100% sure before moving on to something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 (edited) Yes .... I have been known to use the term "humour me, please?" when I've dotted around to Vets insisting there was something wrong with my girl and them thinking instead there was something wrong with me. Make out it is for your sanity, not that you are questioning her if you feel uncomfortable about this Vet also being your friend. Edited November 17, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShesaLikeableBiBear Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 Gather that you have sent Dr Dodds a full history of what has been happening in regards to Benson? She is obviously an expert and has pointed out that Goldies are particularly susceptible to the autoimmune form of thyroid disease, which gather the T4 doesnt necessarily pick up?. Am sure your friend would understand you want to get to the bottom of what is happening to Benson, its being going on too long. A little OT but going back over Panda's notes. He was seen by a Dermatologist on 28/11/07 who diagnosed Follicular Dysplasia. The symptoms he had were in fact indicative of a Thyroid problem. He was not tested at this time. He eventually saw a Cardiologist at the end of June who recommended T4 and this was the cause of Panda's problems, he is a very different dog to what he was 7 months previously. 7 months of wondering what was happening to my boy could have been avoided had he had the correct tests done in the first instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted November 17, 2008 Author Share Posted November 17, 2008 (edited) Thanks so very much guys! I will say to her 'humour me' as it's just something I feel I need to do to make certain we have ruled out absolutely, before treating with a med that might just mask the real issue for a long time. See in Dr Dodds theory young dogs should have quite high thyroxin levels, reducing with age and she feels some breeds differ to the average range so I am going to try to convince my friend that she is not wrong but rather that I have found some info that is relatively new and not all that well know yet. I stress about these types of things as I would hate her to feel she is being undermind or critised - you know?!?! Yep sent full history to Dr Dodds! Edit - ps I don't think it's all that expensive and if I need to eat 2 min noodle for a mth so be it! Edited November 17, 2008 by First Time Puppy Owner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavandra Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 I would be straight with her, and say you dont want to appear to over ride her, but was she aware that our Thyroid tests in Australia are not good enough, that you have been on DOL, and spoken to breeders to be in touch with the expert Dr Dodds, and this is what she says.....hand her the email...say that you want this ruled out first before anything else begins.......... She will learn something new which will lead to who knows how many dogs coming through that Practice get diagnosed correctly...thanks to you...Vets cant know everything & can only do tests they know of....... Goldens do have Atopy & do have thyroid issues too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShesaLikeableBiBear Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 Am sure your friend will understand that the problems with Benson have been going on too long, what you want is the best for him, at the cost of 2 min noodles See Rappie is on line be interesting to have her comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted November 17, 2008 Author Share Posted November 17, 2008 Thanks Cav! Yep they sure are suseptable to both *sigh* Also very frustrating and stressful when you know your dog is not comfortable in it's own skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 (edited) Edit - ps I don't think it's all that expensive and if I need to eat 2 min noodle for a mth so be it! The testing is about $90. On top of that you have the Vet's fee for drawing the blood as well as the FedEx courier to ship the bloods to the USA. I am thinking about $250 (give or take) might cover it. It isn't an amount to exactly break the bank, but it isn't something to be sneezed at either. However I would consider the expense well worth while if only for the peace of mind that you have checked it out. Good luck FTPO. You know we'll be waiting her for you to refresh your thread with an update. ETA: There are quite a few Vets out there who think "nup .... wouldn't be thyroid". It isn't so much their fault as it is that they're just not aware of this fairly recent research. I find that many Vets only consider thryoid auto-immune deficiency when the dog is showing the classical clinical symptoms. But those classical clinical symptoms don't appear until the thyroid tissue is 70% destroyed and this is usually considerably later in the dog's life. Edited November 17, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 (edited) If you would get peace of mind from doing the tests, then there's no reason that you can't request the thyroid profile to be run. A compromise I supposed would be to have the TT4, fT4(ED) and TSH run to assess thyroid function. The antibody test could also be run, but the results may not change what is done (ie. if antibodies are present and thyroid function is normal, then it means that the dog could become hypothyroid later but is not now). It is really up to you, some vets may be reluctant to test thyroid levels in a dog without clinical signs of hypothyroidism because the results can be difficult to interpret in the face of concurrent, non thyroidal illness - BUT - if an owner requested a non-invasive test as a rule out, and I felt that the information could be useful, I would still run it and not be offended. ETA: My comments above aren't related specifically to dermatological cases, where hypothyroidism in chronic cases is frequently a differential. Generally speaking, hypothyroidism is suspected (and often treated) much more frequently than it is actually diagnosed. Edited November 17, 2008 by Rappie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted November 17, 2008 Author Share Posted November 17, 2008 If you would get peace of mind from doing the tests, then there's no reason that you can't request the thyroid profile to be run. A compromise I supposed would be to have the TT4, fT4(ED) and TSH run to assess thyroid function. The antibody test could also be run, but the results may not change what is done (ie. if antibodies are present and thyroid function is normal, then it means that the dog could become hypothyroid later but is not now). It is really up to you, some vets (I admit, including myself) may be reluctant to test thyroid levels in a dog without clinical signs of hypothyroidism because the results can be difficult to interpret in the face of concurrent, non thyroidal illness - BUT - if an owner requested a non-invasive test as a rule out, and I felt that the information could be useful, I would still run it and not be offended. Sorry to clarify Rappie, would you have those run here rather than sending to Dr Dodds? I completely understand that the original test is well with in range I just wonder if there is a chance that it might not be as conclusive as more testing might prove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sne Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 T4 profile shows the output of the thyroid - so gives an indication of how it is functioning, from what I understand it's the same way we test humans for thyroid problems (other thyroid tests such as TSH, or auto-antibodies aren't covered by medicare etc. from my *limited* understanding). But whether there may be changes between dog breeds I'm not sure. Though if you're happy to fork out the money for the tests for peace of mind I say go for it - what is $250 in the space of his lifetime (I know Ranger wouldn't be here if we hadn't been willing to splurge on countless tests)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 It wasn't a specific recommendation either way If you're willing and happy to send the bloods to Dr Dodds, then that would be fine. If one of my clients wanted to do that, I'd be interested in the results. On the other hand, a common response to offering some more specialised blood tests is "HOW MUCH!?!?!....I'm paying for your next BMW / private jet etc". Some of the tests can be run here and would work as a halfway point, but different tests can be run in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted November 17, 2008 Author Share Posted November 17, 2008 Thanks Sne - so glad you did Ranger is a gorgeous boy! It wasn't a specific recommendation either way :DIf you're willing and happy to send the bloods to Dr Dodds, then that would be fine. If one of my clients wanted to do that, I'd be interested in the results. On the other hand, a common response to offering some more specialised blood tests is "HOW MUCH!?!?!....I'm paying for your next BMW / private jet etc". Some of the tests can be run here and would work as a halfway point, but different tests can be run in the US. Ok not to put you on the spot but if it were your dog what would you do Rappie? I mean the one thing that doesn't seem to fit 100% is that he has actually lost weight rather than gain. I mean I am not paying off a BMW but for me $250 is not so easy to come up with but I will do it if it means my boy receives the proper care he needs. I mean you may get that this is my first dog from me ailas but I just want my puppy back who is happy and wants to interact with me rather than being frightened out of his mind as to whether I am going to do something to him that is painful (treating hot spots, ear infections, eyes, stripping away a matted coat/shaving when he has licked himself silly). Huh a comment just came to mind 'life isn't meant to be easy' .... so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted November 17, 2008 Author Share Posted November 17, 2008 PS you of course don't need to answer that Rappie - I am just so stressed out, cause money is not a great thing at the moment for me, if I had some then probably would be an awesome thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Rules Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 I would be straight with her, and say you dont want to appear to over ride her, but was she aware that our Thyroid tests in Australia are not good enough, that you have been on DOL, and spoken to breeders to be in touch with the expert Dr Dodds, and this is what she says.....hand her the email...say that you want this ruled out first before anything else begins..........She will learn something new which will lead to who knows how many dogs coming through that Practice get diagnosed correctly...thanks to you...Vets cant know everything & can only do tests they know of....... Goldens do have Atopy & do have thyroid issues too Suz, if your friend is a good friend, she will surely realise your anxiousness and want to help you rather than be offended that you have chosen to go down a more extended path than she recommends. I would also send the bloods to the States, specifically to Jean's clinic as she has suggested, as that's where all the new info is coming from - you will have the most accurate results from there, no offence to any vet or staff in Australia. $250 odd is not so much in the scheme of things considering how many more vet appointments and treatments etc that you may go through to accurately have Benson diagnosed regardless if you don't go ahead with this more extensive blood test. Good luck with speaking to your friend, I know you are treading very carefully but keep Benson in mind as well - he's the one who lives with you and is in discomfort, not your vet friend :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 IME not many Vets know about Jean Dodds and if they do, they don't recognise that she has been an immunologist for many many years. If it were my dog, I'd do it - particularly with a young dog and particularly because Atopica is a strong drug and the decision to start is not to be entered into lightly. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted November 17, 2008 Author Share Posted November 17, 2008 I think I will sleep on it - so many things to consider Will keep you all informed though k! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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