Help With Scent Discrimination Please

[RubyStar]

Can anyone please help me with a scent discrimination problem?

I've never taught this before so pretty clueless, but thought it would be fun to teach something new to keep training interesting (for both me and the dog!) I am following the guidelines for teaching it from Dog Scout http://www.dogscouts1.com/Dog_Activ-_Scent_Discrim.html

I progressed to 2 metal articles down (one scented and one not) and at first I thought my girl was surprisngly brilliant she'd sniff one, sniff the other, then sniff the first and pick that up and that was the scented one. She did this two maybe three times and I was ecstatic! It seemed she was catching on. Or so I thought. She started bringing me the wrong one and here is where I am getting confused - what to do when she brings the wrong one.

Dog Scout says to ignore the dog, do not tell them they are wrong and if they then go back and bring you the correct one to praise and reward. But my dog thought she was doing it right and didn't understand to go back! My heart was breaking ignoring her, she was looking up at me so proud that she had brought it back and even after asking her go find it again with the scented article still out there, she just looked confused as if to say she already has it! I'm worried I'm crushing her confidence and understanding of what I am asking her to do and risking her not wanting to go find anything if she thinks I am just going to ignore her and not reward her each time she tries to do what she thinks I'm asking.

So what do I do when she won't attempt to go back and get the right one and to avoid crushing her confidence?

Thanks to anyone who can help!

[Janet Morrison]

Can anyone please help me with a scent discrimination problem?

I've never taught this before so pretty clueless, but thought it would be fun to teach something new to keep training interesting (for both me and the dog!) I am following the guidelines for teaching it from Dog Scout http://www.dogscouts1.com/Dog_Activ-_Scent_Discrim.html

I progressed to 2 metal articles down (one scented and one not) and at first I thought my girl was surprisngly brilliant she'd sniff one, sniff the other, then sniff the first and pick that up and that was the scented one. She did this two maybe three times and I was ecstatic! It seemed she was catching on. Or so I thought. She started bringing me the wrong one and here is where I am getting confused - what to do when she brings the wrong one.

Dog Scout says to ignore the dog, do not tell them they are wrong and if they then go back and bring you the correct one to praise and reward. But my dog thought she was doing it right and didn't understand to go back! My heart was breaking ignoring her, she was looking up at me so proud that she had brought it back and even after asking her go find it again with the scented article still out there, she just looked confused as if to say she already has it! I'm worried I'm crushing her confidence and understanding of what I am asking her to do and risking her not wanting to go find anything if she thinks I am just going to ignore her and not reward her each time she tries to do what she thinks I'm asking.

So what do I do when she won't attempt to go back and get the right one and to avoid crushing her confidence?

Thanks to anyone who can help! :p

[Janet Morrison]

Hi,

Just wondering how you are going with your scent discrimination now, is your dog

doing all the scents right??

Regards

Janet

www.obedienceproducts.com

Can anyone please help me with a scent discrimination problem?

I've never taught this before so pretty clueless, but thought it would be fun to teach something new to keep training interesting (for both me and the dog!) I am following the guidelines for teaching it from Dog Scout http://www.dogscouts1.com/Dog_Activ-_Scent_Discrim.html

I progressed to 2 metal articles down (one scented and one not) and at first I thought my girl was surprisngly brilliant she'd sniff one, sniff the other, then sniff the first and pick that up and that was the scented one. She did this two maybe three times and I was ecstatic! It seemed she was catching on. Or so I thought. She started bringing me the wrong one and here is where I am getting confused - what to do when she brings the wrong one.

Dog Scout says to ignore the dog, do not tell them they are wrong and if they then go back and bring you the correct one to praise and reward. But my dog thought she was doing it right and didn't understand to go back! My heart was breaking ignoring her, she was looking up at me so proud that she had brought it back and even after asking her go find it again with the scented article still out there, she just looked confused as if to say she already has it! I'm worried I'm crushing her confidence and understanding of what I am asking her to do and risking her not wanting to go find anything if she thinks I am just going to ignore her and not reward her each time she tries to do what she thinks I'm asking.

So what do I do when she won't attempt to go back and get the right one and to avoid crushing her confidence?

Thanks to anyone who can help! :p

[RubyStar]

Considering she was having troubles last night when I posted, the status this morning is I'm guessing, still having trouble

[Ptolomy]

Hi Katie

I have used the dog scout method for the last 4 dogs and it is brilliant. I had this exact issue with Blaize who was the first dog I taught using this methos and I was gob smacked when it said if the dog brings back the wrong article then just stand there - from memory I waited her out for about 30 seconds and sure enough she went back and brought the correct article - and it was like from then on the penny dropped. I do have to say that each of my kids are clicker trained so are used to offering behaviours and maybe this helped.

Some things to try.....

Use the same scented metal each night - this will become your heavily scented article.

If the dog brings back the wrong article - don't use that article again that night.

If the dog brings back the wrong article twice - I would tend to pack it up and leave it for the night.

I do have to say for the first dog I threw the scented article which I think is supposed to land 40-50cm from the unscented one - well my throws are shocking and the scented article would always land on top of the other one - so from then on I placed the article where I wanted it.

It may help to play fetch with the scented article to begin with - so throw it and ask her to fetch and reward a couple of times.

If all else failes leave it for a couple of nights and then try again.

I also don't tend to stay at the same level for very long - so I very quickly add a second, third and forth article - it is somewhere around adding the third and forth article that you see the penny drop.

K9 opens again on the 5th January (so I am told) so happy to catch up after that and have a look if you are still having issues.

[ness]

Ness had those same issues and as Ptolomy said don't get stuck on the same level for too long. I will have a look back through my emails and see what transpired when Ness was learning as Ptolomy was helping me and I was emailing her with what was happening as it was happening.

[RubyStar]

Cheers Ptolomy! I'll give your suggestions a try. I'll start out by waiting it out for at least 30 seconds to see if she goes back, but I'm doubtful as I think I waited almost that long and I kept looking at her feeling sorry for her cos she looked so proud! I need to be firm - no eye contact!

I didn't stay on the single article hide and seek retrieve game for long, and tried our luck with a second article just to see if she could do it. Was happy to see she sniffed them both then brought back the right one so I stuck with 2 articles for a while. I also admit I forgot Dog Scout said to place it 5 feet away and I too placed, not threw, it only about 20cm away and she managed to get it. I'm thinking I better go back and try the 5 feet thing as well

Silly question - how do you de-scent an article? Just leave it out for a day or so? I feel so silly asking that!!

I'd definitely like to take you up on your offer for your help when K9 opens again when you have time - if not for scent discrimination, definitely SFE & heeling as my signals need the most work!

Thanks again :rolleyes:

[RubyStar]

Ness had those same issues and as Ptolomy said don't get stuck on the same level for too long. I will have a look back through my emails and see what transpired when Ness was learning as Ptolomy was helping me and I was emailing her with what was happening as it was happening.

Thanks!!

[RubyStar]

I do have to say that each of my kids are clicker trained so are used to offering behaviours and maybe this helped.

If Ruby doesn't understand what I'm asking her to do, she'll often throw every trick she knows at me just in case she hits the right one for the treat

[ness]

Ruby81 you need a couple of sets of articles to use to train. When I was learning UD with Ness I had 2 sets. I now have 6 or 7 sets :rolleyes: . If you just leave them outside in the fresh air with lids off that is sufficient to descent them.

Ok I had a quick squizzy at what I had and yep it was a case of keep moving forward and the dog eventually twigged to what I wanted. I will get off my backside and start Kenzie's scent work in the next week or so and then I might be of more help .

[RubyStar]

Dammit, I need 2 sets? I just bought 1 set thinking I was on the right track and better than using spoons :rolleyes:

Yay if you start teaching Kenzie and get the same problems then it will be fresh in your mind to help me too I know we haven't even debuted in CCD yet but can't hurt to teach more things, I figure I thought scent discrimination would be easier to teach than say the send away, which is another thing I'd love to know how to teach

[ness]

Oh nah sendaway is a piece of cake. Kenzie has already started on that and she can't do much of the ccd stuff . In fact considering she never trains with a lead on probably none of it :rolleyes: .

And yep Ruby you will need plenty of sets of articles, although I think I got a bit carried away with all my sets for just 2 dogs .

ETA. I started scent with Kenzie - well ok fetching the articles but in typical puppy fashion she wanted to munch my woods and leathers so I decided we would put that on hold. She wasn't too keen on retrieving the metal reliably although its been a few weeks since I have tried so I might dust off the articles and try again. I had a few higher priority things to work on like teaching a stay so I can get started on playing jump grids .

Edited December 29, 2008 by ness

[RubyStar]

Ah well, one thing at a time, will try the sendaway once I can figure out this scent stuff :rolleyes:

I've been working hard on Ruby's heelwork, hoping she'll be ready to trial soon (regardless, I'm taking the plunge in Feb!) I'm mostly worried about her SFE and is one of those things you can't really practice on your own cos you're not as exciting as a stranger touching you

[ness]

Fair enough - there is no rush to trial though. Better to have the dog trained through the various levels and for you to be confident in there ability to know the work at a particular level rather than try and fluke a pass.

Kenzie is nearly 9 months and people have seen me out and about doing bits with her and they keep asking me when will she trial in CCD/Novice, in fact there was pressure to have entered her at the trial on New Years Eve. Well I have a confession to make most of her training to date has been focused on the higher level exercises so nope she doesn't manage a full heel pattern with positions but by golly gosh her heelwork is a sight to behold. I tried a formal obedience recall with her the other day for the first time. Yep she was a bit confused so she wasn't racing in but she gave the most lovely front present (and only after I remembered I used her sisters command and haven't really put a command to the behavior for her yet). Much better than her sister though.

ETA. Just for the record when Ness learnt scent Ptolomy was training her baby Beans to do scent and I think she was working on scent, hoop sendaways, weaving and hmm there was something else I remember seeing in the emails LOL.

Edited December 29, 2008 by ness

[RubyStar]

Yeah, I realise there is no rush to trial, and I've been working all year to get things right even though I could have tried to fluke a pass 6 months ago (not sure if it would have worked or not, though ) But she's getting better and I know she knows the stuff, so now I just want to get out there and see - I actually think it's more my own nerves why I have put it off so long! If we flunk then at least I'll have my first embarrassing flunk over with :rolleyes: But if the practice trial in Jan goes horribly wrong then I may have second thoughts...

I just changed my screenname... got tired of the 81! Ruby Star is part of Ruby's registered name

[RubyStar]

If all else failes leave it for a couple of nights and then try again.

I think this is my current option - I tried it again tonight and all else failed!

She sat there holding the wrong article in front of me for just over a minute before I had to end it. I felt like rewarding her though cos damn that is the best and longest attention she's held on me EVER! But I resisted

She doesn't seem to be sniffing for anything anymore, even when I go back to one article and try and hide it behind something or under something light like a tissue. If she can't see it she just looks at me (then proceeded to "take a bow" several times when I asked her to find something she couldn't see just in case that was what I was actually asking for :rolleyes:)

I'll go back to it end of the week and keep researching in the meantime I guess! If anymore tips come to mind out there they will be gratefully received!

[Ptolomy]

You really do need a couple of sets of articles - especially when the dog is learning. I gather you are using tongs to put your unscented article out and that you are using the same number metal article as your heavily scented one. Remember all your articles will have some of your scent on it - and really we want the dog to bring back the hottest scent. I also have to say that to begin with it is almost luck that the dog brings back the correct one, but you will definitely see when the dog understands the exercises as you start adding more articles.

As an interesting exercise - can I suggest that you leave scent for 2 days (the articles should be well aired by then) - then on Thursday - put out 4 metal articles with tongs - 15cm apart and add one scented one and send her to find it. If she brings back the incorrect one take it off her and send her to find it again. If she gets it wrong again just give her a pat and pack it up and we will try it another way. If she gets the correct one - tell her she is brilliant and try one more time only. Then pack the game away.

Let us know how you get on.

PS - You can get more scent articles from Zoe with the tollers. She will be at the practice trial.

[ness]

I am off to play scent with little miss when she wakes - now I am keen to start her LOL. Well I should say start her off AGAIN .

And yes Zoe makes really good sets - have three of hers :rolleyes: .

Edited December 29, 2008 by ness

[Ptolomy]

The other thing I should mention - is that when the dog is learning you don't worry about the about turns, the holding of the article, the sits or straight presents - the only thing we are looking for is bringing back the correct article.

[The Spotted Devil]

Great thread

Excuse me for a quick hijack but is there anything I can do to prepare for scent discrimination as I'm still working on Zig's retrieve......I'm using different toys at the moment and he will only hold for a few seconds (clicker training and he's having a ball....just doesn't quite get it yet :rolleyes: ). I'm doing a few other fun things like "directed eating" as I like to call it but he just gets bored so quickly so I am trying to introduce a few new ideas.

Note to self.....need to buy hoop for sendaway!

ETA: Sorry, just had a look at the website....we play the 'find it' game with a squeaky toy except I hide him in the hallway - been playing this one since he was a puppy and he goes completely nuts for it.

Edited December 29, 2008 by The Spotted Devil