Different Views To Socialising

[Bindii]

I think i've just been blessed with good luck... i had a quick read through K9force's ideas and felt similar to OP. But i find that every site you go to, every trainer you ask, has a different idea. I picked and chose what i wanted. But i don't think i could write up a post about my methods. I found it different with each dog.

... Either way, i feel i have two exceptionally well behaved boys. Fletcher is still quite young, but at dog parks he has an excellent recall, even when playing with another dogs. He *loves* me. But i don't feel like i did anything extra special to make me his number one... It just happened like that.

I've been praised by doggy people, trainers, vets, groomers for how calm my boys are when out and about. They both lie down and wait for me to finish talking etc. Only do they get up and excited if the person i'm talking to is patting them and playing with them I don't remember teaching them that.... but maybe i did?

I had Fletcher out from 8 weeks old. He's now 17.5 weeks.

I definitely think K9force's posts are a great starting place, for someone who has no idea, or who is doing it for the first time. But i definitely think there are other options, and if someone wants to they'd probably benefit from researching other methods and making their own unique method - one that fits them, their lifestyle, their dog.

But yeah I really think I got lucky, so maybe my opinion shouldn't be in this thread

Edited May 26, 2009 by Bindii

[Kavik]

Your experience certainly does colour views on socialising. Be glad you got lucky :p

My views on socialising are based on the fact that I got unlucky Did the puppy preschool and dog park route with Zoe and she is dog aggressive :cool: So I am more careful and more aware now.

[laeral]

I did the puppy school, group obedience etc with my GSD where it was encouraged to let your dogs play with each other. I now have a dog who has assigned a very high value to other dogs. Knowing the difficulties I have since had with her when other dogs are around I would definitely lean towards neutralisation with my next pup.

[Nekhbet]

Knowing the difficulties I have since had with her when other dogs are around I would definitely lean towards neutralisation with my next pup.

It's not a one way road. You need to train your dog to focus - is it slightly more difficult - maybe. But I would rather a dog that sees others positively then one that doesnt and work from there. You can also change associations and values placed on objects for a dog.

[poodlefan]

I did the puppy school, group obedience etc with my GSD where it was encouraged to let your dogs play with each other. I now have a dog who has assigned a very high value to other dogs. Knowing the difficulties I have since had with her when other dogs are around I would definitely lean towards neutralisation with my next pup.

If you have a good recall, it shouldn't be a problem. Dogs are just one distraction that you need to proof for. Even if your dog regarded dogs as uninteresting, there would be other highly motivating distractions that could create issues. I know all about kangaroos in that department.

Controlled socialisation should incorporate using recalls and rewards to obtain focus, as well as obtaining focus before allowing socialisation to occur. :cool:

Methinks many of the issues owners encounter with socialisation is about how its done. I'm talking about pets here though, not working dogs.

Edited May 26, 2009 by poodlefan

[Quickasyoucan]

I did the puppy school, group obedience etc with my GSD where it was encouraged to let your dogs play with each other. I now have a dog who has assigned a very high value to other dogs. Knowing the difficulties I have since had with her when other dogs are around I would definitely lean towards neutralisation with my next pup.

If you have a good recall, it shouldn't be a problem. Dogs are just one distraction that you need to proof for. Even if your dog regarded dogs as uninteresting, there would be other highly motivating distractions that could create issues. I know all about kangaroos in that department.

Controlled socialisation should incorporate using recalls and rewards to obtain focus, as well as obtaining focus before allowing socialisation to occur.

Methinks many of the issues owners encounter with socialisation is about how its done. I'm talking about pets here though, not working dogs.

Yeah I know all about skateboards in that department. :cool:

The way I look at it, every time I go to a busy dog park there is some kind of incident that I witness, be it minor scuffles to full on fights. I try not to go there but if I do I would rather have a dog that finds me more interesting than other dogs, as other dogs can be such a risk factor unfortunately and sometimes their owners see nothing wrong in their behaviour :p

ETA: as Huski has already said, we are not talking about assigning a value of zero to other dogs, just that they are not as interesting as you are.

And I also don't think it precludes you being able to take your dog anywhere and everywhere. After all who would you rather have sitting next to you at a cafe, a well behaved calm dog who finds others only mildly interesting or a dog that barks and jumps up at every passer by, dog or human, because they are desparate to say hi! I value having a calm, well-behaved dog in (almost) all situations.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Quickasyoucan

[poodlefan]

The way I look at it, every time I go to a busy dog park there is some kind of incident that I witness, be it minor scuffles to full on fights. I try not to go there but if I do I would rather have a dog that finds me more interesting than other dogs, as other dogs can be such a risk factor unfortunately and sometimes their owners see nothing wrong in their behaviour

I don't consider public dog parks to be a place where its possible to do controlled socialisation.. I avoid them too.

[Cosmolo]

Quickasyoucan- i think you can get the well behaved dog at the cafe through training- even with a well socialised dog who really likes other dogs. Neutralisation is not the only way to achieve this.

[Quickasyoucan]

The way I look at it, every time I go to a busy dog park there is some kind of incident that I witness, be it minor scuffles to full on fights. I try not to go there but if I do I would rather have a dog that finds me more interesting than other dogs, as other dogs can be such a risk factor unfortunately and sometimes their owners see nothing wrong in their behaviour

I don't consider public dog parks to be a place where its possible to do controlled socialisation.. I avoid them too.

Yeah I mentioned it because the OP did.

I get my goat up also when people try to force "socialisation" on their dogs, do they not get it that some dogs just don't really want to play with others, I just don't think it is the be all and end all of life, though I think for some people it is an excuse to let them off the hook for interacting with the dog themselves. This is not directed at people here btw but just some people I have come across.

[Quickasyoucan]

Quickasyoucan- i think you can get the well behaved dog at the cafe through training- even with a well socialised dog who really likes other dogs. Neutralisation is not the only way to achieve this.

Yes I understand that, but if you don't create the high value in the first place then you wouldn't have to rein in the enthusiasm through training.

I think the problem also lies in the word "neutralisation" Steve has said it himself, but he wanted to differentiate between that and what is commonly perceived as socialisation.

I quite like PF's controlled socialisation term.

[huski]

If you have a good recall, it shouldn't be a problem. Dogs are just one distraction that you need to proof for. Even if your dog regarded dogs as uninteresting, there would be other highly motivating distractions that could create issues. I know all about kangaroos in that department.

Controlled socialisation should incorporate using recalls and rewards to obtain focus, as well as obtaining focus before allowing socialisation to occur. :cool:

Methinks many of the issues owners encounter with socialisation is about how its done. I'm talking about pets here though, not working dogs.

But, and this is a serious question for those who understand this all better than I do, would a dog who has been neutralised to see various distractions as of a low value and nothing as exciting as what the owner has to offer i.e. the dog has been conditioned to see everything that's good/exciting as coming through the owner, be less likely to be easily distracted by 'new' experiences like seeing a kangaroo? And less likely to seek it out (say as a prey drive thing) because it looks to the owner for permission first? I mean in comparison to a dog who is trained with the traditional socialisation method of assigning a high positive value to new experiences like other people and other dogs and as such, the dog has been conditioned to seek rewards/satisfaction away from the handler.

Edited May 26, 2009 by huski

[Nekhbet]

Yes I understand that, but if you don't create the high value in the first place then you wouldn't have to rein in the enthusiasm through training.

differentiate between lack of control and high value. Why is it high value to the dog - because you show it no different. A dog can have time and place, even a command when it can play with others.

Huski you are now going into what a trained dog would do. What happens is dependant on what the handler says so. I dont let my dogs chase things, I have a command to shut them down if something peaks their interest and they darn well listen to it.

What you do will be dependant on the temperament of your dog. I see nothing wrong with making things exciting if you have a dog low in confidence, you want to encourage them and then you can work on reigning that back in later when the dog is more confident with being in that situation etc

[poodlefan]

If you have a good recall, it shouldn't be a problem. Dogs are just one distraction that you need to proof for. Even if your dog regarded dogs as uninteresting, there would be other highly motivating distractions that could create issues. I know all about kangaroos in that department. :cool:

Controlled socialisation should incorporate using recalls and rewards to obtain focus, as well as obtaining focus before allowing socialisation to occur. :p

Methinks many of the issues owners encounter with socialisation is about how its done. I'm talking about pets here though, not working dogs.

But, and this is a serious question for those who understand this all better than I do, would a dog who has been neutralised to see various distractions as of a low value and nothing as exciting as what the owner has to offer i.e. the dog has been conditioned to see everything that's good/exciting as coming through the owner, be less likely to be easily distracted by 'new' experiences like seeing a kangaroo? And less likely to seek it out (say as a prey drive thing) because it looks to the owner for permission first? I mean in comparison to a dog who is trained with the traditional socialisation method of assigning a high positive value to new experiences like other people and other dogs and as such, the dog has been conditioned to seek rewards/satisfaction away from the handler.

Short of creating Stockholm Syndrome, I don't see how you could create a dog that viewed everything but the owner as "neutral". How can you neutralise for something the dog has never experienced. How can you compleltely neutralise a natural drive??

IMO it's not the value the dog places on the distraction that's important but the owner's ability to get the dog's focus. They are not the same thing. If you control the dog's behaviour in the face of highly motivating distractions, that's more desireable to me than creating a dog that finds nothing but its handler exciting.

[Nekhbet]

thats where the crating/penning unless working comes in. I dont like it, its not the life for an average dog.

Huski you look at yourself before you look at the dog. People focus on changing the dog when it could be handler mediated. Why is your dog not paying enough attention to you - are you boring, do you give low value treats, do you treat too often, are you too forgiving/stretchy and are the dogs able to get around your wishes etc. I socialised all my dogs everywhere, they live together and yet time with me is more important them with each other. Why? Cos i have cool toys, I have the food, I tell them what to do. The other dog is there as something to do when I'm out. Didnt have to deprive them for that, in fact I did the opposite - socialised the hell out of them. But during I did everything i could to show I was the boss from the moment they arrived and its stuck.

[huski]

Huski you are now going into what a trained dog would do. What happens is dependant on what the handler says so. I dont let my dogs chase things, I have a command to shut them down if something peaks their interest and they darn well listen to it.

What you do will be dependant on the temperament of your dog. I see nothing wrong with making things exciting if you have a dog low in confidence, you want to encourage them and then you can work on reigning that back in later when the dog is more confident with being in that situation etc

I think it goes back to having different words for a similar thing, why would a dog obey you if they don't see you as someone worth listening to? The dog has to see you as relatively high value to want to listen to you in the first place.

And I agree I would make something exciting if the dog had a negative value for it and it was impacting on the dog's confidence.

Short of creating Stockholm Syndrome, I don't see how you could create a dog that viewed everything but the owner as "neutral". How can you neutralise for something the dog has never experienced. How can you compleltely neutralise a natural drive??

IMO it's not the value the dog places on the distraction that's important but the owner's ability to get the dog's focus. They are not the same thing. If you control the dog's behaviour in the face of highly motivating distractions, that's more desireable to me than creating a dog that finds nothing but its handler exciting.

I don't think I worded my post the right way... I was wondering if a dog that has been neutralised would be less likely to find new experiences distracting than a dog who has been socialised to see everything as super exciting and in some cases, more exciting than whatever the handler could offer. I guess I have always thought that to get my dog's focus I have to be higher value than whatever it is they are distracted by.

And again I don't want a dog that finds nothing but me exciting, but a dog that sees me and what I can offer as the *most* exciting thing there is.

thats where the crating/penning unless working comes in. I dont like it, its not the life for an average dog.

Huski you look at yourself before you look at the dog. People focus on changing the dog when it could be handler mediated. Why is your dog not paying enough attention to you - are you boring, do you give low value treats, do you treat too often, are you too forgiving/stretchy and are the dogs able to get around your wishes etc. I socialised all my dogs everywhere, they live together and yet time with me is more important them with each other. Why? Cos i have cool toys, I have the food, I tell them what to do. The other dog is there as something to do when I'm out. Didnt have to deprive them for that, in fact I did the opposite - socialised the hell out of them. But during I did everything i could to show I was the boss from the moment they arrived and its stuck.

I don't think you're saying anything that different to what I am trying to, Nekhbet - going by the above post your dogs do see you as higher value than anything else. And again my interpretation of 'neutralisation' isn't that you don't socialise your dog, just that you do it in a controlled manner where you don't inadvertently teach your dog that various distractions (like other dogs) are way more exciting than you or what you have to offer.

Edited May 26, 2009 by huski

[poodlefan]

Huski:

I was wondering if a dog that has been neutralised would be less likely to find new experiences distracting than a dog who has been socialised to see everything as super exciting

I don't see heightened arousal as a goal of socialisation Huski. Tolerance and perhaps enjoyment, but not heightened excitement.

[huski]

Huski:

I was wondering if a dog that has been neutralised would be less likely to find new experiences distracting than a dog who has been socialised to see everything as super exciting

I don't see heightened arousal as a goal of socialisation Huski. Tolerance and perhaps enjoyment, but not heightened excitement.

I guess 'socialisation' can have different meanings to different people - you only need to look at the number of dogs you see whose owners intentionally socialised them to see other dogs as super exciting and an instance where they think it's good for a dog to have heightened excitement, the number of dogs who can't walk past another one without getting excited, barking, jumping, wanting to engage in play etc. And the owners don't see a problem with it because their dog has been 'well socialised'.

[poodlefan]

Huski:

I was wondering if a dog that has been neutralised would be less likely to find new experiences distracting than a dog who has been socialised to see everything as super exciting

I don't see heightened arousal as a goal of socialisation Huski. Tolerance and perhaps enjoyment, but not heightened excitement.

I guess 'socialisation' can have different meanings to different people - you only need to look at the number of dogs you see whose owners intentionally socialised them to see other dogs as super exciting and an instance where they think it's good for a dog to have heightened excitement, the number of dogs who can't walk past another one without getting excited, barking, jumping, wanting to engage in play etc. And the owners don't see a problem with it because their dog has been 'well socialised'.

I think it's a misunderstanding of the process. To me a well socialised dog is the one that takes everything in its stride.. dogs, people, buses, animals.. not one that's jumping out of its skin and hyper aroused.

[huski]

I think it's a misunderstanding of the process. To me a well socialised dog is the one that takes everything in its stride.. dogs, people, buses, animals.. not one that's jumping out of its skin and hyper aroused.

Oh, I definitely agree But sadly I think there is a lot of misinterpration when it comes what socialisation is and that's when you see people starting to run into problems.

[poodlefan]

I think it's a misunderstanding of the process. To me a well socialised dog is the one that takes everything in its stride.. dogs, people, buses, animals.. not one that's jumping out of its skin and hyper aroused.

Oh, I definitely agree But sadly I think there is a lot of misinterpration when it comes what socialisation is and that's when you see people starting to run into problems.

Well, we both know the most common misconception.. taking your pup to the offlead park and letting it get slammed and picked on as "socialisaition".

K9Force wants his dogs neutralised for good reason.. he needs more focus from a working dog than I do from my pets.

I want my dogs socialised for good reason - it makes them better canine citizens and companions.. but I'm happy to call for focus rather than expect it more or less all the time.

If you can't get your dogs focus at all.. that's a training issue.