Walking Question

[Cosmolo]

Huski, i am a little confused. It might just be the cold weather- freezing my feet and my brain!) Do you train differently to when you walk? If so, why?

[huski]

Huski, i am a little confused. It might just be the cold weather- freezing my feet and my brain!) Do you train differently to when you walk? If so, why?

Sorry, it's my fault for not being clear Having a bit of a bad day as you know

I do drive training with Daisy but we're only in an earlier module so we aren't really at a point where we would train in a higher distraction environment like the park. So I don't do drive training when I walk her - at this stage anyway

[Nekhbet]

you are doing too many things and its all over the place. Still you need to get them under control together, apart etc and I think move from training and get back to control.

She's not ignoring me on purpose she's running on pure adrenaline.

as for this - nope she's not. She knows that you really wont do anything to stop her and she can get away with it so she will.

Thanks for the feedback Shell. Mish and Daisy have no interest in each other when I walk them together, but they still seem to feed on each others excitement. It's only if mum walks away with Micha (i.e. walks across the sports oval) and Daisy can still see Micha that she loses focus on me and wants to run over to where Micha is. If mum walked out of sight with Micha then Daisy gets over it almost instantly.

My comment still stands your control is borderline over the dogs. When together they feed off each other more then you and the handlers do not do enough to show them what is acceptable or not in a way they understand 100%. As I said ditch the food and start working on the like it or lump it principle. They get a verbal praise from you or a correction from the collar and thats it on walks. They should know how to walk on a leash by now so put away the treats they're not babies.

[huski]

I knew I would get told off for taking treats on walks. It's so hard to know whats right and whats wrong, you think you are doing an ok job handling them and then someone else tells you everything you are doing is wrong, you have no control over your dogs whatsoever and your handling is crap.

I have no problems walking them on their own. I know they aren't perfect which is why I asked for advice about what I could do differently when we walk them together.

Edited July 2, 2009 by huski

[Nekhbet]

Huski you do what is right for your dogs. You know your dogs, you dont need everyones advice at the same time. If it's not working or helping - then its wrong. Right and wrong is different for every dog.

They are not babies they dont need treats anymore and they're not responding to them - so you move on.

you do not have complete control - so you try something else. Dont over dramatise because I never said you had no control at all. I said it is borderline - low distraction you will have better control then when their pack member is in close vicinity, it is common.

Move away from all the training books, treats, methods etc and simply put your foot down. Like it or lump it puppies mum is in charge end of story. If you cannot give good corrections invest in e-collars.

you need to work more one by one then move them to closer proximity and work from there.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Nekhbet

[huski]

They do respond to treats - both of them do, very well, it's just not 100% of the time. But thanks for the advice as it's given me lots to think about.

[rexiam]

Its late and I am little confused..

Are you trying to train them to do other things while you are walking two, or having trouble just walking them together?

Rex( 2 Retriever Male ) and Sam ( 9 Retriever X lab female) used to be awful to walk together and I eventually stopped. Sam was always a puller. One day I just said "Nope, I want to walk them together and I will" Well I kept plodding along and one of the things that worked for me was everytime Sam would pull I would change direction. i used a choke chain as well. Rex was a darling and he never was a problem, so just having to get one under control was easier. No treats.... i don't buy treats for the kids at the supermarket, so the dogs don't get any either. Its just a walk in my eyes. Sam used to always go nuts if another dog would come along, in the end she didn't even look at another dog.

Before they both passed away 10 weeks ago walks were just wonderful. I was calm, dogs were calm and kids used to come on there bikes too. I treasure those memories.

Don't give up and don't stress...you will get there. Think Positive and it will happen.

We know have 2, 13 week old puppies...lab and a Retriever. So far so good They like to walk on the same side together, and thats fine with me. After about 5 mins they settle in to it and so far so good.

[Jigsaw]

It seems like Daisy's bond to Micha is slightly stronger than her bond to you (looking for Micha, doesn't like being left behind). Sometimes it can take a little experimentation to find what works best for you in your situation. As Nekhbet suggested continue working one on one with them. I would look also at Daisy's behaviour before you start on the walk with Micha - what's happening then, before you get out the door?

[Rex]

You are best to give her a damn good hard leash correction, about turn when she pulls and yank the leash as hard as you can in the opposite direction and pull her off her feet as you keep walking in that direction until she heels. A couple of those will teach her that her choice to ignor you has an unpleasant result. She has your measure and is out smarting you at present with the treats. My German Shepherd used to do exactly that to the point he could pull my wife off her feet with a sudden scent drive and she fell over hurting her ankle on one occassion. In heel, our boy after 2 harsh corrections doesn't sniff at all and heels for as far as we can walk.

That's my point though... if I gave her a 'damn good hard leash correction' when she's in full scent drive it won't affect her. I could pull her up on her back legs with the leash and she would still have her nose out trying to smell things. She's not ignoring me on purpose she's running on pure adrenaline. I'm not too worried about the scenting as we are working on drive training at the moment so I know it will improve the further we come in training.

A proper leash correction is not yanking the leash backwards when they are already at the end of the leash straining. At heel the leash should be short with the slack gathered up in your right hand. When they pull forward ahead of you, as in scent drive as you explained, drop the slack and about turn with the "yank" occurring as they reach the end of the leash and it "will" effect them from the sudden halt and gain their attention. She is ignoring you on purpose when she ignores a command that she knows, she is being defiant knowing full well that she will get away with it. My GSD not only had scent drives and would pull on the leash, he has a high level of civil aggression lunging on the leash to bite people approaching us which "no" treats would counteract. The leash work given to us by a police K9 trainer fixed the disobediance problems entirely to the point now he heels off leash under voice control.

Good luck

[Rex]

Huski you do what is right for your dogs. You know your dogs, you dont need everyones advice at the same time. If it's not working or helping - then its wrong. Right and wrong is different for every dog.

They are not babies they dont need treats anymore and they're not responding to them - so you move on.

you do not have complete control - so you try something else. Dont over dramatise because I never said you had no control at all. I said it is borderline - low distraction you will have better control then when their pack member is in close vicinity, it is common.

Move away from all the training books, treats, methods etc and simply put your foot down. Like it or lump it puppies mum is in charge end of story. If you cannot give good corrections invest in e-collars.

you need to work more one by one then move them to closer proximity and work from there.

Excellent advice, I totally agree

[huski]

I think I've given the impression that Daisy's pulling is really bad. It's not at all, like I said, majority of the time she's really well behaved. I was just wondering why she and Micha are more frisky and tend to muck around when they are walked together. And it's not behaviour that's severe or uncontrollable - they appear more easily distracted and less focused on me.

I know some people think using treats are a cop out, I just want to make it clear that never use the treats to bribe or lure the dogs, I only use them as a reward if they comply with a command I give. And I don't give them every time either, sometimes I just give them praise. Obviously using treats has worked for me on some level because both my dogs have very good leash manners in the vast majority of cases. I also said earlier that I DO give leash corrections if Daisy ignores my commands although it doesn't happen very often.

I wish I hadn't mentioned the very rare occasions that Daisy gets stuck on a scent so much she ignores my commands because it obviously has come across as though I'm a terrible handler who doesn't have a clue what I'm doing and whose dogs have no respect for me etc, and that I have to rely on treats to get my dogs to obey me. I don't at all but I like to reward them when they do the right thing. If that makes me a bad dog handler because my dogs should be happy to only ever work for praise then so be it

ETA: Rex, I do use the change of direction technique, and I do give a leash correction when I do so. As hard as it must be for some people to believe as my dogs must sound terribly behaved and very poorly trained going by some of the posts here, Daisy actually already does pretty good off leash heel work.

Edited July 2, 2009 by huski

[Nekhbet]

I wish I hadn't mentioned the very rare occasions that Daisy gets stuck on a scent so much she ignores my commands because it obviously has come across as though I'm a terrible handler who doesn't have a clue what I'm doing and whose dogs have no respect for me etc, and that I have to rely on treats to get my dogs to obey me. I don't at all but I like to reward them when they do the right thing. If that makes me a bad dog handler because my dogs should be happy to only ever work for praise then so be it

again no one said this at all.

Advice has been given no the information you provided. I never said you were a horrible person I just said put the treats away because you now need more focus not just a yummy reward and sometimes food can be a trap for that. Teach more focus from them and they will stop feeding off each other.

[Rex]

I think I've given the impression that Daisy's pulling is really bad. It's not at all, like I said, majority of the time she's really well behaved. I was just wondering why she and Micha are more frisky and tend to muck around when they are walked together. And it's not behaviour that's severe or uncontrollable - they appear more easily distracted and less focused on me.

I know some people think using treats are a cop out, I just want to make it clear that never use the treats to bribe or lure the dogs, I only use them as a reward if they comply with a command I give. And I don't give them every time either, sometimes I just give them praise. Obviously using treats has worked for me on some level because both my dogs have very good leash manners in the vast majority of cases. I also said earlier that I DO give leash corrections if Daisy ignores my commands although it doesn't happen very often.

I wish I hadn't mentioned the very rare occasions that Daisy gets stuck on a scent so much she ignores my commands because it obviously has come across as though I'm a terrible handler who doesn't have a clue what I'm doing and whose dogs have no respect for me etc, and that I have to rely on treats to get my dogs to obey me. I don't at all but I like to reward them when they do the right thing. If that makes me a bad dog handler because my dogs should be happy to only ever work for praise then so be it

ETA: Rex, I do use the change of direction technique, and I do give a leash correction when I do so. As hard as it must be for some people to believe as my dogs must sound terribly behaved and very poorly trained going by some of the posts here, Daisy actually already does pretty good off leash heel work.

Huski,

I don't think you are a bad dog handler quite the opposite given that you have taken responsiblity to perfect your techniques and asked for others opinions in an area that isn't working so well is a good thing, great in fact Many can't be bothered trying to rectify a training problem and put it in the too hard basket which amounts to half a hearted handler, which isn't you!!!.

I like the positive reinforcement methods and the treats because I adore my GSD and hope to achieve a special bond with him and make training a pleasant experience not fling him around on the end of a choker chain and distress him, but as I mentioned previously, he is naturally aggressive from a bloodline of security/police dog backgrounds wanting to lunge at and bite people outside of his family and friend base which was a serious problem that couldn't be allowed to continue and a training method had to used to correct the problem fast. It wasn't a minor disobediance we could afford to mess around with using techniques that didn't appear to be helping.

Harsh leash corrections isn't something I enjoy to administer, in fact I often pet him and tell him I am sorry for being hard on him after our walks when returning home, but trying to bite people is intolerable and the corrections have worked absolutely perfectly in all regards a total breakthrough for us in gaining his total focus.

[Nekhbet]

Rex try a prong collar on your GSD you'll find you wont need as hard a correction for your dog.

Check chains do not distress dogs unless you are doing it wrong. Dont feel too sorry for your dog or apologise because he sure as hell has no issues administering an aggressive response towards a person. Yes teach him train him but dont feel sorry for a correction that moves his learning foreward. Being a good strong leader will form a stronger bond with your dog just as much as treats and hugs especially for dogs from more serious lines.

[corvus]

Kivi Tarro is significantly more responsive when I walk him on his own as well. But he's just less distracted by what everyone else is doing because it's just him and me. Penny was always the opposite and was better behaved when she was with other dogs. She has always used it as an opportunity to be an angel and get all the praise and love and so forth. I remember walking Penny and my mum's two dogs on my own and I always found it stressful and frustrating. The dogs weren't used to the way I did things and they were scatty. I watched my mother walk the three of them and she had them all sorted out. It turned out most of the problems I was having was just me upsetting the routine. If you don't have a routine with Misha and Daisy, maybe that's half your problem?

I haven't used leash corrections on Kivi and he's generally very good. I was forced to hang Penny on a check chain a couple of times when we got charged by other dogs and she froze. The only way to get her clear of the charging dog was haul her bodily out of the way using the leash, which hapened to be attached to the check chain, of course. I stopped using them after the second time because I thought they were dangerous and it's one of the best things I've ever done. I like the passive approach. It suits me far better and it's a hell of a lot more difficult for me to mess up. These days I'm a classical conditioning with verbal cues/be a tree kinda gal. The treats come out when I need something to be rock solid and reliable. Haven't needed leash corrections yet.