Staranais Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) I understand that you have been taught this perspective, it has worked for you, and so you believe it to be true. But might I respectfully suggest that you are missing a part of the picture? If you google "L. David Mech" you will find a man who truly understands wolf behaviour because he has observed wolves, in the wild, for most of his life and taken detailed notes of what he has seen. He is, to my knowledge, the man who coined the term "alpha" in scientific circles - a move which he now regrets as it has caused so much confusion. He now calls the alpha male and female simply the "breeding pair", which has all the correct connotations and none of the incorrect connotations. Yes, I was going to suggest David Mech. He knows a lot about how wolf packs really work. Raymond and Laura Coppinger's popular science book on canine evolution is worth a read, too. It's probably in your local library. (Edited to add: OMG, this ended up ahead of the post I was quoting. How bizarre.) Edited October 28, 2009 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) edited to remove double-post Edited October 28, 2009 by Aidan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 anyone seen this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 anyone seen this? Yes. It's about people who want to live with wild animals on the animals terms. I'm certainly not going to be dragging a roo carcass into my back yard and eating its liver first to ensure my dogs respect me. I don't see a direct comparison to establishing a bond of trust and respect with a domesticated dog. For a start, they don't want the wolves to function in their home or in society. I don't see them taking the wolves walking in public on a loose lead, expecting their wolves to tolerate the presence of strange people or wolves or obedience training them to recall on cue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Aw, come on, PF - you, a dead roo, a poodle and a whippet - now THAT would make great television Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 anyone seen this? Yes. It's about people who want to live with wild animals on the animals terms. I'm certainly not going to be dragging a roo carcass into my back yard and eating its liver first to ensure my dogs respect me. I don't see a direct comparison to establishing a bond of trust and respect with a domesticated dog. For a start, they don't want the wolves to function in their home or in society. I don't see them taking the wolves walking in public on a loose lead, expecting their wolves to tolerate the presence of strange people or wolves or obedience training them to recall on cue. well i think the principles are the same when it comes to you as the leader and your dog as the follower. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Aw, come on, PF - you, a dead roo, a poodle and a whippet - now THAT would make great television There was a dead roo just up the end of my street two nights ago.. I'm sure the dogs would have loved it. Roo offal carries hydatits though.. even cooked, I'd not eat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 anyone seen this? Yes. It's about people who want to live with wild animals on the animals terms. I'm certainly not going to be dragging a roo carcass into my back yard and eating its liver first to ensure my dogs respect me. I don't see a direct comparison to establishing a bond of trust and respect with a domesticated dog. For a start, they don't want the wolves to function in their home or in society. I don't see them taking the wolves walking in public on a loose lead, expecting their wolves to tolerate the presence of strange people or wolves or obedience training them to recall on cue. well i think the principles are the same when it comes to you as the leader and your dog as the follower. JMO Was Shaun Ellis the leader of his pack of (captive) adult wolves? Not from the interviews I've read. He had to defer to at least some of the wolves to be "allowed" to remain with the pack. Interesting to read about, but not my idea of a good technique to use with my dog. Luckily, my dog isn't a wolf, so she's been bred for thousands of years to communicate with humans and look to humans for direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 anyone seen this? Yes. It's about people who want to live with wild animals on the animals terms. I'm certainly not going to be dragging a roo carcass into my back yard and eating its liver first to ensure my dogs respect me. I don't see a direct comparison to establishing a bond of trust and respect with a domesticated dog. For a start, they don't want the wolves to function in their home or in society. I don't see them taking the wolves walking in public on a loose lead, expecting their wolves to tolerate the presence of strange people or wolves or obedience training them to recall on cue. well i think the principles are the same when it comes to you as the leader and your dog as the follower. JMO So you would happily use techniques you have described on your own dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 anyone seen this? Yes. It's about people who want to live with wild animals on the animals terms. I'm certainly not going to be dragging a roo carcass into my back yard and eating its liver first to ensure my dogs respect me. I don't see a direct comparison to establishing a bond of trust and respect with a domesticated dog. For a start, they don't want the wolves to function in their home or in society. I don't see them taking the wolves walking in public on a loose lead, expecting their wolves to tolerate the presence of strange people or wolves or obedience training them to recall on cue. well i think the principles are the same when it comes to you as the leader and your dog as the follower. JMO Those principles would see you as the alpha killing or driving off all human or canine visitors to your territory and constantly marking the boundaries with your urine and faeces.. how far do you want to go with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 More good ideas for TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 More good ideas for TV Leading the pack on hunting expeditions to the supermarket, butchers and Leonards would be good for ratings. Oh and the dust up defending pack rights to the local dog park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 And don't forget everyone in the house eating the raw meat only diet, so that they "smell right" to the dogs! Yummy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 More good ideas for TV Now that's reality television! Seriously though, if I did to my dogs what Heidi is recommending they'd shut down on me. Or maybe tolerate it because I already have their trust and respect, but get terribly stressed and confused. My dogs have similarities to wolves. They are not wolves. (Their ancestors used to hunt wolves, and some of their breed still do, but that's another story). They don't think I am a wolf or dog. I do agree that clear communication is important, but those techniques would be an unmitigated recipe for disaster with my lot. As I understand it a lot of the entrenched beliefs about wolf packs are very dodgy anyway. Lots of the early observational work was done on reconsituted packs of unrelated adult wolves where behaviour is not typical of a stable pack. And there is a lot we still don't know. Anyone else hear the report of the recent study that showed that the breeding pair don't do the hunting? By the time they have the positon as the breeding couple apparently they are physically past their prime and leave the killing to the younger pack members. Maybe dragging the roo carcass home would be giving the wrong message after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 anyone seen this? Yes. It's about people who want to live with wild animals on the animals terms. I'm certainly not going to be dragging a roo carcass into my back yard and eating its liver first to ensure my dogs respect me. I don't see a direct comparison to establishing a bond of trust and respect with a domesticated dog. For a start, they don't want the wolves to function in their home or in society. I don't see them taking the wolves walking in public on a loose lead, expecting their wolves to tolerate the presence of strange people or wolves or obedience training them to recall on cue. well i think the principles are the same when it comes to you as the leader and your dog as the follower. JMO So you would happily use techniques you have described on your own dogs? OF CORSE, I have said that!...but theres a difference, i dont have an agressive, untrustworthy dog...we have built up a relationship where he unders that i am pack leader and he is below me...and there are times that i intimidate him on purpose to reinforce that role....thats just one of MY techniques with training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 anyone seen this? Yes. It's about people who want to live with wild animals on the animals terms. I'm certainly not going to be dragging a roo carcass into my back yard and eating its liver first to ensure my dogs respect me. I don't see a direct comparison to establishing a bond of trust and respect with a domesticated dog. For a start, they don't want the wolves to function in their home or in society. I don't see them taking the wolves walking in public on a loose lead, expecting their wolves to tolerate the presence of strange people or wolves or obedience training them to recall on cue. well i think the principles are the same when it comes to you as the leader and your dog as the follower. JMO Was Shaun Ellis the leader of his pack of (captive) adult wolves? Not from the interviews I've read. He had to defer to at least some of the wolves to be "allowed" to remain with the pack. Interesting to read about, but not my idea of a good technique to use with my dog. Luckily, my dog isn't a wolf, so she's been bred for thousands of years to communicate with humans and look to humans for direction. she can communicate with humans can she?????.... How did you teach her to talk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 anyone seen this? Yes. It's about people who want to live with wild animals on the animals terms. I'm certainly not going to be dragging a roo carcass into my back yard and eating its liver first to ensure my dogs respect me. I don't see a direct comparison to establishing a bond of trust and respect with a domesticated dog. For a start, they don't want the wolves to function in their home or in society. I don't see them taking the wolves walking in public on a loose lead, expecting their wolves to tolerate the presence of strange people or wolves or obedience training them to recall on cue. well i think the principles are the same when it comes to you as the leader and your dog as the follower. JMO Was Shaun Ellis the leader of his pack of (captive) adult wolves? Not from the interviews I've read. He had to defer to at least some of the wolves to be "allowed" to remain with the pack. Interesting to read about, but not my idea of a good technique to use with my dog. Luckily, my dog isn't a wolf, so she's been bred for thousands of years to communicate with humans and look to humans for direction. she can communicate with humans can she?????.... How did you teach her to talk? Yup, she surely can and does. If you think your dogs don't try to communicate with you, I think you need to pay more attention to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Diva: And there is a lot we still don't know. Anyone else hear the report of the recent study that showed that the breeding pair don't do the hunting? By the time they have the positon as the breeding couple apparently they are physically past their prime and leave the killing to the younger pack members. Maybe dragging the roo carcass home would be giving the wrong message after all. Yes, I've read that apart from breeding, "leadership" can be a somewhat fluid concept in a pack. The best hunter leads the hunt, the best defender leads territory defence and so on. Using a strict pack hierachy principle, you could never ask or expect your lower ranked dog to defend you. Of course all of this goes out the window if you work. Alphas don't leave the pack for 8 hours a day to do their own thing. Edited October 29, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) she can communicate with humans can she?????.... How did you teach her to talk? Are you suggesting that human - dog communication is a one way street? You do all the "talking" and they tell you nothing? How can a human be part of a pack if the pack members can't communicate with them? Edited October 29, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 anyone seen this? Interesting that you bring up Shaun Ellis, I have been following him since he was interviewed in Australasian Working Dog. Do you realise that he had to be the Omega in that pack? It was safest for him to be at the bottom of the bottom, the stress relief valve for the rest of the pack. There is nothing in what he did that would help you train a dog, or even a wolf, let alone be any sort of leader. As interesting as his experiment is, it doesn't actually teach us very much of practical value and I would seriously question it's scientific value also. I could stand to be corrected on that, but that is my opinion at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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