oakway Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Yes, we speak to the TOP people in their field and yes, they give us answers. Then we tell the vet. Shouldn't that be the other way round.? Then you all wonder why we get cranky with SOME vets.!!! Then you wonder why when we inform people on lists. Usually this knowledge that we have acquired is first put into practice on our own litters and we find that it works. Don't get mad with us because we have inquiring minds. So don't get mad with me for asking you to clarify or back up the information you provide. I have an inquiring mind too. Turns out Dr Jean Dodds is much more conservative in what she claims about vaccine side effects than many people on this thread have been (although obviously much more convinced of the importance of vaccine side effects than many vets are)... interesting to get the info straight from the horse's mouth. Thanks for the email address, Oakway. Pardon...... what did *I* say ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Yes, we speak to the TOP people in their field and yes, they give us answers. Then we tell the vet. Shouldn't that be the other way round.? Then you all wonder why we get cranky with SOME vets.!!! Then you wonder why when we inform people on lists. Usually this knowledge that we have acquired is first put into practice on our own litters and we find that it works. Don't get mad with us because we have inquiring minds. So don't get mad with me for asking you to clarify or back up the information you provide. I have an inquiring mind too. Turns out Dr Jean Dodds is much more conservative in what she claims about vaccine side effects than many people on this thread have been (although obviously much more convinced of the importance of vaccine side effects than many vets are)... interesting to get the info straight from the horse's mouth. Thanks for the email address, Oakway. Something just popped into my thoughts. You said you had mailed Jean Dodds so why thank me for the addy. You must have already had it. I also would like a copy of her reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Yes, we speak to the TOP people in their field and yes, they give us answers. Then we tell the vet. Shouldn't that be the other way round.? Then you all wonder why we get cranky with SOME vets.!!! Then you wonder why when we inform people on lists. Usually this knowledge that we have acquired is first put into practice on our own litters and we find that it works. Don't get mad with us because we have inquiring minds. So don't get mad with me for asking you to clarify or back up the information you provide. I have an inquiring mind too. Turns out Dr Jean Dodds is much more conservative in what she claims about vaccine side effects than many people on this thread have been (although obviously much more convinced of the importance of vaccine side effects than many vets are)... interesting to get the info straight from the horse's mouth. Thanks for the email address, Oakway. Something just popped into my thoughts. You said you had mailed Jean Dodds so why thank me for the addy. You must have already had it. I also would like a copy of her reply. Yes, Erny PMed it to me, so I thanked her via PM. I thanked you too, because you gave it to me too. Is that an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Is it possible for you to just post some of her quotes in this thread for everyone to see? The general gist we got from her talk was not about the dangers, side effects, vaccines causing cancer etc etc, but more so that it is simply unnecessary. She stressed how important it was to vaccinate, but just insisted there were right and wrong times to do so. Edited November 2, 2009 by stormie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 The Jean Dodds DVD is available to MDBA members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Erny Should this now work in the opposite, given the AVA's position statement pertaining to vaccination protocol on a 3-yearly basis? I mean, if Vets are out there advocating yearly vaccs and the dog suffers a side effect or other disease as a result, could not THAT Vet be sued for recommending in opposition to the AVA protocol? Or is it a case that it would be very unlikely that anyone would be able to prove 'cause' due to the potential for reactions to not show immediately? The problem is proving that the problems were caused by the vaccine. There is a compelling body of information out there, from lots of different researchers, but unfortunately, there are also websites which are hysterical. To actually prove anything at law would be a different matter. If you are drunk, and go to sleep on the highway, and wake up with a broken leg, and tyre prints on the skin over your tibia, on the balance of possibilities, you were probably run over by a car. But there is no enduring proof. And you probably can't sue the owner of the Holden who drives on that road nightly at midnight. Re the boxers and cancer - we are doing somthing to them that we began doing in the 80s. It could be environment, or it could be diet, or something else. It could be vaccinations too. There is nothing to suggest diet or enironment, but the British Journal of Cancer suggests long term over activation of the immune system could be a major cause of cancer. The only thing which changed with my own dogs was the vaccines. The ancestors of those boxers, and their immediate relations (uncles, aunts, sisters, brothers etc) all died from "normal" causes. So I cannot accept the diagnosis of "hereditary" or "genetic" which is bandied about so freely - without any proof. The diet was the same. There may have been cancer causing addtives that I was not aware of in the food from the 1980s on, but there is no proof of that, rather there is research which suggests that vaccines may be the problem. It's easy to say "hereditary" but in my case, I have records. If your parents and grandparents and greatgrandparents, uncles and aunts, etc died of non cancer related ailments, it is 100% unlikely that it is hereditary. Most people don't have accurate records going back 20 years - but one line isn't enough for a study or definitive proof. If you vaccinate 5 perfectly healthy pups, and 4 are flat and very ill within an hour, and despite supportive treatment, die within 24 hours, you may think the vaccines were responsible. Many breeders have had the same experience. How many chihuahuas and poms have either fits, or die following vaccinations. A lot. If your dog has atopic dermatitis, and you vaccinate annually, then cease the vaccinations when the dog is 6 and the dermatitis resolves 15 months later never to return, you might consider quite a few causes. Constant use of incorrect shampoo can derange the skin so much that atopic dermatitis is the enduring result, but that would not disappear when you ceased vaccination. If you sell a perfectly healthy pup, with no health problems, and it develops an extremely severe form of leukemia within 4 weeks of an annual vaccine, you might just wonder. When you sell a pup which reaches 3 years without any health problems at all, and it develops ketoneacidosis, without any prior signs of diabetes, and has to be pts within days, you wonder. When the dog has received annual C7 vaccinations religiously, and last one within 3 weeks of the problem appearing, you wonder. And when no related dog has ever exhibited any signs of diabetes you might discount hereditary issues. When a breeder friend phones because the pup she sold was vaccinated at 12 weeks, and given a heart worm injection too, and proceeded to have series of fits within 4 hours of vaccinations. The breeder took the pup back. The fits proceeded, but by the time the dog was two, had stopped. She wasn't vaccinated again. She has adult progeny now, none have had fits. You wonder. A lot of dogs have experienced very similar problems and many others, within x days of vaccinations. There is a lot of information from Dr Ronald Schulz, Dr Bob Rogers, WSAVA, and the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task force, all of which is well documented and researched. Legal liability and best practice, from where I am sitting anyhow - is not always the same. And I don't think anyone came here to bag vets, but when breeders are accused of being unethical because they have researched and come to conclusions which don't agree with those of some vets, there are bound to be defensive posts. But tincture of time will provide proof. The fact that the AVA has changed the vaccination protocol from 1 to 3 years is a positive sign, imho. Even if it took the threat of law suits to do it Edited November 2, 2009 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavalier Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 If you vaccinate 5 perfectly healthy pups, and 4 are flat and very ill within an hour, and despite supportive treatment, die within 24 hours, you may think the vaccines were responsible. Many breeders have had the same experience. How many chihuahuas and poms have either fits, or die following vaccinations. A lot. Im yet to see one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavalier Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 So if these severe life threating reactions to vaccines are so common, why arent vets like myself, and my good friends (who I discuss these things with regularly) have NEVER seen anything more severe than a swollen face or a local reaction at the site of vaccination??? As I have stated before, I personally vaccinate approximately 100 dogs/pups every week, my colleague at the practice does the same. That equals 10400 dogs per year on average. Thats a pretty good sample size if you ask me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 If you vaccinate 5 perfectly healthy pups, and 4 are flat and very ill within an hour, and despite supportive treatment, die within 24 hours, you may think the vaccines were responsible. Many breeders have had the same experience. How many chihuahuas and poms have either fits, or die following vaccinations. A lot. Im yet to see one.... You will. Might be next week, might be in 5 years, but you will. If you vaccinated EVERY pom or chi, you would have by now. It's a numbers game. Course, it might be another breed, but my dough is on the chis or the poms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) After reading through this thread which is a very interesting read, how many of us have done the annual vaccination routine, the heartworming etc etc, without adverse reactions and the dog living a long and healthy life???. With any unnatural drug interruption of the immune system could always cause a potential health threat with an adverse reaction, but at what ratio of risk factor are we talking???. If 50% of vaccinated dogs suffered adverse reactions which is of high incidence then it would be time for serious consideration, but the adverse reactions "possibly" caused by vaccination that have occurred in the vaccinated majority, what 0.1%, 2%, 10%, at what ratio of incidence is something of interest to me???. How many vaccinated dogs would have contracted disease had they not been vaccinated..........such data is near impossible to gather???. Having a dog die too young from a disease that is vaccinated against when choosing not to vaccinate, is no consulation to conclude that at least the dog died without a skin condition which "may" have occurred if I did vaccinate I would still like to see the incidence and proof expressed as a ratio of risk factor??? Edited November 2, 2009 by Diablo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 So if these severe life threating reactions to vaccines are so common, why arent vets like myself, and my good friends (who I discuss these things with regularly) have NEVER seen anything more severe than a swollen face or a local reaction at the site of vaccination??? As I have stated before, I personally vaccinate approximately 100 dogs/pups every week, my colleague at the practice does the same. That equals 10400 dogs per year on average. Thats a pretty good sample size if you ask me..... Hey, wait a minute, hang on, I am not talking about adverse reactions to vaccines. (I have had them) I am talking about Autoimmune problems caused by over vaccination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Having a dog die too young from a disease that is vaccinated against when choosing not to vaccinate, is no consulation to conclude that at least the dog died without a skin condition which "may" have occurred if I did vaccinate No one is talking about not vaccinating, although I notice from the numerous threads on this same topic that's where people make the assumption that that is what is being recommended. It is about vaccinating, establishing immunity and NOT over-vaccinating. It is about yearly vaccinations, still so commonly advocated (even in the face of the AVA's acknowledgements and recommendations) and even vaccinating for the sake of vaccinating. It is about having people believe that vaccinations top up immunity, which doesn't make sense to me - you either have immunity or you don't. And it is about the affects of the vaccination (which stimulates the immune system potentially unnecessarily, which would have to leave it vulnerable, surely?) on a dog that doesn't need the vaccination. Why stress an immune system for no good reason? And even anecdotally speaking, how can anyone claim that my previous girl's adrenal gland tumour and subsequent suspected brain tumour (which became her final demise) wasn't hastened due to her yearly vaccinations? Can anyone give me a guarantee that her immune system was not potentially overloaded by the year after year of vaccinations that (chances are) were not required? And for anyone who doesn't think vaccinations do not compromise the immune system, why is it a commonality that sick pets should not receive a vaccination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavalier Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Im sorry Erny, but yes we can claim your dogs diseases were most likely not caused by vaccinating. The reason being - nobody is yet to find any link in any study on dogs that vaccinating causes any of these diseases. It seems to me that everyone has jumped on the bandwagon of "vaccinations cause every disease imaginable". This to me does not make sense! Animals can lose immunity over time to certain diseases. This is well documented with many vaccinations. I personally have a booster for tetanus every 5 years. I do titre tests regularly and dogs titres for hepatitis and and distemper are commonly below protective levels. Yes I completely understand about memory cells etc - but we cannot measure this therefore I cannot guarantee my clients that their dogs are immune. This argument is not about whether we should vaccinate every year or not - we have already established we dont need to. This argument is about the claim everyone is making about the "fact" that vaccines cause every form of cancer imaginable, metabolic disease, endocrine diseases..... there is no evidence - people keep saying there is - if there is evidence please provide us with a link - not a link about Jean Dodds opinion, but a real scientific study that shows a direct link between these diseases and vaccination. Edited November 2, 2009 by Cavalier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Im sorry Erny, but yes we can claim your dogs diseases were most likely not caused by vaccinating. The reason being - nobody is yet to find any link in any study on dogs that vaccinating causes any of these diseases. ... This argument is about the claim everyone is making about that "fact" that vaccines cause every form of cancer imaginable, metabolic disease, endocrine diseases..... there is no evidence - people keep saying there is - if there is evidence please provide us with a link - not a link about Jean Dodds opinion, but a real scientific study that shows a direct link between these diseases and vaccination. With all due respect to your expertise, Cavalier (and I do mean that - I'm only a lowly dog trainer and passionate but dedicated dog owner whose interest is in having our pets be the best they can be), there is a point missed here. The immune system protects against disease by identifying and killing pathogens and tumour cells. If the immune system is compromised then it makes sense to me that it cannot function as well as it might and can leave the body defenceless to certain pathogens and tumour cells. The immune system must be compromised by the administration of vaccination, otherwise why don't good Vets advocate vaccination even when a pet is sick? So why couldn't it go to follow that if a dog has the propensity towards tumours, allergies, or other of these health issues that requires a healthy functioning immune system to protect it against such things, that vaccinating dogs may potentially bring about these unhealthy occurrences? You need direct evidence? Yes - for your vocation I suppose you need it. I'm not good at quoting studies nor necessarily understanding the scientific terminology of them and I do rely to a good extent on the relay of interpretation which is a bit closer to my 'layperson' level of comprehension in these things. Where is the evidence that vaccinations do not compromise the immune system? Is that what you are saying? For me, a dose of common sense and reason says much. Vaccinate. Confirm sero-conversion (Staranais :cool: ). My plan is to not to vaccinate my boy again but I always follow up that statement with a "unless there is very good reason to suggest that it would be in his favour to do so". I guess that hedges my bets a little, but the point being that I would give a lot of consideration to circumstances before I re-vaccinate, if indeed I did. That is a far cry from the "vaccinate regularly" regime and advocacy. Edited November 2, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Cavalier ..... out of curiousity, what is the dog population density in the area that you work in? I imagine it could only be a guestimate - is there one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 This argument is about the claim everyone is making about the "fact" that vaccines cause every form of cancer imaginable, metabolic disease, endocrine diseases..... there is no evidence - people keep saying there is - if there is evidence please provide us with a link - not a link about Jean Dodds opinion, but a real scientific study that shows a direct link between these diseases and vaccination. This went off track somewhere. Most of us answered the op's question. I gave my reasons for my decision, which I made years ago, based on my own experiences, and a lot of research. If you don't agree, that's your right. I don't actually think that anyone stated that "vaccines cause every form of cancer imginable" etc, you wrote that because you don't agree. That's cool. Although I understand that cats get injection site sarcomas(?) I did the research years ago, and I no longer have links on my computer because I don't need them. And I'm not spending time finding them, because I don't care whether you believe in vaccinosis or not. However, if you are genuinely interested, I have given you the names of the acknowledged world authorities on vaccines. If you want more information, google them and contact them, as I advised earlier I've provided plenty of links over the years as this subject has been thoroughly discussed. I am disinterested in what others do, although I have provided the links so they can do the research, if they want - as you can. I do make recommendations to my puppy buyers because that is within my sphere of interest. Diablo, have no idea, you may have to google too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Been reading through this topic and I am a little confused. Our lab has had c3 at 6 weeks and is of to the vet this week for a c5 at 12 weeks. I have been told that is all he will need for 12 months. They are doing a heart worm and said that will need boosting at 6months. Is this right as I notice people saying I think getting another c5 at 16 weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Been reading through this topic and I am a little confused.Our lab has had c3 at 6 weeks and is of to the vet this week for a c5 at 12 weeks. I have been told that is all he will need for 12 months. They are doing a heart worm and said that will need boosting at 6months. Is this right as I notice people saying I think getting another c5 at 16 weeks Seven - I get a big confused here too. Dr Dodds told me that if the second vaccination is given at >14 weeks, then a third should not be necessary. But I think the timing of the second vaccination depends on when the first one was given and I think that many of the breeders give at 6 weeks stuffs this timing up a little due to vaccination manufacturer's recommendations for repeat vaccinations within a prescribed period. My boy had his second vaccination at 12 weeks and Dr Dodds (yep .... I place a good amount of store in what she says) suggested that he should therefore have a third vaccination at 16 weeks. The only reason I didn't follow through with that was because he wasn't well at the time. So I had him titred to confirm sero-conversion. If the sero-conversion had shown negative, I would have had another shot administered, but it proved unnecessary. I didn't bother with C5 at all. Stuck with C3 which covers the core diseases. C5 only covers two strains of cough and IMO a healthy dog should be able to cope with a dose of cough if he/she is to pick it up. And there's a good chance that if/he she did pick it up, it would be one of the strains that are not covered by a C5 anyway. This is the way I see it. I would not give a heartworm injection. If you are going to use a heartworm preventative, I believe the daily heartworm is the safest, but at second best, the monthly chewables. I also believe that you shouldn't give heartworm AND vaccinate at the same time. Too much pressure on the system, so I understand. Edited November 2, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavalier Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) The immune system must be compromised by the administration of vaccination, otherwise why don't good Vets advocate vaccination even when a pet is sick? Incorrect. The immune system is actually stimulated by the administration of a vaccination - otherwise you would not get any immune response. This is the exact reason many dogs get a lump at the injection site. This lump is not a "reaction" as such, it is the body responding to the modified live virus by sending lots of white blood cells to the area. These white blood cells are the ones that recognise the virus and develop antibodies against it. Why dont we vaccinate dogs when they are sick? Because if the immune system is busy fighting one disease, you are unlikely to get a good immune response from the vaccine if it is administered. Its not so much that it is detrimental to the dog - its just a waste of a vaccine. Cavalier ..... out of curiousity, what is the dog population density in the area that you work in? I imagine it could only be a guestimate - is there one? We have a very transient population so its difficult to say. I have calculated that we vaccinate approximately 10 000 dogs per year. This is enough experience is most peoples books to make a pretty good judgement about vaccine reactions... Edited November 2, 2009 by Cavalier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 This discussion was not about vaccine reactions. The OP asked our views on what and when we as breeders used. We gave those views. I have gone through the Jean Dodd's seminar notes and can find NO reference given by Jean Dodd's to vaccination causing Cancer, Thyroid etc. C3 or C5 ?? I have heard idfferent views, C3 at 6 weeks and 10 weeks and thats it.... C5 at 6, 12 and 16 weeks... What do you go for and why?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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