Dog Attack -> Potential Bsl Convert

[Bluefairy]

I have a 10wk old Pug pup and there is no way in hell she is going out of the house or back yard until she has been fully vaccinated and will never be off leash until she is fully trained and even then you just never know.

I never said I wouldn't be socialising her. I said before they were vaccinated. Of course she will be socialised and experience all sorts of things, from noise, people, cars, trucks, farm animals, etc etc etc I would never dream of shutting any dog away from everything....

BF

Edited April 2, 2010 by Bluefairy

[huski]

I have a 10wk old Pug pup and there is no way in hell she is going out of the house or back yard until she has been fully vaccinated and will never be off leash until she is fully trained and even then you just never know.

I never said I wouldn't be socialising her. I said before they were vaccinated. Of course she will be socialised and experience all sorts of things, from noise, people, cars, trucks, farm animals, etc etc etc I would never dream of shutting any dog away from everything....

BF

The danger BF in waiting until the pup is fully vaccinated is that you have missed their critical socialisation period which is between 8-12 weeks. Have you had a read of this thread? It's useful when it comes to giving you an idea of how your pup will develop and her different learning stages.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=117592

[poodlefan]

PF ~ Living rurally sucks sometimes, the only Puppy school in the area is too far away.

BF

A common problem for those out of town I'm afraid. If you can, take her to town when you go and allow her to greet people and see lots of sights and sounds, even if you have to carry her. It will make more full on experiences easier later on.

I'd be trying for one on ones with Aussies. One new dog at a time might be more manageable.

Edited April 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[stormie]

Lo Pans comments have got me thinking and I am now pondering something. How 'natural' is it for many different packs of dogs to come together and socialise? Does this sort of thing happen amongst wild dog packs? I guess I'm just thinking about the concept of off leash parks. Assuming your family is your dogs' pack, I wonder what sort of thing is going on in the dogs mind when they do visit an off lead park and suddenly dealing with a whole lot of other new 'packs'.

I do off leash parks here and there, but Orbit doesn't really place any value on other dogs and tends to just want to play with me anyway. I didn't actually do the whole puppy school, major socialisation thing during his puppy period. I'm not at all saying people shouldn't socialise - I do think its very important. But I must admit I do like having a dog that would rather socialise with me at the park than other dogs. We also recently had to go to Star City Casino to do a (very embarassing) performance on stage at the Lyric Theatre. He was backstage, dealing with so many people, lights, and then had to go on stage to a whole crowd of cheering people. I wasn't sure how he would react because of the fact I never did the whole 'crowds' thing whilst he was young, but it was just like we were at home - he was completely fine and his focus was just on me. Maybe I'm just lucky with him, I dunno...

[huski]

Lo Pans comments have got me thinking and I am now pondering something. How 'natural' is it for many different packs of dogs to come together and socialise? Does this sort of thing happen amongst wild dog packs? I guess I'm just thinking about the concept of off leash parks. Assuming your family is your dogs' pack, I wonder what sort of thing is going on in the dogs mind when they do visit an off lead park and suddenly dealing with a whole lot of other new 'packs'.

I do off leash parks here and there, but Orbit doesn't really place any value on other dogs and tends to just want to play with me anyway. I didn't actually do the whole puppy school, major socialisation thing during his puppy period. I'm not at all saying people shouldn't socialise - I do think its very important. But I must admit I do like having a dog that would rather socialise with me at the park than other dogs. We also recently had to go to Star City Casino to do a (very embarassing) performance on stage at the Lyric Theatre. He was backstage, dealing with so many people, lights, and then had to go on stage to a whole crowd of cheering people. I wasn't sure how he would react because of the fact I never did the whole 'crowds' thing whilst he was young, but it was just like we were at home - he was completely fine and his focus was just on me. Maybe I'm just lucky with him, I dunno...

Stormie, have you read the old socialisation vs neutralisation thread? I think it's in the training forum. You might find it interesting

[stormie]

Lo Pans comments have got me thinking and I am now pondering something. How 'natural' is it for many different packs of dogs to come together and socialise? Does this sort of thing happen amongst wild dog packs? I guess I'm just thinking about the concept of off leash parks. Assuming your family is your dogs' pack, I wonder what sort of thing is going on in the dogs mind when they do visit an off lead park and suddenly dealing with a whole lot of other new 'packs'.

I do off leash parks here and there, but Orbit doesn't really place any value on other dogs and tends to just want to play with me anyway. I didn't actually do the whole puppy school, major socialisation thing during his puppy period. I'm not at all saying people shouldn't socialise - I do think its very important. But I must admit I do like having a dog that would rather socialise with me at the park than other dogs. We also recently had to go to Star City Casino to do a (very embarassing) performance on stage at the Lyric Theatre. He was backstage, dealing with so many people, lights, and then had to go on stage to a whole crowd of cheering people. I wasn't sure how he would react because of the fact I never did the whole 'crowds' thing whilst he was young, but it was just like we were at home - he was completely fine and his focus was just on me. Maybe I'm just lucky with him, I dunno...

Stormie, have you read the old socialisation vs neutralisation thread? I think it's in the training forum. You might find it interesting ;)

I have!! And I think I may have done that unknowingly!!

[huski]

I have!! And I think I may have done that unknowingly!!

;) :D

I find it very interesting!

Daisy isn't overly fussed with other dogs either so fortunately that means they aren't usually a big distraction when it comes to training. Definitely a plus!

Edited April 2, 2010 by huski

[jules1]

Sorry to go OT

BUT Jules1 that puppy of yours in your sig is just gorgeous ;) :D

I love Dobe puppies!

Thankyou! We think so too - but I guess we are a little bit biased....

Our last dobie girl passed away at the age of 12 a few months ago, but we got her as a semi-mature dog at 11 months old (ex-show dog so was already beautifully trained) so even though we are experienced dobie owners, the whole puppy thing is very new to us and the DOL forums have been very useful with tips. But a lot of it is common sense - eg if he is not recall-trained completely - then he doesn't go off-leash unless we are in a very secure area with no other strange dogs around - I would hate to lose him!

We didn't get our puppy until he was just over 12 weeks old, so the important 8-12 week socialisation period was with the breeder - but he seems to very well-adjusted and loves everybody, just still a bit nervous with other dogs - hopefully puppy school will help fix that.

[OSoSwift]

As the owner of an almost 15 week old male Dobe puppy, I have to agree with the above about recall at this age. He still doesn't go more than a few feet away from us at the moment (we've only had him a bit over 2 weeks though) - but he has absolutely no recall whatsoever which means we cannot and do not take him anywhere offleash. But having only had female dobes before - the part about it taking 18 months for males is daunting!! lol

Yep it is a bit

I have had three Dobes, 1 Dog , 2 bitches.

I personally would never have a nother male Dobe even if I was paid, however with my male it was more due to his temperment and individual personailty which was evident from day dot!

However when I have more training time available a female Dobe would be a definate possibilty.

I do socialise as in get them out and about, and Puppy preschool, however my interaction around aother dogs is mixing with safe dogs and also training and focusing on me near them. At dog training my dogs are not there to play, they are there to work and listen.

I also own a Sttaford who although entire for 8 years was never a problem. The only time he reacted was after a dog annoyed the hell out of him and tried to pick a fight for an hour ( I wasn't there of would have put a stop to it) And also after a dog who my inlaws baby sat, flew him and put multiple tooth holes in him when my MIL was taking the meat froma freshly killed beast into the freezer and dropped a bone on the ground. They couldn't safely be togther after that as the Kelpie would start a fight, but I was well aware my Stafford could finish it.

It is the owner on the end of the lead, I have owned Rotti, Dobes, Staffors and now Whippets. None of my dogs have ever caused a fight, some have defended themselves, but the have NEVER harassed a person, their dog or any other animals because I have trained them and been in control of them. BSL would affect the breeds I love. I have been abused for owning Rotti's and Dobes and have been told my dog should be killed just because she was a Rotti. This was from a woman who's totally out of control Kelpie X was nearly ripping it's head off to get to my Rotti who was in a down stay on a lead and lifted her head to look, then layed flat again.

I have had people tell me all Dobe become vicious eventually - one said it was because their heads were too narrow and they always had headaches because their brains were squashed!

These people believe just because my dogs were the breeds they were they should die - and it IS NOT restricted to Bull breeds, it will spread.

Why should I not be able to own the breeds I love who have never caused a problem because some moron at a park has no idea how to keep a lead on a known aggressive dog?????????

Rant over!

[Erny]

Sorry if I'm reading this wrong but if I take my dog to an offleash park, have it offleash (as it is allowed to be), it's playing nicely, romping in the grass etc. and then is suddenly attacked by another dog then it's my fault??

You should be able to do exactly what you suggest, in an ideal world. But fact is, it's not an ideal world. And to have a young pup where every experience it has in that critical period will be permanent and where vaccinations are incomplete, it's not the best choice of places to take it - the risk is so much higher than an adult dog, not to suggest that there's no risk at all for an adult dog.

There are lots of things we should be able to do in this world. We should be able to walk alone through a darkened abandoned area without sense of danger. But in today's world, we can do that less and less. It would be a silly choice to make especially when there are other choices we can make which will achieve what we need to achieve but in a safer environment.

Is the OP wrong to be at the park? Aside from the potentially higher risk of her pup contracting disease, no. Not "wrong". But was it the wisest choice she could have made? No.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Erny

[Kavik]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The reason I don't take my dogs (and certainly not pups) to crowded dog parks (we go to quieter areas) is because I DID take Zoe, and after the rough and tumble of being in dog parks as a puppy she became dog aggressive as an adolescent and is still dog aggressive at 10 years old. She now no longer gets the privilege of running off leash anywhere . I would not risk that with another one of my dogs, especially when my aim is competition.

[LisaB85]

Ok few things have happened. I know I said I had calmed down last night, but now, I don't actually think I had. The whole experience really did shake me to the core because I honestly thought even if it was only for a few seconds that I was going to watch my puppy be killed.

Went down the road to the shops today as usual, and we were rushed again by several dogs. A mini schnauzer and 2 maltese things were the worst. The woman with the maltese terriers had them on what looked like horse leads and there was almost not enough room on the footpath for my dog to be out of reach of hers. She didn't do anything when her dogs were striking out at mine, growling, barking, struggling etc, so I said, and not in the nicest way, "do you think that given you have no control over your dogs, you should perhaps keep them on a shorter lead?" She just stared at me blankly the whole time. The only thing I remember her saying, was, "oh, one of them likes to bark". This makes no sense to me, so because they like to attack other dogs they're allowed to? There was also an older woman trying to get past at the time, waiting for me to go first. She asked if I could get past, and I said, not at this moment because those 2 dogs were trying to attack mine. This was at Queen St shops btw, heaps of people, now all looking at this woman with her 2 vicious swf dogs. And still she did absolutely nothing. Holding just the end of her lead ropes and not really moving because her dogs were pulling her to the side.

At least the lady with the schnauzer tried to pull him on a short leash and apologized, though she did nothing to correct her dog.

On the plus side, my puppy doesn't panic anymore. He just sticks super close and keeps walking at my side, paying everything else little attention, albeit with his tail tightly between his legs. But I think this may have been because I don't feel scared when I see the malteses or the schnauzers coming for him, because I feel quite confident in my ability to protect him.

The ridiculous part is I actually feel safer when I see a GSD coming towards us than a maltese terrier

I don't want BSL, but owning a young, sensitive breed, I am finding myself increasingly frustrated with people who can not and will not put any effort into controlling their dogs. I realise now that no matter what breed, having a dog that is out of control creates a very difficult and dangerous situation, because as he gets older and bigger, I will have to start worrying about him reciprocating.

Where can I go to walk my dog? There are sooo many dogs in Woollahra, and it is certainly a thin minority that I would want my dog having anything to do with. I can not walk around the block without running into at least 10 other dogs, and about 50% of them will try and charge my dog.

BTW, this is not the first large, dominant breed I have owned. We have had GSD, rotties and a staffy in our family; and I would not want to see any of those breeds in the hands of a bad owner. Also know what parvo is. But I have a puppy now who loves to be patted by strangers, who strange kids can just start patting without great manners, and he not only tolerates it but enjoys it because I have rewarded him for this behaviour. When I first got him, he refused to go outside, to walk, to talk to anyone. I live in a heavily populated area, so to survive, this is how he has to be.

I was not trying to blame the dog yesterday for what happened, I was absolutely furious at the owner, and just wanted to be able to stop her from being able to own anymore dogs that she could screw up, and of course also to enable to hurt other dogs.

[Longcoat]

'LisaB85' date='2nd Apr 2010 - 09:23 AM' post='4433531'

There are a couple of gsds in my area, all very well behaved. There is a rottie who is also well-behaved. I don't know. In my area at least, all the incompetent owners seem to own the small fluffy things, and the bully breeds. Looking out the window this morning, another large staffy looking thing, pulling out in front of its owner on the walk.

The bully breeds and crosses are often considered small-medium sized dogs, and hence owned out of convenience by people who would not want a large dog. But they are not comparable to the other small breeds in terms of power.

You know it's interesting isn't it? All in the same pack, all with the same crap owner, but only one of them attacked my puppy, no questions asked, and that one just happened to be the bully breed.

I totally agree with your observation LisaB85, it's the same here in SA in the areas I exercise my dogs too. Not a day goes by that I don't think when seeing the most poorly behaved dogs on leash which are always SWF types, had those owners had a GSD, Rotty, Dobe etc behaving in the same fashion as their SWF instead............they would have severe drama's on their hands, but the SWF's can be easily dragged along where a powerful dog cannot.

I mentioned in an earlier post as you have also observed that most GSD, Rotty, Dobe type people do appear to have better handling skills with their dogs and encourage good behaviour which from my experience is definitely true, and the medium sized poorly behaved dogs are Bull breeds and often Labrador's and Cattle Dog's, that again I agree. But having said that, it's purely an owner issue not the breed, but does seem to be an emerging patten of breed versus irresponsible ownership which is often seen. The difference being with larger breeds behaving poorly and lunging for the average person is that they are too strong to physically hold onto in a public place and those dogs which also exist are not often seen.

Although as I said, your observations I totally agree are true from my perpsective also, but we can't condemn breeds because of irresponsible ownership which is most unfair. The same people would have the same problems and with larger breeds, they would be more than likely never exercised in public and never seen being unable to handle them at all.

One thing I will say owning and exercising GSD's, it's the BEST medicine for irresponsible ownership with offleash dogs seeing a GSD loom into the picture for these people to quickly gather up their dogs. Not long ago, I heard one of these offleash owners who lack control yell out to another person with them to grab their unleashed dog as an "Alsation" is coming up the path . None the less regardless if they think a GSD is a threat, they did put their dog back on leash which is ultimately a good thing ;)

Edited April 2, 2010 by Longcoat

[poodlefan]

Longcoat:

I mentioned in an earlier post as you have also observed that most GSD, Rotty, Dobe type people do appear to have better handling skills with their dogs

You need to get out more. Irresponsible and incapable owners are attached to the lead of a wide range of breeds, including yours.. and mine.

Edited April 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[Guest Willow]

Good point. When my girls had a fight, I picked up Ebony ('cos she was smaller) and her teeth were still embedded in Ella's face - there was no way she was letting go willingly. Even picking up the attacking dog can't make them let go if they're really determined.

Reminds me of the time a little JRT had a go at Jarrah (Staffy)...I had it in the air by it's back legs & it still wouldn't let go of my boys face!!!

I had my T bone at the beach last week. Off leash beach, plenty of space and a few dogs walking up and down with their owners. T bone was retrieving a stick into the waves. Having a wonderful time, we were minding our own business. Two dogs were walking along with their owner both boxer/ridgie/mastiff type crosses. Both left their owner and pursued T bone into the water who was returning with a stick. One grabbed the stick out of his mouth which he surrendered without protest (he is a gentleman) and then the other attacked him. WTF is with that? Goddamn bullies! The attacking dog backed off when I approached them with my arm over my head yelling at it to bugger off. He came away with a puncture wound in his head which I didn't find until we got home but I sure as hell would have had a piece of the owner had I found it at the time.

Crikey.....that's just what you need when encumbered by a baby belly ;) I must admit, that's always at the back of my mind when i take my two out on my own....it's physically more difficult to break anyhting up right now!

[Longcoat]

Longcoat:

I mentioned in an earlier post as you have also observed that most GSD, Rotty, Dobe type people do appear to have better handling skills with their dogs

You need to get out more. Irresponsible and incapable owners are attached to the lead of a wide range of breeds, including yours.. and mine.

Yes that's true, but are not seen anywhere near as often as some of the other breeds for the general public to form opinions.

[poodlefan]

Longcoat:

I mentioned in an earlier post as you have also observed that most GSD, Rotty, Dobe type people do appear to have better handling skills with their dogs

You need to get out more. Irresponsible and incapable owners are attached to the lead of a wide range of breeds, including yours.. and mine.

Yes that's true, but are not seen anywhere near as often as some of the other breeds for the general public to form opinions.

Staffords and their crosses and SWFS.. these are the most popular breeds and mixes in the country. Stands to reason you'll see more idiot owners because there's more of these dogs.

If there's less of any other breed, then naturally there will be fewer idiots owning them.

[ILK]

I undersand your anger LisaB85. Irresponsible dog owners really get under my skin. You are well within your rights to be angry and shaken up. It will be an unforgettable experience.

There are many many irresponsible owners out there. I am one for preaching the rules on off leash dog parks, but it seems that only a select few people have consideration for others and actually follow the rules of the park.

Any breed is scary in the hands of a bad owner and any breed is divine in the hands of a good owner.

[Adnil444]

BUT IS YOUR DOG VACCINATED FULLY AT 11 WEEKS ??

You avoid the emails ??

What has that to do with the topic? It's about her pup being attacked, not vaccination. Why are you hassling the OP with emails?

Thank you!

Please, if you want to talk about vaccination, start another thread. I love my dog very very much. My boyfriend is still yelling at me for grabbing him when the dog was trying to attack him, because he thought I could be attacked, but I just didn't even give it any thought at the time. I don't consider myself ignorant of the risks, but there are more risks than things like parvo when you own a breed like a doberman, and the vet and breeder have told me it is more risky to keep him inside until after he is 4 months old, which would be when his vaccinations would be complete. My vet told me in his 30 years, he has heard of one case of parvo in the eastern suburbs and in that case, the dog had been in Blacktown the day before. He said the risk was extremely low to nil. On the other hand, he told me he might get Kennel Cough, but that the effects of that would not compare to the effects of keeping him isolated at this crucial period in his development. All about minimizing risk I guess, and I think you would have to agree that reasonable minds could reach different conclusions on the matter. But please don't mention it anymore in this particular thread, it is OT.

I was nowhere near a road, I was nowhere near anything but a pond and grass. Like I've already said, my puppy was on my feet at the time, which is where he sits whether he's on the lead or not. I believe I have good recall with him, given that even when people offer him food at their picnics (because he is the cutest damn pup you've ever seen) he will not go further than about 2m away from me, and I have to approach other people first before he will. When he is scared, he tries to climb up me. I don't know, you guys may have a very valid point about how I should have him on the lead at all times, but, it's still not relevant to this particular incident, because the issue was not that he was too far away for me to help, it was that the dog that was aggressive was not controlled.

You guys can spend all day trying to determine my agenda if you don't want to take me on face value. I do not post often on these forums because I have seen what can happen to people. The whole point of my post was to firstly vent off some of the lasting anxiety I had from the attack, but then also, on reflection, I felt like after all these years, I could potentially understand why some people actually wanted BSL, and why people will make the distinction between different breeds.

I do think an owner would have trouble getting a large breed off another dog, but, I do think the dog itself would have better luck with a huge, slow newf over a pittbull. I was thinking about it more today, and thinking about all the dogs who have tried to attack my puppy so far. There were a few small things, which we all just ignored, there was the labrador yesterday at lunch which wouldn't stop barking at him but who knows how far it would have taken it, and then about a week ago, there were 2 large staffy type dogs. They were on a lead, but pulling out in front, lunging at my dog. I say large because I thought staffies were only meant to be about 20kg, and these ones were definitely larger than that. There are a couple of gsds in my area, all very well behaved. There is a rottie who is also well-behaved. I don't know. In my area at least, all the incompetent owners seem to own the small fluffy things, and the bully breeds. Looking out the window this morning, another large staffy looking thing, pulling out in front of its owner on the walk.

The bully breeds and crosses are often considered small-medium sized dogs, and hence owned out of convenience by people who would not want a large dog. But they are not comparable to the other small breeds in terms of power.

I am going to try and report the lady today, I remember some of the members of her pack, the male steel grey bully thing at the front, a border collie cross, a brindle large female something, a small tan and white maltese looking thing and a few other small-med sized things. You know it's interesting isn't it? All in the same pack, all with the same crap owner, but only one of them attacked my puppy, no questions asked, and that one just happened to be the bully breed.

Hi, our vet (and others) have said similar things - also Sydney top Dog Behaviourist - Kersti Seksel - it is better to get your puppy out and socialising, than worrying about the very very small risk of picking up a disease. But then again I suppose it would depend on what areas of Sydney you live in - we grew up in Mosman and the chances of coming across a dog that wasn't vaccinated, that also had to be carrying the disease, is so remote - we always took our great danes out to socialise before the completed vaccination time - the critical time for socialisation is between 8-16 weeks - we were advised by the vets to not let them smell/come into contact with other dogs poo - and we always did that and our dogs were the totally dog friendly, people friendly etc.

I would suggest to still take your pup out - getting him socialised with other dogs, people, noises, traffic, shopping centres, etc is vitally important. One of the best ways of socialising, is to take them to your kids sports games - mine go every week to my son's cricket games and rugby union games - lots of people, noise, toddlers, other dogs, screams and shouting etc. They love going.

[stormie]

Just to clarify - no ones saying don't take puppies out, more so that they should be kept out of dog parks and mostly carried around. I wouldn't say 'very very low risk' either. I think the reason we're not seeing parvo in those areas is because most dogs ARE vaccinated. It's not to say that the disease isn't out there. In fact I think people around this area have had titres come back with high parvo antibody levels, implying the dog has come into contact with the disease. So it is out there, its just that most dogs are vacc'd and most people with puppies follow the advice of keeping pups out of high risk areas until after their 12wk shot.