Luring Vs 'guide, Show, Place'

[poodlefan]

this is my dog. she so wants to please she tries everything. i stopped using this method because she grew less confident when i was using it.

she needs to know what i expect otherwise she stresses.

and so many people are surprised because she is a very calm dog for her breed

So for your dog, perhaps guide and place training might be more successful and less stressful?

I'm not a big fan of "hands on" training but once again, you've gotta use what works for that dog.

[Aidan3]

I've seen very stressed dogs trained using free shaping. Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is one side effect of this method used badly.

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

this is my dog. she so wants to please she tries everything. i stopped using this method because she grew less confident when i was using it.

she needs to know what i expect otherwise she stresses.

and so many people are surprised because she is a very calm dog for her breed

So for your dog, perhaps guide and place training might be more successful and less stressful?

I'm not a big fan of "hands on" training but once again, you've gotta use what works for that dog.

i have managed quite well by teaching her by luring under little distraction then increasing the distraction then using the guide and place when she gets too stressed with distractions and between them both she is reliable and happy and none of us are stressed.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I've seen very stressed dogs trained using free shaping. Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is one side effect of this method used badly.

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress.

true but it can be stress as well

[Aidan3]

what i try to do is get my dog to behave as i need her to making sure there is as little frustration on both our parts as possible.

i also need this behaviour to be reliable so i try to make it as solid as possible.

I was talking specifically about teaching targeting so I'm a little confused about your reply? Are you concerned that using a target might cause frustration or result in unreliable responses? A target is usually only used early on so it won't bring reliability (only reinforcement of the end result will do that), and in my experience a target is possibly the least frustrating way to teach a new behaviour possible - no guesswork, no force, clear and direct communication, and no focus on the food.

[Meea]

I've seen very stressed dogs trained using free shaping. Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is one side effect of this method used badly.

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress.

I agree - my cattle dog distance works me especially when I am training a new dog (the cheek of me!) as I work through exercises with the new dog/pup - Jordan is doing everything perfectly. Not stressings so much as gratuitious attention seeking! He was staked at an OT a few weeks ago and would have got a good pass if he had been in the ring with me.

[Aidan3]

I've seen very stressed dogs trained using free shaping. Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is one side effect of this method used badly.

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress.

true but it can be stress as well

So long as we're clear that not all frantic offering of behaviour is a sign of stress. I wouldn't want anyone thinking they were stressing their dog out just because they weren't the best free-shaper in the world, or that a little of this isn't completely normal.

[Erny]

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress.

When your dog "franticly" (or not) offers behaviours, it would be because the dog has learnt that ONE behaviour just might get the reward. Correct?

So, with the dog expecting and knowing the reward is on offer, and we don't give it (because the dog hasn't offered the behaviour we, in our minds, want), would you regard that as negative punishment?

[Cosmolo]

I think we should define G/S/P too- a very well known positive trainer was heard to remark recently that if the dog is struggling with a lure method, a 'little tickle on the shoulder blades' can be helpful. Is that G/ S/ P?

I just don't understand why placing a dog into a position is such a bad thing. We're not talking about pinning a dog to the ground- at least i am not! I always provide a huge reward for the dog so its not G/S/P instead of food rewards etc.

Corvus the reason why i find dogs that have 2 methods used can be more reliable is because there are fewer cues that occur every time- when i use a lure and G/S/P combo the dog is not reliant on my lure nor are they reliant on the hand placement/ hands on. I want the dog to respond to the verbal command only rather than other body language etc. (Its not because the first method didn't work at all and in most cases i do these things simultaneously, mini session 1 with lure, mini session 2 with G/S/P, mini session 3 a bit of both- this might be in 1-3 days. It teaches the dog that no matter which way you get there, respond with this position to this verbal command.) JMO

[Aidan3]

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress.

When your dog "franticly" (or not) offers behaviours, it would be because the dog has learnt that ONE behaviour just might get the reward. Correct?

So, with the dog expecting and knowing the reward is on offer, and we don't give it (because the dog hasn't offered the behaviour we, in our minds, want), would you regard that as negative punishment?

No, by definition and by function it would be an extinction procedure and not negative punishment.

[poodlefan]

I've seen very stressed dogs trained using free shaping. Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is one side effect of this method used badly.

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress.

Not necessarily.. but rapid and frantic are different and if a dog's body language says "stressed", its different to "focussed and eager".

[Aidan3]

Corvus the reason why i find dogs that have 2 methods used can be more reliable is because there are fewer cues that occur every time- when i use a lure and G/S/P combo the dog is not reliant on my lure nor are they reliant on the hand placement/ hands on.

Good point.

[Aidan3]

I've seen very stressed dogs trained using free shaping. Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is one side effect of this method used badly.

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress.

Not necessarily.. but rapid and frantic are different and if a dog's body language says "stressed", its different to "focussed and eager".

That's what I'd hoped you would say

I don't draw too many conclusions about stress, obviously too much is a bad thing (and that is relative), but it might be an indicator about what the trainer is doing and how learning could be improved.

[poodlefan]

I've seen very stressed dogs trained using free shaping. Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is one side effect of this method used badly.

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress.

Not necessarily.. but rapid and frantic are different and if a dog's body language says "stressed", its different to "focussed and eager".

That's what I'd hoped you would say

I don't draw too many conclusions about stress, obviously too much is a bad thing (and that is relative), but it might be an indicator about what the trainer is doing and how learning could be improved.

Where's my reward for offering the desired response?

[OSoSwift]

Not in particular Erny - I guess I am just a bit sensitive due to seeing a few comments of late regarding positive training.

I don't often get riled up, but every now and agian my hackles raise a little bit.

I am of the opinion that you can never stop learning and the day you say your method is the only one and everything else is second best is the day you need a kick up the bum. You can never know everything, and can always learn something, even if it is not what to do.

For Whippets, I've not seen a better way to train R&L. They need a pay off. Jerk them around or rouse on them and they sulk and shut down.

Personally I think the rising popularity of positive training is a direct reason for the increase in the variety of breeds doing well in obedience/agility.

Yes I agree, there is no way mine would work they way they do if I didn't train them using positive methods. And I also agree with the increase in the variety of breeds doing so well is because of these methods.

[OSoSwift]

Not in particular Erny - I guess I am just a bit sensitive due to seeing a few comments of late regarding positive training.

I don't often get riled up, but every now and agian my hackles raise a little bit.

I am of the opinion that you can never stop learning and the day you say your method is the only one and everything else is second best is the day you need a kick up the bum. You can never know everything, and can always learn something, even if it is not what to do.

That's ok then, so long as you realise that I do not and was not denigrating any one's method. I actually concur with you.

I think perhaps in part that negative comments to "positive training" methods aren't really negative to the method itself, but is negative to the people/groups who have pushed it to the point of ad-nausium and who have also, over the years, tried (and in some ways, for some time, succeeded) in making out any one else who believed differently, to be cruel, harsh etc.

So please don't take it to heart and be assured that I was not running down positive training. I love positive training .

Oh I agree, fanatical people in any area are a little wearing!

I haven't taken it to heart It takes a bit to get me het up, but goes away quickly

I don't understand why some people are so one eyed they will not even attempt to understand the other side - although I am guilty of sometimes playing Devils advocate.

[corvus]

I think we should define G/S/P too- a very well known positive trainer was heard to remark recently that if the dog is struggling with a lure method, a 'little tickle on the shoulder blades' can be helpful. Is that G/ S/ P?

I don't think so. I thought we were talking about physically placing the dog in the position we want. In SATS training you use targeting to place the dog in the exact position you want. It's extremely precise, but I wouldn't call it GSP. It's bridge and target.

I just don't understand why placing a dog into a position is such a bad thing. We're not talking about pinning a dog to the ground- at least i am not! I always provide a huge reward for the dog so its not G/S/P instead of food rewards etc.

I don't think it's bad. I am just surprised it is still used. It's pretty low on the list of things I would try because I like it when the dogs can think something through. Plus I've had people try to teach me things that way before and found it annoying, frustrating, and difficult to grasp what I was meant to do. Even when I was told I was right I didn't quite believe it and wasn't sure what part of the position was important and what wasn't. Plus I try to resist the temptation to use my hands on my dogs when I want them to do something because I find it to be a pitfall for me and I think it unbalances them and takes control away from them, which isn't very fun. And if you use that method exclusively it tends to result in a tactile cue that is really difficult to wean them off.

I do have a dog that is stressed by free shaping and isn't very creative or confident in training and that's why I switched to targeting. He thinks it's the best fun and gets very excited about it. It's adorable. I confess I tried GSP with him ever so briefly. I thought seeing as he was so tactile he might like it. He didn't.

Corvus the reason why i find dogs that have 2 methods used can be more reliable is because there are fewer cues that occur every time- when i use a lure and G/S/P combo the dog is not reliant on my lure nor are they reliant on the hand placement/ hands on.

Then aren't you essentially teaching them more cues than they need and then letting several disappear by way of extinction? Why not just teach them the one they need to begin with? If I'm luring I try to pick a cue that will look like the lure and morph it real fast. Food comes out of the hand as soon as we can get, like, 3 correct reps in a row.

Incidentally, Erik is a crazy cue discriminating nut and learns one cue in such minute detail that repeating the cue to his criteria is a hit and miss affair. That's what you get when you have a dog that learns from one mark and reward, apparently. If I hold off putting a cue to it until he's really good at the new behaviour then he is better able to learn the general cue with all its minute variations because it's more like a generalising exercise than reteaching the behaviour for a dozen natural variations to the cue.

[Aidan3]

That's what I'd hoped you would say ;)

I don't draw too many conclusions about stress, obviously too much is a bad thing (and that is relative), but it might be an indicator about what the trainer is doing and how learning could be improved.

Where's my reward for offering the desired response?

I gave you a smiley, they don't give me much to work with here... have a - it's better than a apparently.

[poodlefan]

That's what I'd hoped you would say

I don't draw too many conclusions about stress, obviously too much is a bad thing (and that is relative), but it might be an indicator about what the trainer is doing and how learning could be improved.

Where's my reward for offering the desired response?

I gave you a smiley, they don't give me much to work with here... have a ;) - it's better than a apparently.

A block of Cadbury Turkish Delight chocolate would have been better but you can only work with what Troy gives you.

[Erny]

No, by definition and by function it would be an extinction procedure and not negative punishment.

I thought you would say that .

So that I can be clear with what your word definitions are, would you mind giving me two simple examples of what you would define as Negative Punishment?

Did someone say "turkish delight"? yummmm

Edited May 24, 2010 by Erny