Removal Of Titles Gained

[Yesmaam]

The lady who instructs me in herding found this today whilst searching for something else and thought she would share it with me….

This Act (see link below) states a dangerous dog is NOT exempt under clause 4 UNLESS

a) it is a Schutzhund Trained GSD (funny how its only a GSD!!),

b) a Dogs Victoria Member

c) if it has been imported into the country for breeding purposes!

This is dated 31st March 2009

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/DPI/nrenfa.nsf/L...ined%20Dogs.pdf

Yes this is old news. The GSDCA sought their own selfish exemption to parts of the victorian DD act.

[Tapferhund]

edited

Edited August 24, 2010 by Tapferhund

[MonElite]

Tapf and Echo - so have any GSD clubs engaged in a protest against this possible new rule for the pedigrees?

[Tarmons]

Tapf and Echo - so have any GSD clubs engaged in a protest against this possible new rule for the pedigrees?

Unlike many other Breed Clubs we have a National Council, the German Shepherd Council of Australia which speaks and acts on behalf of all its State Affiliates. The GSDCA has and is dealing with the matter in hand. The GSDCA is not known for blowing its trumpet or having bands precede any action it does. It is a quiet achiever even though its members may be very vocal.

At least the GSDCA has taken positive steps to address this issue re the removal of SchH /IPO titles from Imports from the moment it was notified. There has been a screaming silence from some of the other breeds affected by the removal of SchH/IPO titles from the pedigrees of their Imports. Perhaps in their case such overseas titles were not key factors in proving breed worthiness.

[SharpShep]

'Nekhbet' date='24th Aug 2010 - 03:59 PM' post='4762271'

Can the GSD Club assist me with Schutzhund or Protection training for my puppy/dog ?

No ! - The GSDCA affiliated Clubs do not support the training of Schutzhund, or any form of Protection training and do not believe this form of training is necessary.

What I would like to know, is how the GSDCA can determine that Schutzhund training isn't necessary when the SV uses Schutzhund training as quality control test to maintain breed integrity and doesn't recognise untitled GSD's for showing or breeding???. Wouldn't the SV who is the GSD world foundary registery who dictates the breed policy to the FCI have dropped Schutzhund training also if what the GSDCA is saying is in the best interests of the breed???.

Even the SV breed survey has a character assessment (bitework) to prove that a titled dog is actually up to the required standard...........but in their wisdom and what wisdom I ask compared with the experience collected by the SV, can a local body (GSDCA) make such a stance and claim that without Schutzhund training and testing they can still magically determine the quality and traits of an authentic GSD when the world controlling body who have administered the GSD breeding requirements from day one, say that breed integrity cannot be maintained without Schutzhund testing???. What does the GSDCA know about the breed that the SV doesn't know, which is the part from my perspective that doesn't make sense???. Our GSD's don't even qualify to enter an SV event untitled and without passing an SV breed survey to compare them in showing to rate our productions at world level to guage where we are at???.

I don't understand how the GSDCA can hold their heads up in pride as they do maintaining they are all for the breed's future when they leave half the quality control tests out of the equation which the SV claim is essential and mandatory to maintain correctness of traits???.

[SharpShep]

Tapf and Echo - so have any GSD clubs engaged in a protest against this possible new rule for the pedigrees?

Unlike many other Breed Clubs we have a National Council, the German Shepherd Council of Australia which speaks and acts on behalf of all its State Affiliates. The GSDCA has and is dealing with the matter in hand. The GSDCA is not known for blowing its trumpet or having bands precede any action it does. It is a quiet achiever even though its members may be very vocal.

At least the GSDCA has taken positive steps to address this issue re the removal of SchH /IPO titles from Imports from the moment it was notified. There has been a screaming silence from some of the other breeds affected by the removal of SchH/IPO titles from the pedigrees of their Imports. Perhaps in their case such overseas titles were not key factors in proving breed worthiness.

Schutzhund testing was designed as a breed integrity test specifically for the GSD as far as I am aware. I didn't think other breeds actually adopted Schutzhund testing as a breeding requirement and which I guess doesn't provide the necessity in maintaining title recognition in other breeds as it does with the GSD???. Does anyone for interest know if other breeds use the Schutzhund test as a mandatory testing factor for breed integrity other than the GSD???

[TrinaJ]

We too have a National Council (National Rottweiler Council of Australia) that acts on behalf of the State CLubs, however they cannot do anything without the majority of the clubs agreeing

[Tapferhund]

Sharp Shep, Schutzhund is a requirement for all other working breeds in Europe....not just German Shepherds .

As to the other questions in your posts.........you aren't telling us anything new or that we don't already know. The subject has been done to death on this and other forums (do a search) but here in Australia attitudes will never change...so the situation in regard to schutzhund will never change. (unfortunately)

[Tapferhund]

Well have they (Rottie Nat Council) been in touch with your various clubs throughout the country? ...and if so....what are they doing?

[MonElite]

We too have a National Council (National Rottweiler Council of Australia) that acts on behalf of the State CLubs, however they cannot do anything without the majority of the clubs agreeing

Ditto for Dobes.

With NSW club metings every two months (next one in Oct in NSW) there is no time for the Dobe clubs and then the national body to act before the October ANKC conference.

At least the GSDCA has taken positive steps to address this issue re the removal of SchH /IPO titles from Imports from the moment it was notified.

What are the steps?

Only from Imports? what about from Aus pedigrees that have imported dogs in them?

The GSDCA is not known for blowing its trumpet or having bands precede any action it does.

Sure !!! That is why it got excptions from the dangerous dogs act in Vic only for their own breed, right?

[Tapferhund]

Only from Imports? what about from Aus pedigrees that have imported dogs in them?

No not just from imports but from all pedigrees containing German lineage Monelite.

That is why it got excptions from the dangerous dogs act in Vic only for their own breed, right?

Well I don't agree with or condone with whatever happened...... but would the Dobermann club look after and seek exemptions for German Shepherds , Rottweilers or Belgian Mals??? No they wouldn't would they !! Why would they when their main responsibility as a restricted to BREED club is to look after Dobermanns and Dobermann owners.

So why would it or should it be any different for the German Shepherd Club ???

Like I said I don't agree with whatever did(?) happen.......but if something did go on.....WHERE were the Dobermann club, the Rottie club and other clubs including Schutzhund clubs containing those breeds , at the time? Surely your clubs can speak up for themselves.......or did they all HOPE that whatever the GSDClubs were doing to protect GSDs .........would automatically fan out to cover all Schutzhund breeds?

[SharpShep]

Sharp Shep, Schutzhund is a requirement for all other working breeds in Europe....not just German Shepherds .

As to the other questions in your posts.........you aren't telling us anything new or that we don't already know. The subject has been done to death on this and other forums (do a search) but here in Australia attitudes will never change...so the situation in regard to schutzhund will never change. (unfortunately)

In Europe, all other working breeds must have Schutzhund titles to be shown, bred and for their pedigrees to be officially registered the same as the GSD........is that correct Tapferhund???. What are the breeds essentially, Dobes, Rotties, Belgian Shepherds etc.............I thought that some of these primarily had KNPV titles as their recognised working platform but I may be wrong on that aspect???.

I am not actually telling anyone anything, I am asking how the GSDCA can determine breed quality without Schutzhund testing..........can anyone answer my question or do we just accept the fact that the GSDCA are not interested at aiming their breeding structure to comply with world standards???.

If the GSDCA are happy to maintain low level reproductions and promote a system that allows dogs that don't have the required traits to pass through their quality control net and be reproduced is their call which I don't have a problem with, but restricting people who do have higher aims to maintain and improve the traits of an authentic GSD which we all benefit from in the long run, is a very narrow minded approach IMHO

The GSDCA are in the best position having the FCI and SV behind them to slap the breeding requirements on the ANKC's table and say "hey"!!!, these are the SV requirements and testing regimes for the maintanence of our breed's integrity approved and recognised by the FCI..........that's how it has to be done and Schutzhund is part of that requirement for people and groups who wish to follow that route???.

So what is stopping the GSDCA from doing that I ask???.

[Tarmons]

QUOTE

The GSDCA is not known for blowing its trumpet or having bands precede any action it does.

Sure !!! That is why it got excptions from the dangerous dogs act in Vic only for their own breed, right?

That's old ground..... been there and done that with that particular issue but the fact that the GSDCV did this proves that there were no blast of trumpets or hoop la bands...just decisive action on their part.

WHERE were the Dobermann club, the Rottie club and other clubs including Schutzhund clubs containing those breeds , at the time? Surely your clubs can speak up for themselves.......or did they all HOPE that whatever the GSDClubs were doing to protect GSDs .........would automatically fan out to cover all Schutzhund breeds?

Would the other breed clubs if they had adopted the same tactic in seeking the exemption from desexing and the wearing of muzzles and fluoro collars at VCA sanctioned events, made sure that it was inclusive to all breeds involved with SchH /IPO? Doubt it.

I don't approve of what occurred last year either but it's water under the bridge and the GSDCV cannot be held accountable for the inaction of the other Breed Clubs.

The fact that you may not be aware of what your Breed Club is doing with regard to the removal of all SchH /IPO titles from registered Pedigrees is a communication problem within your own Breed Club and not the GSDCA.

[SharpShep]

QUOTE

The GSDCA is not known for blowing its trumpet or having bands precede any action it does.

Sure !!! That is why it got excptions from the dangerous dogs act in Vic only for their own breed, right?

That's old ground..... been there and done that with that particular issue but the fact that the GSDCV did this proves that there were no blast of trumpets or hoop la bands...just decisive action on their part.

WHERE were the Dobermann club, the Rottie club and other clubs including Schutzhund clubs containing those breeds , at the time? Surely your clubs can speak up for themselves.......or did they all HOPE that whatever the GSDClubs were doing to protect GSDs .........would automatically fan out to cover all Schutzhund breeds?

Would the other breed clubs if they had adopted the same tactic in seeking the exemption from desexing and the wearing of muzzles and fluoro collars at VCA sanctioned events, made sure that it was inclusive to all breeds involved with SchH /IPO? Doubt it.

I don't approve of what occurred last year either but it's water under the bridge and the GSDCV cannot be held accountable for the inaction of the other Breed Clubs.

The fact that you may not be aware of what your Breed Club is doing with regard to the removal of all SchH /IPO titles from registered Pedigrees is a communication problem within your own Breed Club and not the GSDCA.

Why didn't the GSDCA intervene with the Victorian dangerous dog laws in regard to Schutzhund titles dogs given that they have the majority membership base who own titled dogs to prove they are not dangerous. The GSDCA was in the box seat to argue against the legislation and make a stand that a titled dog is no community threat???. All they did was work at providing an exemption for titled dogs to be shown without a muzzle and collar requirements in the show ring. In effect, they agreed with the government stance that titled dogs are dangerous which they know damn well is a blatent unthruth.

[Tapferhund]

"All they did was work at providing an exemption for titled dogs to be shown without a muzzle and collar requirements in the show ring."

DUHhhh.....that's because that's where their interests lie!

Sharp Shep.....we ALL have been down this path umpteen times before on DOL.......its all old ground hashed and rehashed over and over and over again. I suggest you do a search of the archives and enjoy yourself reading it all. (Quite a few threads on the subject)

[Erny]

"All they did was work at providing an exemption for titled dogs to be shown without a muzzle and collar requirements in the show ring."

DUHhhh.....that's because that's where their interests lie!

Sharp Shep.....we ALL have been down this path umpteen times before on DOL.......its all old ground hashed and rehashed over and over and over again. I suggest you do a search of the archives and enjoy yourself reading it all. (Quite a few threads on the subject)

.... Are all the GSDCA interested in is showing titled GSD's that are only non-dangerous (ie deemed non-dangerous given that they are at other times deemed dangerous) in the show ring, and are happy for the titled of their breed to portray to the community they are dangerous dogs? Or is it not intended for these titled dogs to be out in public unless they are at an official sanctioned event?

I agree that these discussions have gone down this path many times before and they probably will continue to do so until some common sense, logical and straight up answers can be given to the many questions that still float.

Regards the removal of Working Title from pedigrees' history - I think that is very wrong too and I agree with you Tapferhund that letters/objections etc. should be submitted to ANKC alerting it to just how many people are against this move. But I don't think what has gone down in the past regards the move away/against Schutzhund and then the feint in favour of Schutzhund (only for 'special interest' purposes by a select group) should go unaddressed, no matter how much it has been discussed or hashed over in the past.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Erny

[SharpShep]

"All they did was work at providing an exemption for titled dogs to be shown without a muzzle and collar requirements in the show ring."

DUHhhh.....that's because that's where their interests lie!

Sharp Shep.....we ALL have been down this path umpteen times before on DOL.......its all old ground hashed and rehashed over and over and over again. I suggest you do a search of the archives and enjoy yourself reading it all. (Quite a few threads on the subject)

That's fine for their interests to be showing the GSD, but first they need to prove what they are showing is a GSD of authentic traits, not a dog that only looks like a GSD. They have an obligation to the breed taking on the role that GSDCA does to promote and ensure the correct breeding practices to result in the most authentic dogs they can produce in their entirety, not just one part of the breed which I might add being a show dog isn't a requirement of the breed standards. Protection is part of the breed standards for the GSD, so how does the GSDCA ensure that the dogs they rubber stamp are capable of that???.

[Tapferhund]

Hi Erny,

All I can say to you and SharpShep is many , over decades, have been speaking up for/fighting for Schutzhund and the GSD and the closest we ever came to recognition and acceptance by the clubs and the ANKC was back in the early 1990's.......but it all fell through. Now the DPI is involved (Vic) we can kiss the sport goodbye for ever as Govt's NEVER see reason, nor do they listen to us (as you yourself found out over the PC issue ) who they see as plebs and they DEFINITELY do not overturn the idiotic decisions they make on behalf of US.

We all know we all should be doing Schutzhund for ALL the reasons mentioned in this thread and others.........but it's not going to happen......at least here in Victoria anyway .

SharpShep, if you want answers to your questions, the best place for answers is the GSDCA. You will find contact details on their website.

[wednesday]

QUOTE

The GSDCA is not known for blowing its trumpet or having bands precede any action it does.

Sure !!! That is why it got excptions from the dangerous dogs act in Vic only for their own breed, right?

That's old ground..... been there and done that with that particular issue but the fact that the GSDCV did this proves that there were no blast of trumpets or hoop la bands...just decisive action on their part.

WHERE were the Dobermann club, the Rottie club and other clubs including Schutzhund clubs containing those breeds , at the time? Surely your clubs can speak up for themselves.......or did they all HOPE that whatever the GSDClubs were doing to protect GSDs .........would automatically fan out to cover all Schutzhund breeds?

Would the other breed clubs if they had adopted the same tactic in seeking the exemption from desexing and the wearing of muzzles and fluoro collars at VCA sanctioned events, made sure that it was inclusive to all breeds involved with SchH /IPO? Doubt it.

I don't approve of what occurred last year either but it's water under the bridge and the GSDCV cannot be held accountable for the inaction of the other Breed Clubs.

The fact that you may not be aware of what your Breed Club is doing with regard to the removal of all SchH /IPO titles from registered Pedigrees is a communication problem within your own Breed Club and not the GSDCA.

The Rotti clubs were not aware of any of this as far as I know. The first the Rotti clubs were aware of any of this was the decision to remove the titles, and the first thing that people suggested was contacting the other BREEDS involved to also join in to a united front by all the breeds affected. Which is what I would hope the GSD people would have done, which they obviously didn't. This may have well been because they didn't KNOW that other breeds were affected, but now that they do, I would hope that Dobes, Rotti's, Belgian clubs etc, would have their support.

Personally I think this is altering the registered pedigrees of imported dogs, and if this is the case, then what is to stop the ANKC to stop recognising ALL overseas titles, including championship titles of other countries, international champ titles etc. If a title is part of the registration of the dog in the country the dog is being imported from, then it should be included in the registration in Australia - unless the ANKC doesn't want to recognise any overseas titles, and move to the same system as in the US for example - where as people mentioned - they don't recognise any titles because they are not members of the FCI.

Edited to add: I wonder when everyone will stop bickering amongst themselves when at the end of the day they all have the same purpose. What is done, is done, and lets just move on to see how we can all come together to rectify this.

Edited August 25, 2010 by wednesday

[Tapferhund]

I wonder when everyone will stop bickering amongst themselves when at the end of the day they all have the same purpose. What is done, is done, and lets just move on to see how we can all come together to rectify this.

Couldn't agree more wednesday !