Buyer Beware

[ollie waffle]

But you see under the law, the ANKC and its state controlling bodies have no power. They are ONLY registering bodies. They have no power to do anything except maintain registers of purebred dogs and create and administer rules for dog shows.

SO who has the control to do something to stop these people from breeding????????????????? Again, dog shows !!!!! What about the health and welfare of these animals?? what about breeding to improve the breed? Where are the priorities....... must be with the dogs that look good and can produce more good looking dogs hey.

[ellz]

SO who has the control to do something to stop these people from breeding????????????????? Again, dog shows !!!!! What about the health and welfare of these animals?? what about breeding to improve the breed? Where are the priorities....... must be with the dogs that look good and can produce more good looking dogs hey.

Dog shows are not law, they are a hobby. A very expensive, at times heartbreaking, largely self-regulated hobby.

And no, not every breeder has dog showing as a priority. For myself, I accept that the majority of the dogs that I breed will end up in companion homes. I breed first and foremost for health and temperament and if a dog happens to turn out as what *I* believe is show quality, then that is a bonus.

Who has the control to stop unethical people from breeding? Themselves and the law. And in the case of the breeder you have mentioned, they have not done anything OUTSIDE the law. Simple as that. They bred a problem, you let them know, they offered to take the puppy back and refund your money, you refused. Your decision, now you must live with it.

From the prospective of the breeder, the problem you had may be something that has never arisen before or it may be something that occurs as a result of a recessive gene. If that is the case, then only breeding carrier or affected to each other can produce it. How do you know that the owner and/or breeder of both parents have not taken that on board and will not breed those two dogs together again? You stated that sire and dam and all litter mates need to be desexed....are you a geneticist or do you just happen to have a crystal ball??

And as for the owner of the sire stating she never wanted to hear from you again...have you considered that it may be nothing to do with the actual problem, but just may be your approach? Because from the "vibes" that I'm getting from your posts here, you may have a lot to learn about public relations and the good old-fashioned saying "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar".

[yarracully]

Thank you all for your replies.

All were interesting to read.

My aim was to see what advice people would offer prior to a sale.

I have a lab. I purchased him as a gift for my 10yr old daughter who has wanted a lab puppy for 2 years. I bought him from a registered breeder. At 4 months he was diagnosed with short ulna and radius curvus syndrome caused from a form of OCD.

He is also a dwarf dog.

The breeder offered to refund my money if i returned our pup. NO way was this an option. This pup was part of our family. What was the breeder planning to do? Have it put down? wasnt it better this pup stayed with a loving family???

We have spent $11K to fix some health problems related to these genetic issues.

Both owners of the Sire & Dam do not want to know about the issues. Ive been in contacted with relevant dog council however they say they have no authority to stop these people breeding this Sire & Dam that produced such nasty genetic diseases. Thye both need to be de-sexed and so does all the litter mates.

The owner of the Sire referred to our situation as a debacle and told us never to contact her again .....

So please explain to me - how are these registered breeders any better than a back yard breeder?????????????????????????

They offered to refund your money, that's what seperates the wheat from the chaff. Try gettin a BYBer to give you any guarantee of make good when it all goes to hell in a hand basket.

Another registered breeder bash and whinge.

Must say I was just about to reply with exactly the same as ReadySetGo. Your BYB or Pet store would simply say "tough luck its your problem".

At least they offered to buy the pup back. What are you really after. A huge payout for compensation? What more could the breeder do?

[yarracully]

SO who has the control to do something to stop these people from breeding????????????????? Again, dog shows !!!!! What about the health and welfare of these animals?? what about breeding to improve the breed? Where are the priorities....... must be with the dogs that look good and can produce more good looking dogs hey.

I don't know what your history with dogs is, but Dog shows has nothing to do with breeders using particular dogs for breeding. Dog shows are only an opportunity to promote the results of breeding. A dog show does not force any one to use any particular dog in their breeding program.

Does the breeder to which you refer actually show?

AS to who can control them consider this, humans even reproduce defective offspring. Does the government do anything to punish humans that produce defective off spring. No its called Nature. And you won't beat nature no matter who you are or what you do.

[Lowenhart]

This thread leaves me feeling so disappointed.

Ollie Waffle you came here with an axe to grind, demanding that registered breeders justify why they are better than BYB or puppy farms. You issue is not with us, you issue is with a single breeder and from the way you have conducted yourself here I can understand why they would not have wanted to continue a relationship with you.

You are expecting breeding dogs to be like manufacturing. We roll out products that are exactly alike, perfect to the specifications. If it's flawed you want compensation, however do you expect the store to give you your $2000 refund while you keep the functioning but still faulty TV? The breeder offered to take the puppy back, refund your money, which is an ethical answer to a difficult situation.

The thing about biology and biological reproduction is that a single mistake, on one tiny sequence of dna can cause devastating results. This mistake could have come from a parent, a chemical interaction or other environmental element OR just a spontaneous mutation. We haven't gotten all the dna sequences sorted out yet, not like the wiring on your tv. Nobody, NOBODY can 100% predict the outcome of the reproduction of complex beings like dogs. We can hazard to guess, do some math and give you a liklihood of some areas - colour, coat type etc.

Ethical breeders of all persuasions take steps to limit the possibilities of known genetic issues.

From a biological point of view, desexing an entire bloodline based on a single puppy's issue is dangerous. Purebred dogs have restricted gene pools for a reason (to maintain the occurance of positive traits), however limiting the existing stock only exacerbates issues with in the breed. Entire breeds have suffered irrevocable damage by "witch hunts", increasing the number and severity of other health issues by the slash and burn of breeding stock who are implicated in a health issue.

[asal]

I did a google as ocd to me means obsessive compulsive disorder. so added the word dwarf and came up with this link?

http://friesian-crazy.tripod.com/health.html

which led me to this link

http://www.dragonflyacres.ca/

as well as this

"Osteochondritis Dissecans (OCD)

OCD is a degenerative joint disease ( a type of developmental orthopaedic disease or DOD) usually found in young, rapidly growing horses who will eventually mature to over 15 hands. As may be expected, Friesians can be prone to the disease, simply due to their size. OCD occurs when cartilage at the end of growing bones, instead of hardening into bone, begins to break down. As a result of this break-down, small bits of cartilage may break completely or partially off and harden into bone cysts, which irritate the area of the joint, causing a build up of fluid (swelling), and pain (lameness).

OCD can be identified by lameness or swelling commonly in the hocks, stifles and fetlocks of young horses, especially those who have recently entered training or become more active, putting more stress on their growing joints. OCD can also cause locking stifles. Although OCD is commonly identified by a lameness, in some cases there may be no obvious symptoms, in which case the problem will likely clear up on it's own. The cause of OCD has been linked to nutrition, particularly mineral imbalances, as well as trauma from excessive physical exercise. The disease is also thought to be at least somewhat genetically inheritable.

OCD can be officially diagnosed by x-rays and other veterinary procedures. Once determined that a lameness is in fact caused by OCD, traditional treatment options include joint injections, stall rest and a change in diet, or surgery to remove the floating bone fragments from the joint. Left untreated, OCD can cause significant, long-term joint damage, and the fullness of recovery after treatment varies depending upon the individual."

so "thought" to be at least somewhat genetically inheratable is a HUGE difference to both parents gave it.

odd u dont mention the linked to nutrition, particularly mineral imblances????? n trauma.

ive a friend put through this, yep the pup was a lab, yep the vet the owner took it too intended taking them to the cleaners for the ops planned.

think the figure was 6,000. she took it to her vet for a second opinion and suprise suprise, it weighed more than its 5 yr old mum at 8 months and had fractures of both elbows, due it was discovered from the owners child, it had jumped from a second floor verandah.

n yes the owners vet had said the damage was genetic........?

n yes curious how registered breeders are supposed to be able to prevent imperfections of every possible kind, yet human parent's cant guarantee their child impunity from imperfection either????

just be careful ollie waffle, once the axe is nice and sharp, dont drop it on your foot

Edited September 5, 2010 by asal

[asal]

This thread leaves me feeling so disappointed.

Ollie Waffle you came here with an axe to grind, demanding that registered breeders justify why they are better than BYB or puppy farms. You issue is not with us, you issue is with a single breeder and from the way you have conducted yourself here I can understand why they would not have wanted to continue a relationship with you.

You are expecting breeding dogs to be like manufacturing. We roll out products that are exactly alike, perfect to the specifications. If it's flawed you want compensation, however do you expect the store to give you your $2000 refund while you keep the functioning but still faulty TV? The breeder offered to take the puppy back, refund your money, which is an ethical answer to a difficult situation.

The thing about biology and biological reproduction is that a single mistake, on one tiny sequence of dna can cause devastating results. This mistake could have come from a parent, a chemical interaction or other environmental element OR just a spontaneous mutation. We haven't gotten all the dna sequences sorted out yet, not like the wiring on your tv. Nobody, NOBODY can 100% predict the outcome of the reproduction of complex beings like dogs. We can hazard to guess, do some math and give you a liklihood of some areas - colour, coat type etc.

Ethical breeders of all persuasions take steps to limit the possibilities of known genetic issues.

From a biological point of view, desexing an entire bloodline based on a single puppy's issue is dangerous. Purebred dogs have restricted gene pools for a reason (to maintain the occurance of positive traits), however limiting the existing stock only exacerbates issues with in the breed. Entire breeds have suffered irrevocable damage by "witch hunts", increasing the number and severity of other health issues by the slash and burn of breeding stock who are implicated in a health issue.

although come to think of it, isnt ollie waffle asking just the same as the rspca and the lobby groups???

perfection in every "PUPPY PRODUCT" produced/born?

the defination of "pedigree" is not too subtly changing from the original known meaning of parentage known to "perfect product" or the manufacturer/breeder is unethical. pity mum nature hasnt got the message faulty genes are not an option anymore

i know, ive taken back a puppy whose digusting fault is although it had perfectly aligned puppy teeth, its adult bottom teeth have come in angled forward?

why?

havnt a clue, the baby teeth were perfect, the jaw line is correct, BUT the adult bottoms are definately angled forwards as if pushed from behind and the look is made even more so as they are at sixes n sevens not evenly leaning forwards.

nothing else wrong with it, no dreadful genetic faults, lovely type, enough to win in the ring. but , no longer perfect, return to sender .

in olly's case is complaining after refusing to return to sender?

Edited September 5, 2010 by asal

[shortstep]

HI Ollie,

I am sorry to hear about your pup.

Can you clarify exactly what type of Dwarfism your pup has?

Is it this type, Ocular-chondrodysplasia?

http://www.labradornet.com/dwarfism.html

Dwarfism in Labradors

For many years there has been a known genetic link between eye defects known as "Focal Retinal Dysplasia" and skeletal abnormalities known as dwarfism. The particular combination of symptoms is mainly found in field trial strains of Labrador retrievers.

Retinal dysplasia is the most important retinal disease affecting Labrador Retrievers used for hunting and field trial work. Retinal dysplasia is a widespread inherited condition in the Labrador. During CERF clinics in Minnesota, there is a 10 to 20% incidence in the Labradors examined. Most dogs have the mild form of the disease. The condition is congenital and may or may not be associated with retinal detachment depending on the extent. (It is relatively uncommon in lines of Labradors used for conformation work.) It is important to be aware of this eye disease.

Retinal dysplasia involves abnormal development of several structures of the visual system. Dogs may be very mildly affected

and demonstrate folds in the retina. These are areas where extra retina develops and instead of forming a thin membrane over

the back surface of the eye, the extra retina develops into folds. This fold results in a blind spot. Often times the retina is also

undernourished and an area of retinal degeneration will occur. Dogs with mild changes (i.e. a few retinal folds), usually have no

visual compromise. Subtle changes on the part of the dog, on the positioning of the head while marking a bird, help affected

Labradors make use of normal areas of the retina. Larger blind spots may cause dogs to miss a mark or miss stationary objects,

while these dogs are able to perceive moving objects with less difficulty.

Labradors with a more severe form of retinal dysplasia may result in blindness due to large areas of retinal folds or

degeneration. Retinal detachment can also develop resulting in blindness. The more severe form of retinal dysplasia can occur

with retinal separation, cataracts, and eye enlargement in dogs which inherit the gene from both the bitch and stud dogs. These

dogs also may suffer from skeletal dysplasia or dwarfism, as the same gene for retinal dysplasia (which works in a dominant

fashion for the eyes) cause skeletal dysplasia (in a recessive fashion).

Retinal dysplasia in Labradors is the result of a dominant gene. Dogs with only a single dose of the genetic information usually

develops the mild form of the condition with retinal folds. These folds can be seen early in life. Because retinal dysplasia is a dominant trait for the eyes, a concentrated effort should be made by dog enthusiasts, by careful selection of dogs for breeding, who do not come from lines with the condition and by using dogs who were examined at an early age and found to be clear. Examination of a two year old dog prior to breeding does not necessarily prevent the introduction of this condition into your line of dogs because very small folds noted at an early age can "straighten out" with growth, making the condition clinically impossible to diagnose in the older dog, although the dog has genetic information to produce other dogs with mild to severe forms of retinal dysplasia. Most of the dogs that are mildly affected suffer no visual compromises and can make excellent hunting dogs or pets.

There are two forms of retinal dysplasia found in Labrador retrievers; one (Retinal Dysplasia- complete) which is found predominantly in dogs of European descent and the other (retina Dysplasia-folds) found in dogs with predominantly American field trial bloodlines. The European form is inherited as an autosomal recessive gene and only effects vision.

The American form is inherited as an incompletely dominant trait with recessive effects on the skeleton resulting in abnormalities of limb development (short-limbed dwarfism). Dogs which receive two recessive genes for this defect (one from each parent) will exhibit retinal detachment which will result in blindness; however, dogs receiving only one recessive gene for this defect (one parent contributes the recessive gene for this defect and one parent contributes the gene for normal retinal development) will develop retinal folds of a non-progressive nature and, therefore, may have normal to slightly impaired vision. In this disease, three different ocular phenotypes are present (normal, localized retinal dysplasia (retinal folds), and complete retinal detachment) and two different skeletal phenotypes are present (normal or dwarf). This is an inherited condition, whose mode of transmission is as follows: Call N the normal gene and rd the gene for retinal dysplasia.

+ N x N normal eyes, normal skeleton

+ N x rd classic symptoms, retinal folds, normal skeleton

+ rd x rd dwarfism, eye problems/blindness, skeletal problems

The gene acts as an autosomal recessive in regards to dwarfism, but acts as though it were dominant when only one parent passes on the gene to its offspring.

If we bred NN x Nrd we would expect half of the puppies to be affected the others normal. If we bred Nrd x Nrd we would expect the following:

+ 1/4 normal

+ 1/2 afflicted carriers, can be identified in puppies

+ 1/4 dwarf

that the ocular and skeletal defects are inherited together, and that the skeletal effects act as a recessive trait and the ocular effects act as an incomplete dominant trait. This implies that 1) any Labrador with any type of RD is a carrier for dwarfism, and 2) at least one of the two parents of puppies with RD is a carrier for dwarfism. Retinal folds may disappear with age, so an accurate evaluation for RD requires that puppies be evaluated, ideally between 8 and 10 weeks of age.

In mild cases of retinal dysplasia, sight is probably not affected much, if at all. In severe cases, skeletal abnormalities are present.

Test for Inherited Dysplasia/OSD in Labrador & Samoyeds Now Available

Ithaca, NY – July, 2008 - OptiGen is offering a new DNA test that identifies the Inherited forms of Retinal Dysplasia associated with OculoSkeletal Dysplasia (OSD) in Labrador Retrievers and Samoyeds. OSD is characterized by short-limbed dwarfism and blindness at an early age. The new OptiGen DNA test for OSD-associated Retinal Dysplasia will allow Labrador Retriever and Samoyed breeders to determine if the retinal folds that are often insignificant in many breeds are correlated to the serious condition of OSD. For more information click on the link above.

http://www.optigen.com/opt9_rdosd.html

[asal]

thanks for that.

how distressing for those with labs

although i expect there are just as nasty ones hiding in most breeds, sadly deletrious genes have been found lurking in every organism not just dogs.

who would have thought a dwarfism gene would be hiding in the massive fresian horses? n how hard its been to eradicate the chestnut gene, no problem for the one born chestnut, BUT like the coloured border collie for so many hundreds of years just not allowed. wonder if a chestnut fresian registery might get off the ground, there is a studbook for red angus now. n lucky days for any non black n white borders born today, they get to grow up WITH rego papers, can even be a show dog? how things have changed eh

but it just goes to show how hard it is to eliminate just a recessive gene for an unwanted colour

Edited September 5, 2010 by asal

[LizT]

Just trying to learn a bit here too.

I have a neighbour who has a female Golden Retriever, beautiful pet. She has since bought a second "better bitch" (her words), that came from "better breeder" and has "better bloodlines' than her original bitch. When the two of them went off for a "adventure", (the original bitch is an escape artist and the second bitch was purchased to keep her company in the hope that she would stop breaking out of their yard, it backfired and the younger bitch has learnt to escape and follow the bad habits of the older dog ) the owner became quite distressed as she was certain someone would "keep" her new puppy as it was such a terrific example of the breed.

I saw the second dog when it had matured to about 2 years of age and I noticed how very short in the legs it was, compared to other Golden Retrievers and it's pal.

So do Goldies also have this dwarfism problem occurring or can it occur in any breed? I must admit I have often seen it in black Labradors.

Incidently if genetics allowed us to screen for all types of diseases and malformations then we wouldn't have people with disabilities. You cannot expect dog breeders to be able to do what human medicine is still trying to achieve with all it's resources. I understand your situation, it's very difficult to return a pet when it has become part of the family. A Vet had told me that my first Cavalier had a heart murmur. We could have returned her but had already fallen in love with her, so since it was classed as 1 out of 10 we felt it wouldn't be an issue for our lovely new pet that was bought for my then, seven year old daughter. We were very fortunate...it turned out to be what is known as a "innocent murmur' or "puppy murmur" with no trace of it when the puppy was 12 weeks old. At almost three years of age she is still "heart clear". My point is we were not emotionally able to give her back either.

When a breeder gives a 'guarantee' it is not a guarantee that nothing could go wrong with the puppy, it is a guarantee that the best intentions in breeding and health screenings available were done and if found to be ill within the period stated can be returned for a refund or replacement.

[shortstep]

thanks for that.

how distressing for those with labs

although i expect there are just as nasty ones hiding in most breeds, sadly deletrious genes have been found lurking in every organism not just dogs.

who would have thought a dwarfism gene would be hiding in the massive fresian horses? n how hard its been to eradicate the chestnut gene, no problem for the one born chestnut, BUT like the coloured border collie for so many hundreds of years just not allowed. wonder if a chestnut fresian registery might get off the ground, there is a studbook for red angus now. n lucky days for any non black n white borders born today, they get to grow up WITH rego papers, can even be a show dog? how things have changed eh

but it just goes to show how hard it is to eliminate just a recessive gene for an unwanted colour

Yes not easy in many cases to prevent some diseases from happening.

However, if this is the type of dwarfism that her pup has, then it is totally preventable by DNA testing the parents and all breeders of labs should be aware of this disease and how to prevent it.

I would also guess that the OCD is a direct result of the deformities of the joint due to the dwarfism (and the other risk factors for OCD). OCD is now believed (by most in science) to be a disease of risk factors more than a disease of a direct gene. Some risk factors include; poor construction, heavy build, large size, youth, and male.

[shortstep]

BUT like the coloured border collie for so many hundreds of years just not allowed.

this off topic but just wanted to expand on the above.

The Australian show ring phenomenon of restricting coat colours is not found in the rest of the world, be it on the paddock or in the breed ring. It is also not found on the paddocks of Australia.

The registry over the past hundred years time you speak of is ISDS.

It was formed in the UK in 1906, more than 50 years prior to any show standard being written in Australia.

The Kennel Clubs and the Working Registries in the UK, NZ, USA, Canada and most if not all of Europe do not limit colours.

There has never been a 'wrong' colour for border collies. Border collie have been bred to work sheep and should not be judged on colour. The standard for the breed for the past hundred years has been one of working style and abilities. The only consideration for colour should be based on local working considerations if they exsist.

World wide you will find that coat colour is not restricted in border collies and is in keeping with current genetic knowledge to not eliminate dogs from gene pools for reasons that are not based in science.

[Bokezu]

OW sorry to hear about your dog, just sheer bad luck, as with human genetics, no guarantee...

I would have given a full refund, but I would have also let you keep the dog, no point in taking back a dog just to rehome it again or pts, when the dog is in a perfectly good, caring home, willing to give the best vet care, jmo.

[ellz]

I would have given a full refund, but I would have also let you keep the dog, no point in taking back a dog just to rehome it again or pts, when the dog is in a perfectly good, caring home, willing to give the best vet care, jmo.

Good for you Bokezu. But that is YOUR individual way of dealing with things. It doesn't make another breeder who would refund and take the puppy back worse, just different. They are at least abiding by the laws of Fair Trading.

If it were me however, I'd probably take the puppy back and euthanase it, simply because I, and very few other people I know would have the $11k that has apparently been spent on it. I certainly couldn't justify spending anywhere near that amount of money if there was no GUARANTEE that things could be fixed and quality of life maintained.

Could I also ask the OP to clarify why they came into the forum posting a "what if?" post initially, when it is apparent that they actually have an axe to grind and it isn't advance research that they are doing?

[shortstep]

Could I also ask the OP to clarify why they came into the forum posting a "what if?" post initially, when it is apparent that they actually have an axe to grind and it isn't advance research that they are doing?

Hi Ellz,

Yes it is clear that Ollie did not come clean on her first posts, she was fishing, but instead of getting answers she needed to help get to the bottom of her problem, she just got a lot of advise that really did not help her. I am sure that Ollie is very upset that her pup has these problems, who would not be.

However, I think her question is a fair one, what is the difference between a registered breeder and an unregistered breeder? And in her eyes it is all about what if anything might have prevented her pup from having this disease/s.

If (and we need to know exactly what kind of dwarfism) this dog does have the kind of dwarfism that is associated with labs, then we know this could have been prevented by a DNA test.

However, how often labs have this disease (how rare is this? )

and if most registered breeders are DNA testing for it or should be DNA testing for this disease, I do not know.

Unfortunately no Lab breeders have entered in to help clarify the situation for her and us.

I do know that one thing registered breeders can do to be clearly different and stand out for Ollie, is to be professional and try to help her understand what has happened. Dismissing it as bad luck is not helping her. I know she expressed unfairness of the breeder wanting the dog back if she was to get a refund, but I do not think if the breeder had said keep the dog and here is your money back that she would have walked away happy.

Yes I am sure she has an axe to grind but so far I am unclear what exactly is wrong with her dog and have even less idea about what if anything the registered breeder could have or should have done to prevent it. It is a reasonable question, what makes an ANKC breeder different in relationship to what has happened to her in this case. So far I do not think we have answered that question.

[ellz]

I don't agree.

The answer is that unfortunately "shit happens" when breeding dogs. BUT by dealing with registered breeders who test for what they can test for, and follow the LAW when things go wrong (ie offer a refund), then a buyer does at least have something more than a closed door in their face which is what they will get from a BYBer or unethical breeder.

I think the issue here is more that the breeder of the litter and the owner (breeder?) of the sire have not given the OP the answers that they WANT is more like the truth.

And as I have said in this thread already, if the OP has approached any of those parties in the manner in which they have posted here, I'm really not surprised that people have not been more forthcoming.

[shortstep]

I don't agree.

The answer is that unfortunately "shit happens" when breeding dogs. BUT by dealing with registered breeders who test for what they can test for, and follow the LAW when things go wrong (ie offer a refund), then a buyer does at least have something more than a closed door in their face which is what they will get from a BYBer or unethical breeder.

So if it is the lab Dwarfism, then you think the breeder is right not to have done the DNA test?

Honestly I have no idea how often this disease happens, perhaps no breeders in Australia test for this disease. I did see on line that it was common to test for it in europe and they were finding carriers fairly often. I saw the one gal on this topic said she has seen it in black labs, so I assume that the breeders must know about it and the DNA test that is available. Honestly I do not know what is the norm for prevention of this disease in labs.

Edited September 6, 2010 by shortstep

[Christina]

It is very sad what happened with your puppy.

The breeder did the right thing by offering you a return & refund. I have to admit that given the problem & the amount you have had to spend, with a not very good outcome I assume ? I would have also euthanised this puppy.

It is the breeders choice what they offer. For a health problem that was genetic & had an averse but not devastating effect on their health & daily well being I may refund the money & let the person keep the dog however the saddest part is if the breeder continues to breed with the affected dogs/lines.

That would piss me right off more than anything.

Genetic problems can crop up out of the blue despite all precautions & care.

You just have to chalk this one up to a very bad experience & please not think that all breeders are the same.

It is a variable thing, like anything in life.

to your dog.

[ellz]

I don't agree.

The answer is that unfortunately "shit happens" when breeding dogs. BUT by dealing with registered breeders who test for what they can test for, and follow the LAW when things go wrong (ie offer a refund), then a buyer does at least have something more than a closed door in their face which is what they will get from a BYBer or unethical breeder.

So if it is the lab Dwarfism, then you think the breeder is right not to have done the DNA test?

Honestly I have no idea how often this disease happens, perhaps no breeders in Australia test for this disease. I did see on line that it was common to test for it in europe and they were finding carriers fairly often. I saw the one gal on this topic said she has seen it in black labs, so I assume that the breeders must know about it and the DNA test that is available. Honestly I do not know what is the norm for prevention of this disease in labs.

I didn't say that. It would depend entirely upon what the problem is and how readily available and affordable the testing is and also, an indicator of whether or not the test should be required or recommended, would be frequency of the condition appearing. If a condition is not READILY prevalent in a breed, then I see no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater and assume that ALL conditions should be tested for.

For example, we struck this in American Cocker Spaniels. There was a DNA test made available for one particular type of PRA that can afflict the breed. Some had the testing done, I, like many others chose not to. Until there is a DNA test available for ALL types of PRA, then why on earth would I want to pay a few hundred dollars for something that will not give me a clear answer anyway when the same amount will have to be paid for subsequent testing for other types of PRA and especially when PRA, whilst common in the breed, is certainly not THE most common eye condition that affects American Cockers.

What the OP called for was the sire, dam and all littermates to be desexed. I'm sorry, but if somebody who had a health issue with a puppy that I bred, rang me and demanded this, I wouldn't exactly be overly forthcoming towards them either, beyond offering the refund and wiping my hands of the person once either I had the puppy or the refund was refused. At that time, I would do my own research to decide whether or not I needed to go a step further in my testing regime or not. But at MY instigation and not at the insistence of an obviously disgruntled puppy purchaser.

[zenchel]

Could I also ask the OP to clarify why they came into the forum posting a "what if?" post initially, when it is apparent that they actually have an axe to grind and it isn't advance research that they are doing?

Hi Ellz,

Yes it is clear that Ollie did not come clean on her first posts, she was fishing, but instead of getting answers she needed to help get to the bottom of her problem, she just got a lot of advise that really did not help her. I am sure that Ollie is very upset that her pup has these problems, who would not be.

If (and we need to know exactly what kind of dwarfism) this dog does have the kind of dwarfism that is associated with labs, then we know this could have been prevented by a DNA test.

However, how often labs have this disease (how rare is this? )

and if most registered breeders are DNA testing for it or should be DNA testing for this disease, I do not know.

Unfortunately no Lab breeders have entered in to help clarify the situation for her and us.

I do know that one thing registered breeders can do to be clearly different and stand out for Ollie, is to be professional and try to help her understand what has happened. Dismissing it as bad luck is not helping her. I know she expressed unfairness of the breeder wanting the dog back if she was to get a refund, but I do not think if the breeder had said keep the dog and here is your money back that she would have walked away happy.

Yes I am sure she has an axe to grind but so far I am unclear what exactly is wrong with her dog and have even less idea about what if anything the registered breeder could have or should have done to prevent it. It is a reasonable question, what makes an ANKC breeder different in relationship to what has happened to her in this case. So far I do not think we have answered that question.

I am aware of this case and I have read the veterinary report on the OP's dog - the OP made it available when attempting to have the breeder sanctioned. I haven't and have no intention of identifying the breeder and I would strongly advise the OP not to also. I've responded to this thread in order to clarify some misrepresentations, as the breeder isn't in a position to do so. It is most unfortunate when these problems arise and in the majority of cases no amount of money refunded is going to make up for the physical issues that the dog faces and the emotional issues that the owner and breeder face. In my experience what counts most is the ability and willingness of the breeder to indicate their desire to understand the dog's and owner's problems and be able to explain to the owner what has gone wrong and what can be done in the best interests of all involved, of course accompanied by professional and empathetic veterinary advice.

This dog was diagnosed with osteochondrosis dissecans as a result of an inconsistency of growth rate between the ulna and the radius. The dog was not diagnosed with dwarfism, either achondroplasia or as a secondary issue to oculo-skeletal dysplasia. Both parents were hip and elbow xrayed, obviously as the pup is registered. The breeder initially offered to refund the purchase price on return of the pup however I don't believe that there was any further direct communication between the parties.

From the correspondence that I read, I believe the OP was somewhat confused about the dog's diagnosis and also regarding what forms of testing are appropriate when breeding Labradors. This could have been handled better, however I don't think the OP really wanted to hear the facts. Unfortunately, sometimes there is such a chasm between breeder and purchaser that no end of talking can help either party.

I don't believe the breeder could or should have done anything that would have prevented the disease; selling the puppy on a legally drawn up sales contract would have helped avoid the situation that eventually arose. I find discussing possible remedies before things actually go wrong is a huge help.

Sylvia