Pinch Collars

[corvus]

So you use the click as a cue, not just as a marker. No different to training the recall to a whistle then except the whistle has a longer range.

I use it as an interruptor and a cue and a marker. It's good for short range. If I need longer range I have emergency recalls. The nice thing about clickers or markers is it doesn't take long to get a good conditioned response. It took about a year to get a good reliable recall through conditioning for Kivi. In contrast, I tried with the marker a couple of months after I introduced it in training and it was very effective then.

[malsrock]

result other than from the political correctness of a humane aspect to say that "I have never corrected my dog in an aversive manner".

Suffice to say that is not my motivation.

There are plenty who do have that motivation, and I have had a few warm discussions with people on that subject a few times, especially trainers who have failed to correct a behavioural issue that I have fixed with terrible things like using prong collars, or air blocking aggressive dogs etc etc. Personally, if you can transform a bad dog into a good one regardless of method used, is good for the dog and the owner at the end of the day

Fiona

[Erny]

I use it as an interruptor and a cue and a marker. It's good for short range. If I need longer range I have emergency recalls. The nice thing about clickers or markers is it doesn't take long to get a good conditioned response. It took about a year to get a good reliable recall through conditioning for Kivi. In contrast, I tried with the marker a couple of months after I introduced it in training and it was very effective then.

How do your dogs figure when you've decided to use it as an interrupter and not a marker?

[corvus]

It's a different circumstance when training a dog from scratch than for instance correcting behavioural issue as the OP has shared with us, and it depends also on the individual dog too I think.

For the sake of argument, what really depends on the individual dog? What I'm getting at is a prong might be too strong for some dogs and just right for others, but what of the effectiveness of the aim behind using a prong, assuming it is to suppress behaviour? Suppressing behaviour is a sound approach if that's what is desired, and choosing to use a tool is no different to me deciding what reward I will use, except if I use a reward that is too hot it will be easier to fix than if I use a punishment that is too strong. If the prong is to be used as an interruptor, isn't the approach of interrupting the behaviour equally effective regardless of whether a prong is used or a clicker, for example?

[corvus]

I use it as an interruptor and a cue and a marker. It's good for short range. If I need longer range I have emergency recalls. The nice thing about clickers or markers is it doesn't take long to get a good conditioned response. It took about a year to get a good reliable recall through conditioning for Kivi. In contrast, I tried with the marker a couple of months after I introduced it in training and it was very effective then.

How do your dogs figure when you've decided to use it as an interrupter and not a marker?

Easy, if they weren't paying attention to what they were doing when they got a click it was an interruptor. I use it as an interruptor when they aren't particularly operant. If they were operant I could give them a cue and reward that behaviour instead and I wouldn't need an interruptor. The key is in the reward delivery afterwards. When I interrupt them with a marker, they look at me and come over for their treat. So they get rewarded for coming over and paying attention. It's not my method, though. It's straight out of Control Unleashed.

ETA The dogs still have to be under threshold. It's aimed for times when the dog is highly distracted but still under threshold. The structure of the game is elegant and pretty foolproof as long as the dog is under threshold IMO. Dog looks at exciting stimuli, dog gets clicked, dog goes "hey, training!" and comes over and gets rewarded for doing so, then dog gets clicked for looking back at the exciting stimuli and rewarded for looking back to the handler. So even if there is a bit of bleeding, it doesn't matter because ultimately you are marking and interrupting the same thing.

Edited September 14, 2010 by corvus

[huski]

There are plenty who do have that motivation, and I have had a few warm discussions with people on that subject a few times, especially trainers who have failed to correct a behavioural issue that I have fixed with terrible things like using prong collars, or air blocking aggressive dogs etc etc. Personally, if you can transform a bad dog into a good one regardless of method used, is good for the dog and the owner at the end of the day

Fiona

LOL "Fiona", that is most definitely true

[~*Shell*~]

If the prong is to be used as an interruptor, isn't the approach of interrupting the behaviour equally effective regardless of whether a prong is used or a clicker, for example?

I really wish you could have seen him the way he was before Corvus. I understand that you don't like Steve and you don't like his methods but if Zero even thought he saw another dog, he would stop and stare for less than a second before he was at the end of his leash trying to attack them. The first trainer we saw described it as "explosive unprovoked aggression". The second looked at him and told me she'd never seen a dog that she believed would happily kill another dog if given the chance before but that she thought Zero would do it in a heartbeat.

At that level I could have screamed at him, waved a big juicy steak under his nose, used any toy in the world and he wouldn't have cared. He was conditioned to the click and to a marker word but he didn't want a treat, he wanted to go and attack another dog. There was no interrupting him with anything where his brain actually had to compute something other than DOG. His problem was that he was never under the threshold when there was another dog around. What do you do in that situation? He's not even registering a click, or if he is, he's sure as hell not looking for a reward.

I get that you think you could have "fixed" him with positive methods and maybe you could have - if you'd been around at the time I would have happily handed over his leash and let you try. As it is, I used a different method that worked quickly, effectively and without (IMO) negative repercussions. You've seen what he's like for yourself! Does he look unhappy to you? Is he afraid of me? Unless you're seeing something different to what I am, I'm inclined to think no.

Nowhere is anyone saying that this is a method that should be applied to all dogs or that this tool should be used on all dogs - the point of going to see a qualified behaviourist is for them to assess the dog and decide what they need and what that dog can handle. The vast majority of people I know would choose a positive method over a correction based one (in fact, I can't think of anyone I know who wouldn't) but I also believe that not everything can be solved using rewards - I tried positive, I tried it for 18 months until it got to the point where I couldn't watch Zero go through life like that anymore and then I looked at the alternative. The alternative worked for us - it worked quickly and effectively which meant I no longer had to watch Zero work himself up to the point where he would throw up on walks or leave him sitting in the backyard while I went to places he can now go without a problem. You have no idea how heart breaking it was to see - I hope you never get to see anything even close to it.

[malsrock]

It's a different circumstance when training a dog from scratch than for instance correcting behavioural issue as the OP has shared with us, and it depends also on the individual dog too I think.

For the sake of argument, what really depends on the individual dog? What I'm getting at is a prong might be too strong for some dogs and just right for others, but what of the effectiveness of the aim behind using a prong, assuming it is to suppress behaviour? Suppressing behaviour is a sound approach if that's what is desired, and choosing to use a tool is no different to me deciding what reward I will use, except if I use a reward that is too hot it will be easier to fix than if I use a punishment that is too strong. If the prong is to be used as an interruptor, isn't the approach of interrupting the behaviour equally effective regardless of whether a prong is used or a clicker, for example?

Providing they respond to the interruptor I don't think it matters what it is, but not all dogs will respond to an non physical interruptor all the time. Say the dog responds to a clicker as an interruptor most of the time anticipating a treat reward which is fine, except when they don't respond seeing a cat dart across the road..........chasing the cat is a more valuable reward than the treat and the reliability isn't there.

Fiona

[malsrock]

If the prong is to be used as an interruptor, isn't the approach of interrupting the behaviour equally effective regardless of whether a prong is used or a clicker, for example?

I really wish you could have seen him the way he was before Corvus. I understand that you don't like Steve and you don't like his methods but if Zero even thought he saw another dog, he would stop and stare for less than a second before he was at the end of his leash trying to attack them. The first trainer we saw described it as "explosive unprovoked aggression". The second looked at him and told me she'd never seen a dog that she believed would happily kill another dog if given the chance before but that she thought Zero would do it in a heartbeat.

At that level I could have screamed at him, waved a big juicy steak under his nose, used any toy in the world and he wouldn't have cared. He was conditioned to the click and to a marker word but he didn't want a treat, he wanted to go and attack another dog. There was no interrupting him with anything where his brain actually had to compute something other than DOG. His problem was that he was never under the threshold when there was another dog around. What do you do in that situation? He's not even registering a click, or if he is, he's sure as hell not looking for a reward.

I get that you think you could have "fixed" him with positive methods and maybe you could have - if you'd been around at the time I would have happily handed over his leash and let you try. As it is, I used a different method that worked quickly, effectively and without (IMO) negative repercussions. You've seen what he's like for yourself! Does he look unhappy to you? Is he afraid of me? Unless you're seeing something different to what I am, I'm inclined to think no.

Nowhere is anyone saying that this is a method that should be applied to all dogs or that this tool should be used on all dogs - the point of going to see a qualified behaviourist is for them to assess the dog and decide what they need and what that dog can handle. The vast majority of people I know would choose a positive method over a correction based one (in fact, I can't think of anyone I know who wouldn't) but I also believe that not everything can be solved using rewards - I tried positive, I tried it for 18 months until it got to the point where I couldn't watch Zero go through life like that anymore and then I looked at the alternative. The alternative worked for us - it worked quickly and effectively which meant I no longer had to watch Zero work himself up to the point where he would throw up on walks or leave him sitting in the backyard while I went to places he can now go without a problem. You have no idea how heart breaking it was to see - I hope you never get to see anything even close to it.

Always remember Shell, with Steve's help you rehabilitated Zero's behaviour and actually got the job done with excellent results Regardless of method, you acheived the result, not the others who believe you did it wrong. Actually achieveing the result and thinking you can are two different things

Fiona

[corvus]

If the prong is to be used as an interruptor, isn't the approach of interrupting the behaviour equally effective regardless of whether a prong is used or a clicker, for example?

I get that you think you could have "fixed" him with positive methods and maybe you could have - if you'd been around at the time I would have happily handed over his leash and let you try. As it is, I used a different method that worked quickly, effectively and without (IMO) negative repercussions. You've seen what he's like for yourself! Does he look unhappy to you? Is he afraid of me? Unless you're seeing something different to what I am, I'm inclined to think no.

Nono, that's not the point I was making at all. I have no idea if anyone could have had the success with him using a different tool than you have had with the prong, and there's no sense in speculating because what was done worked. The point I was making was the method is sound. An interruptor isn't negative by nature. It's what happens after it that determines whether it's a positive interruptor or a negative interruptor. All it does is create a choice junction for the dog, allowing for a different behaviour.

As I said in an earlier post, IMO you do what you have to in order to distract the dog. If I were using a prong as an interruptor and it suppressed behaviour, then it wouldn't be just an interruptor. It would be a punishment as well.

[Lollipup]

Well I haven't tried my dog treats at all!

haha! The treats you would be willing to try would probably be the ones of most value to the dogs

[Aidan]

As I said in an earlier post, IMO you do what you have to in order to distract the dog.

And some of us don't even try to distract the dog any which way.

[corvus]

As I said in an earlier post, IMO you do what you have to in order to distract the dog.

And some of us don't even try to distract the dog any which way.

I like it better when I had the chance to counter condition or have an incompatible behaviour conditioned properly so it works in those super distracting moments. I'm still catching on, though.

But now I'm confused. I thought we were talking about recurring situations in which the dog is nearly over threshold?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: First I wanted to say Shell, you rock!

You came to me with a "Red Zone" dog that was so confused, lost and frightened, you turned his life around...

And then, I must be the a little slow because I cant for the life of me ever actually use my imagination to accurately determine how something will work, I have to try it or use it first.

I guess it is hard not to look at the pinch collar and make judgement on its looks but its looks really play no part in defining how it works.

Imagine when the clicker was first invented, take a look and listen to it and then try and make your judgement on its usefulness? Even today when people who have never heard of clicker training are told about it, they look for the cameras to see if you're having them on. ;)

"The pen is mightier than the sword." How can that be? The sword is a huge sharp metal object and the pen is a little often plastic thing? I guess it comes down to the way it is used, doesn't it?

There are a few people here who haven't used a prong collar but are making a lot of assumptions on how they are used, see again I must be slow because I thought they could be used many ways, not just one. ;)

I am not suggesting anyone go and use one either, but for things that I have never used or tried, I don't pass judgement on or advise others for or against things I really have little to no knowledge about.

I feel the only true way to decide which is better or worse is to try both options.

I can spill out a lot of jargon too and talk about punishment, interrupters, conditioning etc, but in reality none of those things help people with their dogs.

It wouldn't have helped Shell and Zero, so what value do they have really?

Many people approach rehabbing dog to dog aggression by using distractive measures, I think it would be one of the more common methods, others attempt to correct the aggression calling it bad manners or unacceptable, that's pretty common too.

I don't do either, I don't think distracting the dog is any way of teaching it to be comfortable around a trigger for aggression, so I want the dog to know the other dog is there, know what it looks like, know what its doing and to come to terms with that.

I didn't use a prong collar to distract Zero away from other dogs, nothing of the sort, nor was he corrected for lunging, misbehaving or being aggressive, he was taught (in the absence of other dogs and any distractions) impulse control.

He was taught a target behaviour, to walk on a loose leash and seek guidance from his handler, his Mum, Shell.

There were a lot of other programs supplied too to solidify the bond, add communication to the relationship, improve impulse control around positive influences and of course finally desensitize him to other dogs and counter condition their value from negative to positive.

Now people can go and copy what I just wrote and apply it to a dog that is aggressive and more often than not, it won't work.

The root of the behaviour must be considered, the aggression driver must be accurately diagnosed and a specific program must be written for this particular dog. It would be easy if all dogs were the same, but they aren't.

Sometimes the reason for going to a prong collar is to suppress some hyper active behaviour so that communication can be established, once this is there often the suppression is stopped and more conditioning is applied.

When we have the communication system established I try very hard to get the dog back onto a martingale or flat collar and use a variety of methods, strategies and programs to achieve this, including Touch Techniques, Clicker Training, Training in Drive etc.

In fact I will use whatever will work regardless of how I will be judged by others.

I have a lot of people come to me that are just lost, they cannot control their dog and it is aggressive, whilst coming up with plan that would be applauded by dog enthusiasts here would be great, some people don't want technical steps, can't do them in fact, some don't want to spend 12 months conditioning their dogs not to react in a certain way, they need to see results now to regain faith and invest in a program and their dog.

Dog aggression is a strong trigger for anxiety in people, regardless of the size of the dog, a person's loved pet that is displaying uncontrolled aggression can really turn on a number of horrible fears and phobias in people and the longer the aggression persists, the more likely this will end up as a managed behaviour rather than a cured one, in both human and dog.

I can focus on only what is best for the dog and leave people to fend for themselves with their fears and anxieties, but I will leave it to you to guess how that turns out for the dog.

Should people have more patience, trust or faith? Probably but right now they don't or they are scared, and if they don't see a way to get a handle on things, often in the first session, they euthanize the dog.

We can all rave about how wrong that is, but it goes on every day anyway.

I work with a couple of Psychologists in helping people deal with serious problems they have related to dogs, it is fact that people begin to feel putting down their dog is the right decision when they are in this frame of mind, only to be end up distraught later on.

People bring their dogs to me, I invest myself in their dogs and care about them too and do everything in my power to get that dog to where the owner and the dog needs it to be.

Edited September 15, 2010 by K9Pro

[TrinaJ]

Shell, I only just watched the clip of Zero and would like to commend you and thank you for not giving up on him - your clip brought tears to my eyes, if only everyone were as dedicated to their dogs we'd have a lot more stable happy dogs in the world. You are a credit to him

[ness]

I would also agree with how well Shell has done with Zero. I met Zero when I was staying with TerraNik and you would never have known he had issues with strange dogs. Shell you have done wonderful things with Zero.

[aussielover]

If a dogs drive around other dogs is stronger then the drive for food common sense would say a correction is needed in this case no if's or buts.

I think that with my girl sometimes, the consequence of losing something is far worse for her than the consequence of getting a correction. If she really wants the tug, she does not deal well with losing the chance to get it. Same with downing before we start tracking, she learned pretty quickly that dogs that don't down, don't track. So sometimes I think, if you can control the dog's access to the reinforcer (which is quite often true in daily life), then that can be a more powerful & memorable consequence for the dog than correcting the dog.

What about for something that they will never be allowed to have? eg. never being allowed to pick up food off the floor while on lead, or never being able to greet other dogs while on the lead.

You can't get rid of all the food on the pavement and you can't tell other people not to walk their dogs LOL

In this case would you apply a correction or would you distract or is it something that depends on the individual dog?

(just out of interest, I already have instructions on what to do with my own dog in this case )

[Staranais]

Yes, congratulations to Shell & Zero! I wish I could have gotten the same results with my old dog, also very aggressive, who ended up very well managed, but never cured. You should be tremendously proud of yourselves.

Always remember Shell, with Steve's help you rehabilitated Zero's behaviour and actually got the job done with excellent results Regardless of method, you acheived the result, not the others who believe you did it wrong. Actually achieveing the result and thinking you can are two different things

Fiona

Yes, the proof is in the pudding - if it works, it works. Lots of people think they can cure aggression - and probably many can in some cases - but in my experience, most trainers I've consulted can talk the talk about what they would do, but can't walk the walk when you really do show up with a dog that seriously intends to kill the other dogs.

And most people who haven't experienced owning a truly aggressive dog don't understand how absolutely horrible & heartrenching it is to live with a dog that you love, but that continually terrifies you with its behaviour towards other animals.

[Staranais]

What about for something that they will never be allowed to have? eg. never being allowed to pick up food off the floor while on lead, or never being able to greet other dogs while on the lead.

You can't get rid of all the food on the pavement and you can't tell other people not to walk their dogs LOL

In this case would you apply a correction or would you distract or is it something that depends on the individual dog?

(just out of interest, I already have instructions on what to do with my own dog in this case )

Oh, you posted as I was posting. That's why I said, in many cases. There are some things your dog will want that you will never want it to have. I am not adverse to correcting my dog, or distracting her. But as a general rule, I think making her getting what she wants contingent on her doing what I want is a good habit for us to be in.

So if you never want your dog to greet another dog on leash, I'd never let it do it. But if you sometimes want it to greet other dogs on leash, then I'd make sure it always earned the privilege by acting politely, never got to meet other dogs after acting like a complete pork chop.

[OSoSwift]

So you use the click as a cue, not just as a marker. No different to training the recall to a whistle then except the whistle has a longer range.

I use it as an interruptor and a cue and a marker. It's good for short range. If I need longer range I have emergency recalls. The nice thing about clickers or markers is it doesn't take long to get a good conditioned response. It took about a year to get a good reliable recall through conditioning for Kivi. In contrast, I tried with the marker a couple of months after I introduced it in training and it was very effective then.

I am sorry Corvus, but that sounds like a recipe for confusion for a dog.

I just cannot fathom how using the clicker as three seperate things is conducive with training that is precise and clear to a dog. There are so many other things to use as a cue. For myself the clicker is a marker that is it. I do have a verbal "go on" signal but that is it. For a cue, such as "focus we are training" is a verbal word.

As far a Prong collars go I have never used one, never seen one in the flesh so cannot comment. It is such a shame though that these threads seem to turn from intellegent discussion to, They are wrong I am right arguments.

I think much could be learned if people read what was written instead of pushing their own agenda.

Some people are great at PP training I have seen some dogs that bring a tear to my eye they work so well, I have seen other PP trainers that wouldn't know how to train it properly if it bit them on the butt. Similarly I have seen a Check chain in the hands of a person reduce a dog to a quivering mess, I have seen others where the dog works to perfection. Competency for the method they use is the key.

Everyone and every dog is different, I train the way I do because it works well for me, I have trained differently in the past and while it worked what I do know works so much better it is not really comparable.

I also think no-body can say what has been achieved with Zero can be "wrong" he was trained with a method that suited him and his owner and gave him a second chance at life, and a fulfilling good one. In this instance the owner, trainer and dog liked that method got it right and it worked - how can that be wrong??

I think people need to stop bickering and pushing their own agenda and think of the dogs

Edited September 15, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis