Breeders Permit Meeting

[Fit for a King]

Sigh - I would suggest that one of you contact MBSC and get the facts - it was clearly stated the other night that we would NOT be limited to one litter per year etc - however - anyone not having a breeder's permit would not legally be allowed to breed under the bylaws and by doing so would be in breach of DQ laws.

Waldem - I have been specifically talking about what MS has done in our shire...if you have specific issues about what has happened in your shire then pick up the phone and call Mark or organise a meeting to see what can be done. I'd like to say that all shires would be as cooperative as MB but that isn't the case. As for the RSPCA hat thing - the reality is that DQ cannot just thumb their nose at the RSPCA - remember the adage about keeping friends close and enemies closer? The more the RSPCA is educated about breeders and what they hope to achieve the better.....BUT that doesn't mean that ANKC breeders should be above the law - there are still an element that will thumb their nose, keep their dogs in terrible conditions and puppy farm.....if they get caught and closed down - good.

Steve - I am not at all confused who and what your organisation is - I hear a lot of noise about what you are doing for your members - and you seem to infer that getting involved at council level is one of them - I am just yet to see anything concrete arise from that......

[Steve]

Here is the biggest deal for me.

As an Australian citizen why am I cheated and not informed of my rights when these new by laws are introduced?

Why cant I make a quick visit to a website or make a phone call to be able to know that if I simply don't want to do as I'm told to do with my dogs what the real punishment may be?

For as long as I can remember people in some shires in NSW have been told they have a 2 dog limit - people who have moved into these shires with more than 2 dogs have been distressed and have had to either move themselves or send their dog off to God or the pound.People I know have hidden their dogs and been bullied and intimidated by councils to do as they are told and comply with these by laws. Yet no council in NSW can legally restrict how many dogs a person owns if they house them according to local environment laws.

Why has this been kept such a secret and why isnt part of what any council has to do when they introduce by laws to also state which ones are enforceable and which are not.

Why does our state CC simply tell us that as members we have t comply w ith these by laws without telling us we had a right to refuse?

Are these council by laws - namely the ones now in place on the Gold coast and the like enforceable and if they are not why on earth don't we all simply say bugger off?

Why do we desex our dogs according to council laws when that is more prohibitive of our property rights than state laws - why doesn't someone tell us we don't have to if we don't have to?

federal and state laws are there to protect our rights - yet council can make a proclamation and do as they please and we don't know question it because we have all been hood winked.

Queensland state law does not say a dog owner has to do these things so are these laws enforceable or not?

[Waldem]

Queensland state law does not say a dog owner has to do these things so are these laws enforceable or not?

Yes, this is exactly what we don't know. Are these laws enforceable even when they clearly contradict State Laws or simple Civil Rights - like Lawful use of your property, enjoyment of your property (ie the dog), discrimination of one group over another, hindering my competitive ability over my peers, etc., etc.

so how do we find out I wonder?

[shortstep]

Sigh - I would suggest that one of you contact MBSC and get the facts - it was clearly stated the other night that we would NOT be limited to one litter per year etc - however - anyone not having a breeder's permit would not legally be allowed to breed under the bylaws and by doing so would be in breach of DQ laws.

Seems to me that several others have brought forth documentation to prove their points. You are the one who says we just have to take your word for it.

So what about it, is there anything in print we can see or read.

Can you explain the 12-16 month comment on the web site? or does your word over rule that web site?

You forgot to add, they said "If you are good, followed all the rules and trot along the beach as you are told, there would be nothing to worry about".

Edited October 5, 2010 by shortstep

[Waldem]

Waldem - I have been specifically talking about what MS has done in our shire...if you have specific issues about what has happened in your shire then pick up the phone and call Mark or organise a meeting to see what can be done. I'd like to say that all shires would be as cooperative as MB but that isn't the case. As for the RSPCA hat thing - the reality is that DQ cannot just thumb their nose at the RSPCA - remember the adage about keeping friends close and enemies closer? The more the RSPCA is educated about breeders and what they hope to achieve the better.....BUT that doesn't mean that ANKC breeders should be above the law - there are still an element that will thumb their nose, keep their dogs in terrible conditions and puppy farm.....if they get caught and closed down - good.

Ok, Fit for A King, you don't know anything about GCCC rulings, that's fair enough. Could you then perhaps be so kind as to let us all know exactly the precise benefits that Mark Shepherd has obtained for DogsQld members in your Shire please?

That would be very helpful to your Gold Coast fellow DogsQld members as I can then go and hit Mark up as to why he has not managed to obtain the same benefits for us - whatever they may be - I'm really dying to know.

I have emailed Mark in great detail twice and spoken to him on the phone at great length once. I'm now waiting for him to reply to my last email. I'm certainly not talking about him behind his back. I'm simply continuing to talk while I await his answer!

No point sitting around.

I also contacted today the President of my Dog Obedience Club as they are quoted by GCCC as supporting and being consulted in the Breeder Permit system. This apparently is not the case and this is the first she knew of their honorable mention. They were against the "dopey" idea from the start. Makes one wonder yet again about the ethics of the people putting all this through.

[shortstep]

Oh wow look at this

ANKC membership over the past 15 years had dropped by about 1/3 from 55,000 down to 34,000.

That is an incredible decline, something must be going terribly wrong.

Many, if not most of these people will not be breeders either. They will be pet owners doing agility, obedience, other activities, spouses and family members, businesses and organizations.

Yes a very good idea to put a lot more pressure on this rapidly dwindling group of dog breeders.

We can know this is for the greater good and will certainly help get rid of puppy farmers.

edited to add,

Makes me think of the saying, With friends like these who needs enemies.

Edited October 5, 2010 by shortstep

[Steve]

Sigh - I would suggest that one of you contact MBSC and get the facts - it was clearly stated the other night that we would NOT be limited to one litter per year etc - however - anyone not having a breeder's permit would not legally be allowed to breed under the bylaws and by doing so would be in breach of DQ laws.

Waldem - I have been specifically talking about what MS has done in our shire...if you have specific issues about what has happened in your shire then pick up the phone and call Mark or organise a meeting to see what can be done. I'd like to say that all shires would be as cooperative as MB but that isn't the case. As for the RSPCA hat thing - the reality is that DQ cannot just thumb their nose at the RSPCA - remember the adage about keeping friends close and enemies closer? The more the RSPCA is educated about breeders and what they hope to achieve the better.....BUT that doesn't mean that ANKC breeders should be above the law - there are still an element that will thumb their nose, keep their dogs in terrible conditions and puppy farm.....if they get caught and closed down - good.

Steve - I am not at all confused who and what your organisation is - I hear a lot of noise about what you are doing for your members - and you seem to infer that getting involved at council level is one of them - I am just yet to see anything concrete arise from that......

You say you are not confused but then go on to again say something that has nothing to do with us.

Because you are still clearly confused about what we do - Our only role at council level is to sometimes act as liaison for our members and disseminate information.

For the record we can never be made applicable or acceptable organisations for exemptions etc at council level as we do not register our members dogs and we never will.

We are not an ANKC alternative nor are we an ANKC competitor and we never will be.

Trying to beat me up because you cant see anything the MDBA have done at council level that you can measure is a wasted activity. Our obligations are to our own members and

not to compete with the Canine Councils. Think about it = if Dogs Queensland are in there negotiating and signing off on what they say is a good thing for their members and their dogs and I go in and say other wise - considering all of our members in your state are the very people Dogs Q are supposedly speaking for and they breed the same dogs it would be a bit of a wasted exercise - dontchya think considering how many members DQ are representing in comparison to how many we do?

When we went in against impending laws in Victoria where people who took a debarked dog to a dog show could be made criminals how much would we have gained when they were CC dogs, CC members, CC shows if we had kept fighting?

I have contacted the MBSC and gotten the facts. The reason I came into this conversation was to say what they say and what you get may not be the same so to tread carefully and now Im convinced that sooner or later there will be a pain for people who may have felt they were safe.

This is based on what some of our members are now facing and knowing that registered breeder numbers who are not MDBA members drop every day with the main reason given - over regulation.

Still the big question which seems to be too hard for anyone who should know to answer.

Are these laws enforceable ?

[MissMonaro]

I have contacted the MBSC and gotten the facts. The reason I came into this conversation was to say what they say and what you get may not be the same so to tread carefully and now Im convinced that sooner or later there will be a pain for people who may have felt they were safe.

Steve - I for one am still quite skeptical about what the council is up to. Oh yes, I do want to beleive that they genuinely care about us.....but I have lived in this area for a long time and it is very hard to feel the love with the new MBRC when I can remember the past and the treatment that was given to dog owners is still right there in my head.

When the councils first amalgamated the first thing they did was put the dog registrations up and remove the discount that CCCQ members and the greyhound owners previously got. So that was just the most recent thing that got us all off side.

Dogs Qld have gone in to councils in regards to "their" members and what we can get. They haven't gone in to bat for the pet person who wants to keep an entire dog, or the farmers, or whomever else - that is up to them.

However, what it has done for us in the MBRC -

If you are a "MBRC breeder" then it costs you $130 to apply, then its $25 a year after that to maintain the permit.

Dog rego for entire dogs drops then from $80 down to $20 per dog - entire or desexed.

Entire dog $80

Entire dogs for CCCQ members (who are not breeders)/pensioners/obedience trained etc - $60

Desexed dogs $25 or for CCCQ/pensioners/obedience trained dogs = $20.

That is a big saving - 4 entire dogs previously $320 - now $240 with CCCQ membership or with breeders permit $80.

Exemptions from registration fees

• Assistance dogs (including guidedogs)

• Government entity dogs (service dogs)

• Bonafide working dogs on rural land

Please contact customer service for further details regarding these exemptions

Now without going back through the topic - someone said that some law says that the local council cannot tell you how many animals you can have or what you want to do with your animals etc......

now if this is in fact true - why then has this never been challenged by anyone ????

[Steve]

I have contacted the MBSC and gotten the facts. The reason I came into this conversation was to say what they say and what you get may not be the same so to tread carefully and now Im convinced that sooner or later there will be a pain for people who may have felt they were safe.

Steve - I for one am still quite skeptical about what the council is up to. Oh yes, I do want to beleive that they genuinely care about us.....but I have lived in this area for a long time and it is very hard to feel the love with the new MBRC when I can remember the past and the treatment that was given to dog owners is still right there in my head.

When the councils first amalgamated the first thing they did was put the dog registrations up and remove the discount that CCCQ members and the greyhound owners previously got. So that was just the most recent thing that got us all off side.

Dogs Qld have gone in to councils in regards to "their" members and what we can get. They haven't gone in to bat for the pet person who wants to keep an entire dog, or the farmers, or whomever else - that is up to them.

However, what it has done for us in the MBRC -

If you are a "MBRC breeder" then it costs you $130 to apply, then its $25 a year after that to maintain the permit.

Dog rego for entire dogs drops then from $80 down to $20 per dog - entire or desexed.

Entire dog $80

Entire dogs for CCCQ members (who are not breeders)/pensioners/obedience trained etc - $60

Desexed dogs $25 or for CCCQ/pensioners/obedience trained dogs = $20.

That is a big saving - 4 entire dogs previously $320 - now $240 with CCCQ membership or with breeders permit $80.

Exemptions from registration fees

• Assistance dogs (including guidedogs)

• Government entity dogs (service dogs)

• Bonafide working dogs on rural land

Please contact customer service for further details regarding these exemptions

Now without going back through the topic - someone said that some law says that the local council cannot tell you how many animals you can have or what you want to do with your animals etc......

now if this is in fact true - why then has this never been challenged by anyone ????

It took years for it to be challenged by anyone in NSW and now the fact that council cannot impose limits on numbers is actually on the companion animals website but still many people being bullied by their councils continue to think they can only own 2 dogs.

In NSW and Victoria you get a reduction on registration fees if you are a member of an approved organisation.Right now for dogs that is Dogs NSW and Vic Dogs but I know that the AAPDB is currently applying for this as well- which they are able to do and will be accepted as they now fit all of the criteria as they register their members dogs. The fact that some people in Queensland are being given reductions because they are DQ means that they will also have to give the same reductions to AAPDB members as they do for ANKC in Queensland too.The fact that ANKC are given these reductions and exemptions is a gold mine for the AAPDB because anyone can join them and they will instantly save money. For puppy farmers who own 100 plus dogs this will be very much to their advantage and a huge difference in registration costs. Some registered breeders will leave DQ and join them too. Over night this group will be a much more powerful group than ANKC. More members, more money , more backing and more media on their side.

Federal and state laws have been made to ensure people still have basic rights and council laws cannot be enforced if they are more prohibitive than state laws.You cant for example have one shire define a breeder as someone who owns an entire dog unless that is the state definition. NSW definition is anyone involved in the activity of breeding dogs - that covers it even if you only have one dog and one litter so local laws cant define it as someone who owns an entire dog. No matter what council say I don't have to desex because state law doesn't say I have to and I am not considered a breeder even if I own a dozen entire dogs until I breed them even if I own a prefix with the CC.

Usually whether they are enforceable or not is to be seen in the fine print and is in the wording for the punishment if you don't comply but it needs someone who is qualified to determine our rights to answer the questions which should be easy to find but never are.

There are many other things which should be discussed and should have been discussed long before now and we need to be aware of the fact that if a law isn't enforceable this is the last thing council will let out of the bag and that they can and do change laws and introduce new ones all the time so what you think is the go today may not be what is the go next year.

Once these things come in QC members have no option but to comply because their codes of conduct say they have to whether they are enforceable or not but if they are not enforceable and QC are the only ones who have to comply it doesn't really feel like QC have had much of a win.

Someone needs to ask why the grey hound people can dodge this altogether on the Gold coast too.

[shortstep]

However, what it has done for us in the MBRC -

If you are a "MBRC breeder" then it costs you $130 to apply, then its $25 a year after that to maintain the permit.

Dog rego for entire dogs drops then from $80 down to $20 per dog - entire or desexed.

Entire dog $80

Entire dogs for CCCQ members (who are not breeders)/pensioners/obedience trained etc - $60

Desexed dogs $25 or for CCCQ/pensioners/obedience trained dogs = $20.

That is a big saving - 4 entire dogs previously $320 - now $240 with CCCQ membership or with breeders permit $80.

Now I understand.

It is not about promoting ANKC breeders so the public can benefit from more availability of quality bred pups. ANKC breeders never breed pets and the public should feel very lucky if they ever get a chance to have an ANKC pup (per Happyfoot). This has nothing to do with preventing puppy farms and will likely increase their sales #'s in these shires.

It is not an attempt to stop the death spiral that ANKC is experiencing. It has nothing to do with concern over the future of dogs, their owners and breeders during this time when all dog people should rally together to protect the rights of dog ownership.

It is all about savings the ANKC breeders get on rego.

Gees sometimes I really do make things far more complicated than they really are, sorry.

Edited October 5, 2010 by shortstep

[Steve]

However, what it has done for us in the MBRC -

If you are a "MBRC breeder" then it costs you $130 to apply, then its $25 a year after that to maintain the permit.

Dog rego for entire dogs drops then from $80 down to $20 per dog - entire or desexed.

Entire dog $80

Entire dogs for CCCQ members (who are not breeders)/pensioners/obedience trained etc - $60

Desexed dogs $25 or for CCCQ/pensioners/obedience trained dogs = $20.

That is a big saving - 4 entire dogs previously $320 - now $240 with CCCQ membership or with breeders permit $80.

This is about what one of our members who live in a different shire was told when she attended a similar meeting early in the year.

Up until now she didnt need to have her dogs registered because they are in a rural zone now the CC got her a discount of $20 per dog.Now she has to have the permit and cant sell a puppy without the permit - around $200 but because she has 6 entire dogs she has been judged as running a business so she has to have a development application to be able to breed them.Once only DA application fee of $1500 but the DA people have told her she needs kennels with concrete floors and a whole lot of other things have to be addressed as she is now a kennel rather than a breeder who only needs a permit. No permit until she complies with environment ruling. The fact that she is DQ hasnt made any difference to the fact that she is judged as being a business - there appears to be some line in the sand which places a registered breeder from a hobby breeder to business - The wording on DQ website does not instill confidence that anyone who has more than a couple of dogs with a litter every two years will be considered hobby breeders for too long.Even if those involved in dog laws are good with this for now sooner or later environmental laws have to cut in because without that people can breed a couple of hundred and keep them any way they like. They are not going to get away with saying CC members are hobby with 8 dogs but someone who doesn't register their litters with 8 dogs is

breeding for profit because state law says its any activity of this description. And state law wins because these are more prohibitive for one group and they are anti competitive - Federal law which is the antz pantz and no one gets around them.

Her working dogs which are also show dogs are not included in the figures.

So she gets a discount but that is $20 more per dog per year than what she had, she has to pay a permit fee, she has to pay 1500 for the DA and put in kennels which can only have 2 dogs in each and a separate area to whelp them in and a quarantine area approx $20,000.

Hopefully what you see now is what you will get but logically I think you can see it screaming warning.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Steve

[goldchow]

The South Burnett Regional Council also held community meetings late last year to which mostly all breeders in the area attended. We were all rather stunned at how little the councillors involved knew regarding the keeping of dogs let alone breeding, I think they too were a little overwhelmed at the complexity of coming to some sort of reasonable resolution. We all came away feeling pretty happy that we'd been able to 'educate' and get our point across and were promised that council would look at a seperate solution re registrations etc for those of us with more than the usual one and two dogs.

The Council here introduced the new registration & microchipping laws beginning of Oct, with little fanfare and not terribly well done and the offices have been inundated with phone calls from irate owners at the lack of warning and information given to ordinary householders. However as breeders we ourselves have heard nothing apart from the breeder Steve mentions above. The information now supplied in the council newsletter only refers to registration and microchipping, there's nothing mentioned about breeder permits or DAs.

If anyone with more than six entire dogs is to be classed as a 'business' then this will include every breeder I know that lives in the area. As far as I am aware according to the ATO, six entire bitches need to kept before the pastime can be registered as a business. This was sometime ago that I contacted them so perhaps its different now and something I'll be checking on.

In one correspondence from a councillor she states that they are still looking at a one price of Approx $225 for up to 25 dogs but to get this concession one must be a DQ member. At the time of writing ( June 2010) they were still dealing with town planning implications as required by State law.

The whole debacle isn't looking promising and after the aforesaid breeders experience we're all waiting in suspense as to who the next one is to be with no one game enough to put their hand up for more information.

[Fit for a King]

For all Dogs Queensland members currently resident in Moreton Bay Regional Council area. MBRC will close off breeder permit applications on Thursday 23rd December. This date is actually an extension of about a month past the original cut off date.

If you haven't yet applied for a breeder permit please do so urgently. For members considering moving in to MBRC after the closing date - you can apply as a new resident with no time restrictions.

If you have submitted an application more than 4 weeks ago and to date have not yet had a property inspection please contact:

Louise Laurens

MBRC

[email protected]

or telephone her on mobile 0438204359