ncarter Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi Guys, Just trying to understand a few things when it comes to breeding and would like to know how you breeders think when you consider matings. If you could give me some examples of what you have done in your own breeding program that would be great. Say you have a bitch right. She is quite nice in terms of conformation etc, but you want to breed something with more flashiness (like a better coat, better ears, more drive) basically things that would stand out in the ring. Is it riskier to breed to a totally unrelated dog, compared to say a dog which would produce a COI in the offspring of say 0-3%? So im really wondering about degrees of outcrossing here. Do you only line-breed when you are happy with what you already have in the bitch? If you dont have the right conformation and movement in the bitch can you still acheive significant improvements by line-breeding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Last week a friend asked my opinion on a breeding. Since then been correlating for my journal. NOTE: Unfinished. But thought I would add regardless. INBREEDING (Mating of closely related individuals) Pros: Produces uniform or predictable offspring. Hidden (recessive) genes show up and can be eliminated. Individuals will "breed true" and are "pure." Doubles up good genes. Eliminates unwanted traits. Cons: Doubles up on faults and weaknesses. Progressive loss of vigor and immune response. Increased reproductive failures, fewer offspring. Emphasis on appearance/working traits means accidental loss of "good" genes for other attributes. Genetically impoverished individuals. Maximizes things under Additive control, Minimizes Epistatic or Dominance Effects (Heterosis or Hybrid Vigor). It also assumes you have all the variation you need within your original population, all you need to do is fix the favorable stuff and get rid of the unfavorable genes. Usually work well under well defined environment. You really know the phenotype of what you want. LINE-BREEDING - just another form of inbreeding (Mating of less closely related individuals) Pros: Avoid inbreeding of very closely-related dogs, but dogs are still "pure". Produces uniform or predictable offspring. Slows genetic impoverishment. Cons: Require excellent individuals. Does not halt genetic impoverishment, only slows it down. OUTCROSSING (Mating of unrelated individuals within the same breed) Brings in new qualities or reintroduces lost qualities. Increases vigor. (Dominance and Epistatic Effects... often more adaptable to multiple environments) Dogs are still "pure". (I don't know about that or not... some things you can see, some you cannot) Cons: Less consistency and predictability of offspring.(Can require larger population sizes and a higer culling level to sort things out) May have to breed out unwanted genes accidentally introduced at same time. May be hard to find individuals which are true outcrosses. HYBRIDIZATION (Mating of unrelated individuals of different breeds) - Just another form of outcrossing... any cross is a form of hybridization.Brings in new qualities or reintroduces lost qualities. Increases vigor, may improve immune system and reproductive capacity. Introduces totally new traits e.g. color. Fur type. May result in new breeds. The offspring are considered "impure" for many generations. Cons: Unpredictable - new traits may not all be desirable. Must choose outcross breed whose qualities complement or match own breed. May take years to eliminate unwanted traits/loss of type. May take years to get consistent offspring. Produces many variants not suitable for use in breeding program. Feel free to comment. Obviously itemised and very limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 It's more complicated then just linebreeding versus outcrossing. You have identified the traits you want, do they exist in the bitches lines? If no, then there is no reason to try and line breed to it. If yes, where is it and why is it there (where did that dog inherit it from). That might be what you would want to "linebreed" to. You have to try to find a stud that has those traits, who's pedigree has that trait otherwise you won't get what you are looking for. My dogs have low COI % in both my breeds. I outcross to lines that have what I need but aren't that dissimilar in style to my own dogs. When I can say "That dog is so reminicent of my dog X but has a better Y" then I tend to use it I breed similar phenotypes that are not neccessarily related and get quite good predictability in my litters. And I'm happy with the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I breed similar phenotypes that are not neccessarily related and get quite good predictability in my litters. And I'm happy with the results. x2 No point line breeding to make a pedigree look nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncarter Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 It's more complicated then just linebreeding versus outcrossing.You have identified the traits you want, do they exist in the bitches lines? If no, then there is no reason to try and line breed to it. If yes, where is it and why is it there (where did that dog inherit it from). That might be what you would want to "linebreed" to. You have to try to find a stud that has those traits, who's pedigree has that trait otherwise you won't get what you are looking for. My dogs have low COI % in both my breeds. I outcross to lines that have what I need but aren't that dissimilar in style to my own dogs. When I can say "That dog is so reminicent of my dog X but has a better Y" then I tend to use it I breed similar phenotypes that are not neccessarily related and get quite good predictability in my litters. And I'm happy with the results. so do you only try to improve one or two things at a time in your breedings? How often do you do an outcross? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) so do you only try to improve one or two things at a time in your breedings? Not directed at me but IME improving one or two things at a time is a big ask. Improving one thing and keeping everything else static is a big ask sometimes, it seriously depends on the quality of the parents of course Edited January 14, 2011 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 so do you only try to improve one or two things at a time in your breedings?How often do you do an outcross? I outcross a lot. In Lowchen I have imported 2 males who are not related to my own lines for at least 6-7 generations and these 2 are vaguely related around the 5th/6th generations. I do have a really nice bitch at the moment who is linebred to my own stuff, the first time I've done it (though others have linebred to my stuff) and her parents are 3/4 cousins. She is a solidification of what I like about my lines (though COI is 5.27%) and I'll use her to mix in some new stuff. Try to pick somethings I lost, and mix try to pick up what I'm missing. Always in my mind is my ideal specimen. So the aim is to get to that. Sometimes it is about just getting 1 or 2 things from a breeding, or to try and get back something I lost when trying to gain something else. Breeding is a gamble, you win some and you lose some. You can't gain a trait if it was never there. Simply doing an outcross, linebreeding or inbreeding won't change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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