Where Is Dog Training Heading?

[poodlefan]

I used to think all dog trainers were scary nutcases. Happily, I know better, now. But some I think really are scary nutcases.

If you ever become a dog training instructor, you'll encounter a whole new kind of nutcase.. attached on occasion to the end of a dog's lead.

No thanks! I'm going to cloister myself away in academia where my every word comes with the weight of the word "doctor" behind it. Ha! No, every person with a dog is a dog expert.

One of the first things I tell handlers is that no one knows their dog better than they do. On their own dogs, they are the experts.

A higher degree in animal related field is doesn't guarantee knowledge of dogs. It certainly doesn't guarantee any knowledge about dog training. Some of the stupidist comments I've ever heard about dogs have been made by vets. I would give you Dr Wirth as a classic example. Dr Harry's training advice on occasion isn't far behind.

An immense amount of knowledge in a very restricted area doesn't equip academics to train dogs any better than it equips a sheep farmer to teach canine psychology.

That's not a better or worse analogy but an acknowledgement that knowledge comes in many different packages and you have to be damn careful to use it out of context. That goes double when any of us step outside of our own areas of knowledge. In our own areas of expertise we may be experts but once we step outside them, we may no nothing more than your average dog owner.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[Vickie]

If you ever become a dog training instructor, you'll encounter a whole new kind of nutcase.. attached on occasion to the end of a dog's lead.

I get this one all the time:

Trainer: that won't work

Me: have you tried it

Trainer: No but.. *insert excuse here*

Me: Try it my way first, if that doesn't work, we'll try something else

Trainer: Oh wow, that worked.

I think: Yep, but 5 minutes from now you'll be saying "but my dog'...

and another of my favourites

me: there is a foundation exercise that we can do to help this problem

handler: oh we've done all the foundation stuff

me: well you may not have done this one,let me show you

handler: oh yes, we've done heaps of that

me: no offence but it seems you haven't done it right or you wouldn't have this issue

handler: ok I'll practice it some more

me: um, let's have a look at what you should practice...if you have dine heaps of it & it hasn't worked, it is unlikely to work now

I see the above scenario a lot with people training from books or DVDs. They follow the steps, but often don't seem to know how to apply/use it in a training setting

[Nekhbet]

No thanks! I'm going to cloister myself away in academia where my every word comes with the weight of the word "doctor" behind it.

wow. I am so framing a screen shot of this.

[fuzzy82]

Of course there is theory involved, as with everything...but good luck to anyone who thinks it will be discussed in any detail by the average Aussie stockperson

As enlightening as this has been, I still don't really know what to expect from trainers. I was sort of starting to give up on expectations all together. I am frankly too scared to ask a trainer about anything particularly technical at least until I know them pretty well. It seems like the quickest and surest way to make an enemy of them. If I were to come into your class, would you want me to pretend I don't know anything and keep out of your way? Or would you want to know what my background was? How would you feel if I wanted to modify an exercise you set because I thought I knew how to make it more effective with my dog?

All of the classes I have gone to they say 'set your own criteria' for a lot of the exercises. Such as loose lead walking, some people only want a loose lead, some people want the dog in heel, some people don't care which side as long as the dog is next to them. For the stand in my last class I continued working on the kickback stand. The trainer was telling people to lure forward for the stand (this is a beginners class, but we are only doing it because we are new members at the club, my dog already knows all the basic stuff). She saw my dog do a kickback stand and asked me to lure forward instead, and I told her I prefer for my dog to not move forward, and the trainer just said 'ok' and that was it.

In one of our other classes the trainer wanted to teach 'leave it' by shouting 'leave' at the dogs and basically intimidate them into leaving the food alone. My puppy already knows leave it, so I told her I don't shout the cue at him, and she made me demonstrate by holding food out for him. I told him quietly and gently to 'leave it' and he did. I don't know how the trainer felt about it, but she didn't show any signs of being annoyed, and she has used my puppy to demonstrate other things since and there doesn't appear to be any hard feelings.

I am paying for the class after all, if I want to modify slightly then that is up to me. For all they know I could be there ONLY to socialise my dog and not care about the training at all.

I am about to start a dog trainer course, and if I was doing a class I would prefer people to work in a way that made sense for them and their dog.

[corvus]

No thanks! I'm going to cloister myself away in academia where my every word comes with the weight of the word "doctor" behind it.

wow. I am so framing a screen shot of this.

Yeah, that would be right. Cut out the bit that makes it clear I was being sarcastic.

Although... Let's do an experiment. When I have a doctorate in dog behaviour, let's go out with a simple couplet of conflicting statements about dogs and tell them to random people and see who believes what the doctor says and who believes what the trainer says. It would be fun!

Incidentally, anyone who wants to comment on the restrictive or broad nature of my post-graduate degree can do my PhD first and then make their comments. PF is right, a higher degree in animal behaviour does not equip someone to be a trainer, but I never said that it does. As it happens, academics aren't interested in anybody's one dog. They are interested in a population of dogs. So it does get a little old when people keep telling them they are wrong because of this one dog.

[corvus]

Oh, wait, one person would have to say both conflicting things and pretend to be a doctor sometimes and a trainer others... That takes some of the fun out of it.

[JulesP]

[Kelpie-i]

As it happens, academics aren't interested in anybody's one dog. They are interested in a population of dogs.

Excellent, does that mean no more 'my dog' stories from you about Kivi then?? Does it also mean you'll base your comments, findings and statements on all the 'population of dogs' you work with???

[m-j]

It's not a new car, they get the keys to their old car back! With just enough petrol to get home.

I would have cars that were new to me. I would be happy to drive them home in my new car/ their ex car:)

I agree with too much theory and people shut down. I have found they don't really want to know the why, just the how. I do briefly go over the why in laymans terms if I think it is necessary but not too much. I tell them knowing this stuff this will help if this happens or if you want to teach something else that I don't cover

Behaviour problems that's another story.

I am paying for the class after all, if I want to modify slightly then that is up to me.

If the exercise is being achieved I don't have an issue, unless I can see problems that may crop up with future training or learning is being made difficult for the dog.

[Nekhbet]

Yeah, that would be right. Cut out the bit that makes it clear I was being sarcastic. rolleyes.gif coffee.gif

Although... Let's do an experiment. When I have a doctorate in dog behaviour, let's go out with a simple couplet of conflicting statements about dogs and tell them to random people and see who believes what the doctor says and who believes what the trainer says. It would be fun! biggrin.gif

Incidentally, anyone who wants to comment on the restrictive or broad nature of my post-graduate degree can do my PhD first and then make their comments. PF is right, a higher degree in animal behaviour does not equip someone to be a trainer, but I never said that it does. As it happens, academics aren't interested in anybody's one dog. They are interested in a population of dogs. So it does get a little old when people keep telling them they are wrong because of this one dog.

I need to buy more frames

You need to take a few tickets off yourself - no sarcasm has been clear at all just your elitist little attitude creeping through and oh how common that is amongst people who cloister themselves in universities for so long. I had the choice to take university further but I dont want to. That is the difference. I find what I do more valuable then dry uni work. Maybe I'm just too free thinking to fit in the uni box, parrot learning isnt my thing.

How about we both go out, take the average joe's dog and give them a training demo. Let's see who they prefer, the 'trainer' or the 'doctor'. Actually let's see who they understand full stop.

Excellent, does that mean no more 'my dog' stories from you about Kivi then?? Does it also mean you'll base your comments, findings and statements on all the 'population of dogs' you work with???

But Kelpi do you not realise her dogs are the epitomy of all that is dog and all the experience through them is equivalent to working with a reasonably chunk of the canine population?

My OH wants to be a dog trainer too. It's fascinating him and now he's helping with dog classes he has really become inspired. So we're getting him a high end dog and he can learn from the best with his best buddy at his side. When he titles the dog we will see he has truely understood what we have all taught him. The man already has 3 degrees, he's not an idiot and he's truely capable of learning but in a more hands on setting. And I can tell you Corvus he already has a more human approach to helping people at dog club then those who have done pure theory. We handed him a HA/DA rottie the other day it sat there leaning against his leg wagging its tail, looking up at him with tongue lolling about like 'I wuv you' ... that man has the special touch

Edited March 22, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Vickie]

As it happens, academics aren't interested in anybody's one dog. They are interested in a population of dogs. So it does get a little old when people keep telling them they are wrong because of this one dog.

I do find this a particularly odd statement for you to make

As a group, I would say we have been given more specifics and examples of your 2 dogs' behaviours than any other dogs on this forum. You regularly give "the world according to Corvus" opinions on behaviour & learning backed up by examples of Kivi & Erik (oh & the dog you grew up with, whose name I should know, but it escapes me....penny?) It seems a pretty narrow viewpoint , and inconsistent with what you have written above, given how little you have actually done with them, and with the fact that according to you, each of them have issues which make them not quite your average dog.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Vickie