Low Drive Dogs

[JulesP]

I would need to see Daisy doing what she was actually bred to do before I classed her as low drive

[Kavik]

Oh, and huski, I think you have done a great job with Daisy - she looks great

[Kristov]

I think generally, many people begin training with the dog they have and probably didn't get their dog originally for competition potential. There is a massive difference between training a dog bred for performance than just training any dog and is much more fun to train a dog that gets the idea straight up than one that presents a struggle all the way. An unresponsive dog to novice trainers is often the reason they give up training with the belief that they are no good at it or training is too difficult with the feeling they will never make it, where in fact with a good dog, the same people will enjoy their training and can be quite good at it from the inspiration that training a more responsive dog provides.

Personally, I think a novice trainer would have the most enjoyment and learn more easily with the best dog they can aquire and provides them with more inspiration to work at it when results come a lot easier.

Well I'm a novice trainer and I have heaps of fun training my low drive dog, I find it very enjoyable.

I don't think having a high drive dog alone is enough to make training enjoyable for a handler - I know plenty of people who would be absolutely miserable training a truly high drive dog. I know novice and even experience handlers with high drive dogs who struggle with them and don't find training them fun. They struggle to get results with them. In some cases it can be like handing a leaner driver the keys to a porche before theyve learnt how to drive in the first place - it is a great car to drive if you know how to handle it.

I think a lot of dogs get written off far too easily. At the end of the day it's easy to tell someone they "should" get a higher drive dog but what is the point if that's not what they have? If I told everyone who came through our club wanting to train and/or compete with their dog not to bother because their dog isn't high drive enough we'd have hardly any members.

Out of curiousity - was the GSD in the vid you linked to yours?

I am more referring to the original post as the topic between low and high drive dogs, but what you describe at the club is people having fun with their dog which is good, everyone is learning something and getting some pleasure, but what I am getting at is if the idea is to train for competition with the best opportunity for success, a high drive dog is more suitable and easier to train.

I know the GSD's breeder. The pup went to a home in Adelaide for Schutzhund training as the breeder couldn't keep the pup as intended and train him under Victorian law. Apparantly the dog is extreme in drive but very calm and managable with the right training methods

[corvus]

I don't think anyone is suggesting Huski shouldn't bother with her dog, are they? Personally, I'd hate to see a dog like Erik in an average pet home. Seriously, he takes some very proactive management. He stayed with my mum while we were on holidays and at one point I called up and asked how it was going and she said he'd been picking on one of her dogs and she had just thought she would let them settle it amongst themselves. I was aghast! What did I tell you about being proactive?? You can't let this dog sort things out for himself! You won't like what he comes up with! You have to tell him what to do before he gets a chance to think of something. It has become a way of life for us, but only because we persisted until we got it right and discovered that our bundle of energy was a really likeable dog once he had some structure in his life. I think some dogs are a bit too much for the average dog owner. THEY have to have the drive to make it work. As Erik's breeder says, Erik probably wouldn't be popular with "low drive" people.

[Kristov]

If I walk Diesel by himself and let him off lead, he will plod along, might occasionally trot but certainly will not often run. In order to get an animated trot out of him I have to pretty much make myself exhausted in the process. I don't see that as fun or productive and I don't see the point in persisting in spending so much time training a dog that obviously does not want to do it. It's not fair on him or me. I now normally walk him with Kaos if I want him to run as he will follow Kaos. My others are a dream to train in comparison, even Zoe who is 11 now and not as active as she was when younger lights up more about a training session than Diesel does.

ETA: and because of the aggression issues I had with Zoe, I went through a period of trying various techniques with her and despite the inconsistencies (by all rights she should have the least interest considering some of the stuff I have tried!) she is still willing and loves to work.

I agree

[huski]

Not necessarily Huski, this is one example:

You have a nice focused heel on your Beagle who is low drive perhaps and the work you have done was to gain focus. With a highly driven dog that has natural focus, the same principals learned from training your Beagle will have the high drive dog jumping up in your face like a mad thing, so the heel will need a different approach. Sure you will learn from training any dog, but it doesn't mean because you can train a low drive dog that when getting a high drive dog that the same training principals apply and quite often, you basically have to begin from scratch to learn the different temperament and response.

I'm not saying the methods used will be exactly the same, but what I have learnt from having my dog and training her has given me so much that will assist with any dog I own or train. I wouldn't even know about drive if it wasn't for my beagle, that knowledge is something I can use with the next dog I get.

You said that handlers with lower drive dogs get nothing out of training that dog apart from learning they should get a higher drive dog next time. I personally think that's bullshit.

I would need to see Daisy doing what she was actually bred to do before I classed her as low drive

Compared to other beagles she would be one of if not the most driviest I've met, not just for food, but scent wise for sure. She has a very high instinct to scent so in that regard she probably isn't low drive (for the breed).

Oh, and huski, I think you have done a great job with Daisy - she looks great

Thanks that's very nice of you

I am more referring to the original post as the topic between low and high drive dogs, but what you describe at the club is people having fun with their dog which is good, everyone is learning something and getting some pleasure, but what I am getting at is if the idea is to train for competition with the best opportunity for success, a high drive dog is more suitable and easier to train.

A high drive dog is only more suitable and easier to train IF the right methods are used.

You basically said if the dog isn't a super high drive dog, don't bother training it for competition. Realistically, if only owners with WL high drive dogs competed we'd cut a massive number of competitors out of dog sports. I see people competing with dogs that aren't high drive all the time and you know what - a lot of them are thrilled with how their dogs work. They have no desire to live with or train a super high drive dog. Yet they still train and compete with a dog that isn't super high drive and have a great time.

I also agree totally with what Vickie has said in her posts - there are dogs that owners may think are low drive that have a lot more potential with the right training methods than the owners realise. If we only bother training high drive dogs a lot of dogs that could do well if trained the right way would be written off entirely.

I know the GSD's breeder. The pup went to a home in Adelaide for Schutzhund training as the breeder couldn't keep the pup as intended and train him under Victorian law. Apparantly the dog is extreme in drive but very calm and managable with the right training methods ;)

Ok, thanks. Just curious because watching the other videos of the dog it doesn't seem that extreme in it's drive. I mean, even my beagle has faster sits and downs. JMO.

Edited March 4, 2011 by huski

[JulesP]

I am more referring to the original post as the topic between low and high drive dogs, but what you describe at the club is people having fun with their dog which is good, everyone is learning something and getting some pleasure, but what I am getting at is if the idea is to train for competition with the best opportunity for success, a high drive dog is more suitable and easier to train.

I don't think the original poster was thinking about competing in Schutzhund. She stated obedience and she probably meant agility etc.

The most scary combination I have seen at dog club was the novice owners with a Malinos. That was just a time bomb waiting to go off. The dog was biting its owners leg as a puppy. There is simply no point in getting a high drive dog if you can't train it and you not going to have success if you can't train the dog.

Top handler + high drive dog = no problems

Low drive dog + anyone = various levels of frustration. Usually a super pet though.

Medium drive dog + average handler = lots of fun, titles & some wins

If you want to be competitive then I would also get a suitable breed. If you want to prove something with a different breed then fine, no worries but own it and don't whinge about the easy to train border collies beating you (sorry major annoyance of mine ).

[huski]

PMSL JulesP!! That is one thing I try never to do, use my dogs breed as an excuse for x y and z. She has beaten borders before though

[Kristov]

Not necessarily Huski, this is one example:

You have a nice focused heel on your Beagle who is low drive perhaps and the work you have done was to gain focus. With a highly driven dog that has natural focus, the same principals learned from training your Beagle will have the high drive dog jumping up in your face like a mad thing, so the heel will need a different approach. Sure you will learn from training any dog, but it doesn't mean because you can train a low drive dog that when getting a high drive dog that the same training principals apply and quite often, you basically have to begin from scratch to learn the different temperament and response.

I'm not saying the methods used will be exactly the same, but what I have learnt from having my dog and training her has given me so much that will assist with any dog I own or train. I wouldn't even know about drive if it wasn't for my beagle, that knowledge is something I can use with the next dog I get.

You said that handlers with lower drive dogs get nothing out of training that dog apart from learning they should get a higher drive dog next time. I personally think that's bullshit.

I would need to see Daisy doing what she was actually bred to do before I classed her as low drive

Compared to other beagles she would be one of if not the most driviest I've met, not just for food, but scent wise for sure. She has a very high instinct to scent so in that regard she probably isn't low drive (for the breed).

Oh, and huski, I think you have done a great job with Daisy - she looks great

Thanks that's very nice of you

I am more referring to the original post as the topic between low and high drive dogs, but what you describe at the club is people having fun with their dog which is good, everyone is learning something and getting some pleasure, but what I am getting at is if the idea is to train for competition with the best opportunity for success, a high drive dog is more suitable and easier to train.

A high drive dog is only more suitable and easier to train IF the right methods are used.

You basically said if the dog isn't a super high drive dog, don't bother training it for competition. Realistically, if only owners with WL high drive dogs competed we'd cut a massive number of competitors out of dog sports. I see people competing with dogs that aren't high drive all the time and you know what - a lot of them are thrilled with how their dogs work. They have no desire to live with or train a super high drive dog. Yet they still train and compete with a dog that isn't super high drive and have a great time.

I also agree totally with what Vickie has said in her posts - there are dogs that owners may think are low drive that have a lot more potential with the right training methods than the owners realise. If we only bother training high drive dogs a lot of dogs that could do well if trained the right way would be written off entirely.

I know the GSD's breeder. The pup went to a home in Adelaide for Schutzhund training as the breeder couldn't keep the pup as intended and train him under Victorian law. Apparantly the dog is extreme in drive but very calm and managable with the right training methods ;)

Ok, thanks. Just curious because watching the other videos of the dog it doesn't seem that extreme in it's drive. I mean, even my beagle has faster sits and downs. JMO.

If dogs assumed to be low drive are doing ok, I doub't their drive is that low. What Kavik described with one of hers sounds genuine low drive especially she has a GSD and Kelpies. Her low drive dog as she explained would be a pain to train in motivation. Perhaps Kavik can answer what benefits she gained in training her low drive dog compared with the high being in a position to provide a perspective, I haven't personally gained anything of value from low drive dogs compared with the training of higher drives???.

The GSD pup isn't in drive in the video's, he's just meandering around, ramped up is a different story

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I will have to go back and review my course notes for the SG training through the "don't wanna, don't have ta", I think the method might be described in "ruff love" too.

I admit my impossible dog - has made me learn far more about dog training and learning theory than I ever knew before, and a lot more about how to apply and use it. I always admired those people who could train killer whales to hold still for tooth exams - it's not like you could force one of those to do anything it didn't want to. But I had no idea how they did it.

Dogs that seem like mind readers and super keen to work with you - are easy to train, but accuracy might be hard, eg if you don't say exactly what you mean on the agility course, you might find them taking a few extra obstacles for you.

So high drive and low drive each have their challenges.

I just know I find the demanding dog a bit hard to live with, ie the one that can't switch off and snooze when training time is done.

My dog has decided jumping the 1m fence around the cricket oval is fun. Sigh. Is going to make the next agility training session very interesting.

[Quickasyoucan]

I think what someone said about defining drive levels being problematic is true.

For example, my understanding about the more "primitive" breeds for example basenjis being a PITA to train to hight levels is not that they are low drive but that they are difficult to focus in that being more cat like for want of a better word they would rather do what they want than what you want.

Someone might say they lacked motivation,

I watched an interesting documentary about PNG singing dogs. These are hunting dogs, I am sure they have a decent level of drive, but the scientist who was conducting an experiment by keeping one as a pet (apparently there are abuot 200 singers in captivity in US) said, you don't adapt a singer to live as a domestic pet, you adapt yourself to living with a singer.

I thought that about summed it up.

So I guess what I am trying to say is couldn't a dog have good levels of drive but bad levels of focus?

My dog has strong prey drive towards certain items and is generally pretty motivated by pretty much everything. I haven't competed with him and to be honest when he was younger some times I wished he would just relax... though I love him and his responsiveness and intelligence.

ETA I guess that is off topic since I am not a competitor but I guess I was saying drive can be a double edged sword particularly for a person who is a pet owner as well as a competitor and has a full time job and perhaps children etc, very high drive would be hard to satisfy I would imagine.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Quickasyoucan

[Jumabaar]

Its also important to consider drive threshold too- just because a dog may be harder to get into drive initially wouldn't always make them low drive.

I have a dog here who i consider to have a moderate level of drive but a higher threshold to drive than two of my others so i have had to work harder to bring that drive forward. Its also questinable as to whether or not that threshold to drive is innate in her or created by me through some poor training early on. Now that that has been rectified she is a super dog to work. She is VERY easy to live with- but so are all of my 5, despite their varying levels of drive.

What do others think about work ethic as well for trialling dogs? Do you think some dogs are naturally more precise or is this all learned and training related?

I think you just summed up Demi in regards to having a high drive threshold. On sheep she has been known to send them over the fence (her second go on them), but take her to obedience and she starts to nod off in class, even when I am going crazy to try and get her into drive. She has been described by some, incorrectly I feel as low drive, but I dont believe she is- her drive would be moderate, if I could initiate it more successfully.

I started private agility lessons with her to try and sort out her problems with some equipment, but in that environment has no drive whats so ever. In a communal class with lots going on I can get her into drive and working enthusiastically. At flyball I don't have to do anything to trigger her into drive- she has amazing focus, is very reliable to commands that at home, undistracted have a 50% rate of success.

So my job is now to try and find a method to trigger her (difficult for ME, because I have only owned dogs with a very low threshold before). I do think that I suppressed this earlier on and am now working to fix it- have started crate games and driving towards targets for food. I believe as she is now she could compete in flyball, and Obedience, but not agility because without triggering drive I am unable to fix her problems.

[corvus]

So I guess what I am trying to say is couldn't a dog have good levels of drive but bad levels of focus?

Perhaps more to the point, the 'prey drive' of a hunting dog is not as easily adapted as a reward, and they don't have the human focus that working breeds do. Plenty of focus on what they are doing. My mother has an extremely prey driven dog who is otherwise dead lazy. He is only a 10kg dog, but he tore a hole in the garage wall trying to get to a trapped possum, and he has maintained a 2 day vigil on the wood pile where he last saw a live rat, hanging around in the hated rain looking wet and miserable, but not ready to give up on the rat yet. He is insatiable when it comes to hunting. I guess many terriers are the same. Watching a rat terrier at work is a little bit disturbing and scary. They certainly don't mess around. Not exactly biddable, though. Biddable hunting dogs are a bit of an oxymoron. They have to be able to do much of their job on their own.

[Vickie]

The GSD pup isn't in drive in the video's, he's just meandering around, ramped up is a different story :D

I'm confused. The dog in the other videos is responding to commands and the handler is using in tug & a ball. What is the point of asking for all that stuff while the dog is not in drive? How & when does the dog become extreme/ramped up? Just curious

Edited March 4, 2011 by Vickie

[Kristov]

I am more referring to the original post as the topic between low and high drive dogs, but what you describe at the club is people having fun with their dog which is good, everyone is learning something and getting some pleasure, but what I am getting at is if the idea is to train for competition with the best opportunity for success, a high drive dog is more suitable and easier to train.

I don't think the original poster was thinking about competing in Schutzhund. She stated obedience and she probably meant agility etc.

The most scary combination I have seen at dog club was the novice owners with a Malinos. That was just a time bomb waiting to go off. The dog was biting its owners leg as a puppy. There is simply no point in getting a high drive dog if you can't train it and you not going to have success if you can't train the dog.

Top handler + high drive dog = no problems

Low drive dog + anyone = various levels of frustration. Usually a super pet though.

Medium drive dog + average handler = lots of fun, titles & some wins

If you want to be competitive then I would also get a suitable breed. If you want to prove something with a different breed then fine, no worries but own it and don't whinge about the easy to train border collies beating you (sorry major annoyance of mine ).

We can't work on that principal in Schutzhund having a low drive dog for novice handlers because the low driven dogs are too hard to train and can't do the work required. They join the club as a novice with a high drive dog to learn how to handle and train their dog. I agree there is no point getting a high drive dog if you can't train it, but isn't that why they join the club to learn???. I have never seen a novice high drive combination fail under club instruction, and the failures are generally the low drive dogs that don't perform well enough or they give up from having an unsuitable dog. I don't see why obedience and agility is any different unless the clubs conducting those sports don't provide training tuition to the novice handlers as they do in Schutzhund.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Kristov

[Kristov]

'Quickasyoucan' date='4th Mar 2011 - 03:33 PM' post='5183275']

So I guess what I am trying to say is couldn't a dog have good levels of drive but bad levels of focus?

Yes absolutely which is often evident with dogs of thin nerve where they will work pefectly in the back yard or a familiar field but taking them into a different environment with higher distraction levels, much of the focus goes out the window.

[Kristov]

The GSD pup isn't in drive in the video's, he's just meandering around, ramped up is a different story

I'm confused. The dog in the other videos is responding to commands and the handler is using in tug & a ball. What is the point of asking for all that stuff while the dog is not in drive? How & when does the dog become extreme/ramped up? Just curious

The dog in the video is in a low drive state, but yes it is working in drive essentially which is correct. If the dog is teased on a back tie to heighten the drive and build aggression from frustration then released, the intensity level is much higher and faster. Here is the same dog ramped up in heightened drive playing ball in comparison to a simple command and release catch as shown in the video.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Kristov

[Vickie]

The dog in the video is in a low drive state, but yes it is working in drive essentially which is correct. If the dog is teased on a back tie to heighten the drive and build aggression from frustration then released, the intensity level is much higher and faster.

thanks for that, so can you explain the theory of this a bit more? Why would you sometimes want a dog responding to commands in low/medium drive & other times in high drive for the same commands? Is this a schutzhund technique?

I also notice that the dog trots away with the ball...would you want/expect the same when the dog is in a higher drive? Do you work your own dogs on the same commands in both low & high drive?

Sorry, so many questions, I'm always keen to learn new techniques & the theories behind them

Edited March 4, 2011 by Vickie

[Kristov]

The dog in the video is in a low drive state, but yes it is working in drive essentially which is correct. If the dog is teased on a back tie to heighten the drive and build aggression from frustration then released, the intensity level is much higher and faster.

thanks for that, so can you explain the theory of this a bit more? Why would you sometimes want a dog responding to commands in low/medium drive & other times in high drive for the same commands? Is this a schutzhund technique?

I also notice that the dog trots away with the ball...would you want/expect the same when the dog is in a higher drive? Do you work your own dogs on the same commands in both low & high drive?

Sorry, so many questions, I'm always keen to learn new techniques & the theories behind them

The medium low drive training with dogs with a high levels of prey drive is to suppress the drive to gain obedience, otherwise through puppyhood, they can easily develop into complete nut cases at the sight of a prey item with no self control so ideally, it's good to be able to turn the drive up and down to the level required for the particular task. The dog trots off after claiming the prey (ball) in an act of possession as he had to work to win it, so you let him have it then train him to bring it back and game starts over as the chase and capture is the satisfying enjoyable component for the dog, the reward for the work done. I use the same commands from low to high drive routines basically which are all based on marker words, command and release for reward. by speeding up the routine and teasing the dog before release for reward elevates drive. Tone and pitch of voice can also elevate and suppress drive also.

[Kavik]

I have never seen a novice high drive combination fail under club instruction, and the failures are generally the low drive dogs that don't perform well enough or they give up from having an unsuitable dog. I don't see why obedience and agility is any different unless the clubs conducting those sports don't provide training tuition to the novice handlers as they do in Schutzhund.

In agility I have seen experienced handlers who have done very well with a different breed decide that to be more competitive they needed a Border Collie, but haven't yet figured out how to handle their Border Collie as well as they handled their other breed, as well as novice handlers with driven dogs who struggle with control.