Dogs And Concepts Of Time

[koalathebear]

I've read conflicting things about whether dogs have a concept of time. This article is interesting. Some snippets:

In his studies on how animals perceive time, animal cognition researcher William Roberts made some remarkable conclusions regarding animal memories, anticipation and more. He says that animals are "stuck in time" [source: Roberts]. By this he means that, without the sophisticated abilities it takes to perceive time -- like truly forming memories -- animals only live in the present. Roberts thinks animals are "stuck in time" because they can't mentally "time travel" backward and forward. Humans can consciously and willfully think back to specific memories and anticipate events. Animals cannot.

To many, this seems like a fallacious theory. After all, can't we train animals? And doesn't this training depend on the animals' own memories?

Not necessarily -- at least not in the way we usually think of memories, according to Roberts. Animals might be trained to do things in the same way young children are trained to do things. According to studies on children, by the age of four, kids have learned lots of things -- crawling, walking -- but without the mental ability to remember where or how they learned them [source: O'Neil]. In other words, they don't have the power of episodic memory, or the ability to remember particular events in the past. A dog can know how to respond to the command "sit" without having a memory of the specific event in which it learned that command.

Then the article says:

That's not all that's at work in the dog's brain to help it, for example, impeccably predict the arrival of its owner. Internal biological rhythms also play their part, according to Roberts. Researchers have discovered from experiments on pigeons that an "internal clock" allowed them to learn when and where food would be available [source: Saksida]. Similarly, dogs might use circadian oscillators -- daily fluctuations of hormones, body temperature and neural activity -- to know when food is likely to hit the bowl or when owners are likely to return from work. Instead of remembering how much time passes between meals or what time meals are given, dogs react to a biological state they reach at a particular time of day. And they react the same way at the same time every day to this stimulus

All very interesting - although humans also lose track of days/time when isolated from external stimulae and events and we do also rely on other cues.

I often feel like my dogs can 'tell the time'. Just a couple of things. OH says that Elbie goes looking for me if I'm late from work. He will wait by the door and seems to know that the 'time' for home time has been and gone. I used to think that Hoover knows it is time for bed because I went up the stairs to the bedroom, but there have been a few times when I haven't gone upstairs yet because I've been delayed by this and that he has trotted up the stairs of his own volition and put himself to bed in his crate instead of just staying curled up and asleep on one of dog beds in the study

For other things, it's not a 'time' thing but behaviour, for instance, Elbie knows that we feed him after we have eaten so when he sees us finishing up our meal, he will trot up in the expectation that he will be fed soon.

Does anyone have any examples of their dogs being able to 'tell the time'?

Edited March 18, 2011 by koalathebear

[MolassesLass]

Does anyone have any examples of their dogs being able to 'tell the time'?

My dogs know when it's dinner time, they start hassling 30 minutes before the set time but don't get really excited until right on time. But! I don't think it is about "time"; they have been conditioned to the fact that the closing song of the TV show means they get fed. And with dinner, they are hungry so motivated by that to ask for dinner.

My dogs also don't know what time I get home from work but they can hear the car before my partners crappy human ears can and so they appear to know.

[Kitt]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting excerpts from the article.

My greyhound Deanna would get extremely excited if I got out of bed very early. On those days, I would take her to a friend's house so she could spend the day with another greyhound. Even when the seasons changed (so it was sometimes dark at that time of morning, and sometimes light) she seemed to know that it was "early".

And, like your dog, my dogs wait at the door when it's my typical home time.

[wagsalot]

Levi (quaker parrot) and Riley both become excitable around 6.30 when my OH gets home.

Riley starts waiting and the window, then Levi starts getting noisy.

I kinda think Riley picks up the time from the neighbours tune on the tv though, then the bird picks up on Rileys excitement.

[Aidan3]

Phew, this has the makings of a pretty deep discussion!

I have very little faith in episodic memory and I doubt adults rely on it for learning either (although clearly, recalling an event can have a big effect on your behaviour, even if you recall it incorrectly!)

I think dogs have a very poor concept of clocks. Which is very different to a very poor concept of time. Dogs seem to be able to time things just fine, watch a dog catch a ball or head off a sheep.

[W Sibs]

Dogs understand routine.

They pick up cues on certain thing going to happen eg, like opening the fridge after 9pm they know its dinner, when the tv goes off, they know it's bedtime etc.

Nothing at my home is time schedules but there is a routine at home that they both know and understand.

My dogs are fed late (after 9pm)... so if I feed them before 9pm, it doesn't hit them that this is dinner because after 9pm and they will start whinging about getting some food.

[sas]

I'm not sure if they have a concept of time or hear the vehicle from a distance away.

[koalathebear]

My dogs are fed late (after 9pm)... so if I feed them before 9pm, it doesn't hit them that this is dinner because after 9pm and they will start whinging about getting some food.

Interesting. Our two don't seem to mind when they're fed. They just know it's after us, so if we've had to feed them early or late, that's that - admittedly, they've never whinged for food so I wouldn't actually know if they were demanding dinner or not

I suppose what I'm reading is consistent with the notion that dogs have poor "real memory" but long associative memory. Nothing to do with the ability to tell the time from a clock - although Elbie does run into the kitchen to monitor the stove when the timer goes off

I'm not sure if they have a concept of time or hear the vehicle from a distance away.

No vehicle. There have been times when I've come home by bus a few hours late and walked down our road on foot. OH says Elbie's been monitoring the doorway for several hours. Perhaps not sitting there, but clearly checking back regularly. They also do have very good hearing and when we pull up into the drive they're always waiting patiently

Edited March 18, 2011 by koalathebear

[Guest RANDCMOORE31]

My dogs would wait at the window from 4.30pm - waiting for the bus that would bring me home from work. As buses travel along the road all day - I don't think it's the sound of the bus that prompted the waiting.

Likewise, my maltese would grab his toy at the usual bedtime and come and tell me it was time for bed - even if I'd made no move - or given any hint about going to bed - so I believe they have a concept of time - whether it be based on cirdadian rythym or whatever!

[Greytmate]

I don't think the two articles are conflicting, rather they are separate things.

Dogs learn by conditioning. They react to cues. There is lots of information about the different ways dogs learn in the training forum. While dogs do anticipate, I don't think they consciously think about the past. Rather a trigger or cue will set off instinct, overridden to a certain degree by whatever reaction is conditioned into the dog. The conditioned reaction is a repeating of a behaviour that has been successful for the dog in the past. It isn't necessary for the dog to think about why.

Google Pavlov's dog for a simple explanation.

The second quote is about how the dog's biology provides some internal cues and triggers for behaviour.

Dogs live in the moment.

[koalathebear]

I don't think the two articles are conflicting, rather they are separate things.

Dogs learn by conditioning. They react to cues. There is lots of information about the different ways dogs learn in the training forum. While dogs do anticipate, I don't think they consciously think about the past. Rather a trigger or cue will set off instinct, overridden to a certain degree by whatever reaction is conditioned into the dog. The conditioned reaction is a repeating of a behaviour that has been successful for the dog in the past. It isn't necessary for the dog to think about why.

Google Pavlov's dog for a simple explanation.

The second quote is about how the dog's biology provides some internal cues and triggers for behaviour.

Dogs live in the moment.

Thanks. The quotes are from the same article so there shouldn't be any internal conflict in reasoning. I was referring to differing views generally about whether dogs can tell time - but didn't post links to the other articles.

As for Pavlovian classical conditioning, I agree that it does look as though dogs associate rather than remember, but if 'telling time' isn't so much about remembering things as being triggered by cues - I guess dogs manage to keep time in their own way.

[Greytmate]

We look at the clock to tell the time or maybe the sky. Dogs live in a world of sounds and smells and can get cues from things such as the rhythms of traffic noise and rhythms of nocturnal wildlife odours. Things we cannot perceive or don't bother to notice happen fairly regularly over 24 hour periods, and the dog can learn to react to cues that we would miss.

[koalathebear]

We look at the clock to tell the time or maybe the sky. Dogs live in a world of sounds and smells and can get cues from things such as the rhythms of traffic noise and rhythms of nocturnal wildlife odours. Things we cannot perceive or don't bother to notice happen fairly regularly over 24 hour periods, and the dog can learn to react to cues that we would miss.

I guess what they have is far more accurate than a clock

[Bundyburger]

I get home at 5.45... if I'm late, by 6pm, Bundy is sitting by the window watching... he'll also run to the front door and back. He does it every time without fail. There is no set routine at home for tv or anything like that, so we aren't sure where he gets it from. Every night withotu fail, no matter what we're doing/watching they will start whinging for dinner, even though they don't get fed for half an hour. If we feed them later then boy do we know about it

[koalathebear]

Every night withotu fail, no matter what we're doing/watching they will start whinging for dinner, even though they don't get fed for half an hour. If we feed them later then boy do we know about it

I'm intrigued by this whinging around mealtimes thing - do people mean that their dogs start barking/whimpering? Our two kind of just stand there and look a bit soulful - maybe it's just that they really can't tell the time

[W Sibs]

My dogs are fed late (after 9pm)... so if I feed them before 9pm, it doesn't hit them that this is dinner because after 9pm and they will start whinging about getting some food.

Interesting. Our two don't seem to mind when they're fed. They just know it's after us, so if we've had to feed them early or late, that's that - admittedly, they've never whinged for food so I wouldn't actually know if they were demanding dinner or not

They never get any food but I think they are so use of getting fed that late that even if they aren't hungry, they will whinge because it's out of routine.

This is more so with Emmy than Charlie. Emmy LOVES her routines.

[anniek]

We do not have a daily doggy routine - I work some days, and don't others. OH gets home anytime between 6pm and 9pm.

Weekends he is home.

Some days the dogs get a quick oval walk in the morning and have an early breakfast - around 9am. Some days they do not get a morning walk and have breakfast around 8am. Some days, like today, they get to go to the beach for an hour early morning and have breakfast after their long snooze around 11am or even noon.

Some days they (or one of them) get another walk in the afternoon.

Despite all of this, they will start pacing and whining at 6:30 wanting their dinner.

I have even fed them breakfast at 3pm and still, they expect dinner by 6:30. Sometimes they get it then, sometimes not.

We live in a very quiet area - no real passing traffic, so I don't know what this 6:30pm thing is all about.

Edited March 18, 2011 by anniek

[Bundyburger]

Every night withotu fail, no matter what we're doing/watching they will start whinging for dinner, even though they don't get fed for half an hour. If we feed them later then boy do we know about it

I'm intrigued by this whinging around mealtimes thing - do people mean that their dogs start barking/whimpering? Our two kind of just stand there and look a bit soulful - maybe it's just that they really can't tell the time

Yes... the V whines.. but it's more like a squeak. The Kelpie will walk up and repeatedly shove his head under your hand/arm and stare at you.. and if ignored will whine. They will keep it up for half an hour.... If it gets longer than half an hour, the V will lie on top of me looking miserable and whine and drool

[stormie]

Orbit's concept of time is a bit crap

He generally gets fed about 4-430pm weekdays which is when we get home, but weekends, he commonly starts staring at me anytime from 1pm onwards. Staring eventually moves right in front of my face and if that's still ignored, he'll just come and stand on me. Very annoying.

He does start to get a bit antsy from about 230pm weekdays (he comes to work) though and seems to knows it's almost time to go home. Mind you he had a sleep over here last night and when I got to work this morning and let him in to say hello, he seemed confused as to why we weren't going home. So I don't think he really knows much about time - for him it's more of 'I've been here a long time, must be home time' or 'I'm hungry - it must be dinner time'.

Edited March 18, 2011 by stormie

[corvus]

There have been some recent papers that suggest some animals may have episodic memory and supposedly some species can mentally time travel. If I remember correctly it was focused on caching species like squirrels and corvids.

Erik is very attuned to imminent meal cues. He doesn't need an internal clock to know it's dinner time.

There was an interesting discussion about this on Patricia McConnell's blog recently, www.theotherendoftheleash.com