BC Love Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) Hi Sorry in advance - this is a little long!! I have a 15 week old Border Collie (Roy) who since we have had him have started our own training/socialization ect. We have lots of people of many ages around, and take him with us when we can ect. We have clicker trained him from the first week and he knows lots of commands and tricks. We also have been training him to "loose leash" walk - all positive ect and Ive been happy with how he has been going. Any way, I went to a formal puppy training class yesterday for the first time at our local dog club, and he did pretty well. Im a bit concerned though that their methods and mine are a little conflicting (I know Im not a professional lol - but I think he has been responding well to the positive reinforcement training we have been doing with him). To give you the main example - part of the deal to start the class is you get a collar for your pup - its one of those ones that are leather most of the way and have a small section of like a check chain. So now we go from me letting him have a little lead out in front of me (a step or 2 - the lead is not very long) as long as the leash stays loose Im happy, to now keeping him right at my side where he pulls like a crazy boy and I have to correct him with the chain - Im getting confused and he is too lol!! I guess Im trying to work out which is the best way? I guess even though the loose leash was a bit of work (a lot of stopping if he is in a silly mood!!) but the walk it self seemed alot more relaxed and happy. This morning when I took him out (for about 10 minutes) he was straining against the lead the whole time and it wasnt very comfortable - will he get used to this method or do I go back to my way???? Argh - so confused!! Edited July 17, 2011 by BC Love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 If you're happy with your results, keep doing what you're doing. Easy. Having said that, it can be handy to have your dog know how to do several "types" of leash walking. Although my girl is generally allowed out in front of me when I'm walking her, so long as she doesn't pull, it's also handy in some situations to be able to have her come back to my side on cue and walk right beside me. Both are useful skills for the dog to know. Howvever this is certainly not something I'd expect a 15 week old puppy to learn or know. At that age, getting a loose leash walk is an achievement. I certainly wouldn't be using a correction collar at that age (although the martingale collar you describe doesn't need to be used for leash corrections, it can just be useful to stop a pup wiggling out of the collar backwards). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Love Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Thankyou Staranais. I guess I feel the two methods are so different - when he is by my side pulling so there is constant tension - the exact opposite of what I have taught him with the loose leash walking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murve Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Thankyou Staranais. I guess I feel the two methods are so different - when he is by my side pulling so there is constant tension - the exact opposite of what I have taught him with the loose leash walking Hi BC love have you tried having a treat in your left hand & holding it right next to your left leg while walking, with holding your pups attention saying to him "heel" "good heel" & let the pup have the treat while walking, do this a couple of times a day 5min's or so, while the whole time the lead is in your right hand about waist height. Oh would be good to have a treat pouch on if you dont want crummy left over treats in your pockets :D You can try this even off lead around the house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 There is formal heeling, where your dog trots on your left hand side and stays there, and then Loose lead walking. Which for me basically means my dog can walk anywhere he walks as long as there is never any tension on the leash. A heel is really great for a dog to know and can be super useful in a lot of situations. Example being, I was walking my boy Riddick down the road and a dog was coming towards us off leash with its owner, the dog went ballistic when it saw Riddick and he was a little unsure. I called him into a heel and he jumped to my side and focused 100% on me, completely relaxing and ignoring the other dog. When teaching a heel I wouldn't be forcing him into the position with a martingale collar and a tight leash, you're just going to create tension and exactly what you described. He'll be pulling on the leash and just super confused by whats going on. Have a entire handful of tasty delicious treats in your hand and basically continuously shovel them into his mouth while hes on your side. You want to make that area on your left a really fun awesome place to be. (Even when I walk Riddick loose leash, he tends to hang around my left side just because of how much I have reinforced it) You can do this while you're around the house also. Any time he comes up an walks next to you on that side, mark the action with something like "Yes!" or "Good boy!!". and give him a treat or throw a toy, or even give him a pat. Anything to reinforce that being on you left side is a really good place to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gspsplease Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 When obedience clubs started in Australia, heeling was the only type of on lead (and off lead) work taught, since it was a requirement of the obedience trial ring. And the method used was the jerking correction and some praise when the dog was at heel. The result was that the thousands of dogs who attended dog training clubs for the past 50 years could heel when required but most still pulled their owners around the block unless the owner concentrated on keeping the dog at heel the whole time -- not relaxing for dog or owner. Modern thinking is that the dog should be able to walk on a loose lead, even ahead of the owner, sniff the ground etc and generally enjoy a "pleasure walk" since that is most dogs only way of exploring the world. So I would keep on with your loose lead walking, using the stopping method when the lead is tight, and both of you should enjoy the walk. As others have commented, heeling is useful -- eg when crossing the road -- you can't stop in the middle of the road if the dog is pulling. Rather than jerking or tightening the lead, I agree that you can use food treats to reward your dog when he is in a close heeling position, at first almost constantly, then every 5 steps, then every 10 steps, until he can heel for a reasonable distance. Like any exercise, find a use for heeling and you will then be more inclined to practise it and develop as much proficiency as YOU require --not anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I think that every dog should be taught to heel properly for control purposes, but mostly it gives them a sense of awareness while loose lead walking. Nothing worse than tripping over your dog every time you want to turn left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Personally I'd never teach a dog a formal heel with a correction collar and holding them in position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oskar & Zsa Zsa Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I will probably get flamed for agreeing, but, I also am not a fan of corection collars. I have never had to use one in over 35 years of being around dogs and feel no need to start now. I hate even having to have mine in a collar at all. I would hate to have to have one around my neck all day every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Thankyou Staranais. I guess I feel the two methods are so different - when he is by my side pulling so there is constant tension - the exact opposite of what I have taught him with the loose leash walking If he's pulling, he's not learning anything, except possibly that pulling works to get him places. And that's pretty much exactly the opposite of what you want him to learn, right? I'd personally stick to working on the loose leash walking at your stage, and teach a by-my-side walk later on with positive methods. Being able to call your dog back to walk beside you, on or off leash, is tremendously useful in many situations. I have nothing against correction collars when used appropriately, but they're neither needed or useful in a pup of your age. You don't need a formal heel unless you're planning on competing in obedience, and if so, you can teach that completely separately. There are lots of components to a formal heel (back end awareness, focus, drive) that are not necessary on a casual walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Love Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 Thank you everyone for the advice and ideas Will definitely stick with my loose leash walking - and add heel as a totally seperate command and teach him with lots of postitive reinforcement and treats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) Hi BC love, I only went to our local obedience training club once & that was because they made me put a check chain on Sonny at 16 weeks of age & the instructor told me I was too soft with him & snatched him from me & proceeded to drag him along yelping his head off !!! I was fumeing & I left in tears & never went back. I did learn one very valuable lesson from that though, you do what you think is best & works best for you & your dog. I think I was very unlucky with what happened to us but I believe their is good & bad examples in everything. I sooo wish I could find a nice obedience club around my area with trainers that had a bit of understanding. I just read heaps now & train both mine with a method that works for me, bits & pieces of everything positive. Good luck with training. Edited July 18, 2011 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 You don't need a formal heel unless you're planning on competing in obedience, and if so, you can teach that completely separately. There are lots of components to a formal heel (back end awareness, focus, drive) that are not necessary on a casual walk. ^^This LLW and formal heeling are two completely different exercises. Both need to be taught seperately and (IMO) in very different ways. Dragging your pup around on a correction collar yelling "heel, heel, HEEL" is only going to poison the command and if you decide you want to teach a nice competition heel later on down the track then you may have to re-train it. What do you want out of your dog? Do you plan on trialling later on or do you just want a well behaved pet? You could always try discussing your aims with the instructor and/or working your dog on the outside of the class until you are ready to join. (Though sadly plenty of clubs take the my way or the highway approach unfortuantely). It sounds like what you are doing (at home) is working out nicely for you though? If so keep at it, working on slowly adding higher and higher levels of distraction and duration before taking it back to class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Love Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 Oh BC Crazy - what a terrible experience for you and you dog!! I would be horrified!! SecretKei - thanks for the advice He will be first and foremost a special family pet, and I hope in the future to do some agility, maybe flyball ect. My main aim with his walking is to be able to walk him comfortably so he is a pleasure to take where ever we may be going - we have 4 kids so not many hands left for a dog pulling like crazy on a walk :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jass.91 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I only went to our local obedience training club once & that was because they made me put a check chain on Sonny at 16 weeks of age & the instructor told me I was too soft with him & snatched him from me & proceeded to drag him along yelping his head off !!! I was fumeing & I left in tears & never went back. Oh god I would be so upset too! This is horrible. I can't believe instructors - anyone really- would do this to a poor defenseless puppy Sounds like training through fear to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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