Kavik Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 No need to preach to the converted - I have used Click to Calm with my dog aggro dog with good results She is not fixed though. And actually, while Susan Garrett worked hard to harness the drive in the ways she wanted, it WAS there from birth. Her crate games and ruff love program (which is where I would start on her program with a dog with behavioural problems) are quite involved, require the dog to spend a lot of time in and out of a crate, and I think many people who have problem dogs would not be willing to go to those lengths. I think they sound like great programs for people to use with their own dogs if they so choose, including those with behavioural problems, but they are not for everyone. And will not work for every person's circumstances or all dogs. I have other family members with dogs. I can guarantee you that none of them would be willing to go to those lengths for behavioural problems. I suggested a fairly seemingly simple idea of keeping a problem dog confined to a smaller part of house or on a lead and teaching the dog to give items and get off items to my mum (for a dog who would steal things and hide and then bite when you tried to take them away) and she thought even that was too much work. No way would she follow such an in depth program as SG suggests and would be required for this particular dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Ruff lough is almost impossible if you work full-time - I'm not willing to have my dog crated for 12 hours. Sensory deprivation IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullyisious Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I honestly dont know why people come on a "Support prong Collars" Thread and preach about how they dont support prong collars. She didnt ask DO YOU SUPPORT THEM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 There is nothing wrong with people giving an alternate opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Yes sorry guys you are right there was drive at birth (even low drive dogs have drive) but what I meant to say was that she has fostered it to be how she wants it (I'm not articulating myself very well here, sorry). For example she has used her dog Decaff as an example a few times now in her recallers course who was a dog that was not high drive to begin with. This is definately something she has fostered and worked with. Ruff Luv has also been very misinterpreted and Susan has admitted this multiple times. I also heard her interpretation of it and it is no where near as restrictive as it reads in the book. I wish she would re-release the book with more explanation. Anyway I have taken this topic a bit OT so back to the original topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm happy for anyone to comment in this thread or the FB page with any view as long as they are prepared to discuss it. It's a open forum hence why I posted it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I couldn't care less if prong collars are or are not banned in other countries. I care about what is going on in my own backyard. The fact of the matter is that prong collars are not easily accessable or overly abused in this country and IMO banning what can be a very effective (not to mention gentle) tool in the right hands is just plain and utter stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I honestly dont know why people come on a "Support prong Collars" Thread and preach about how they dont support prong collars. She didnt ask DO YOU SUPPORT THEM? I'm not sure why you posted a reply that added absolutely nothing to the topic we're discussing whether for or against either but hey it's a forum so I expect there to be discussion and alternative points of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Ruff lough is almost impossible if you work full-time - I'm not willing to have my dog crated for 12 hours. Sensory deprivation IMO. Sadly, this is true. You can take elements of it and use them to your advantage, but it would be VERY hard to implement without quite a bit of time. I think this goes for most training that avoids physical correction though. It is easier and quicker to train a dog with no real history of learning using aversives initially and this is what most dog owners want. (OMG, this person came over and within an hour my dog was a different animal.) Much as I don't like them (or any collar that is used to actively correct behaviour) and wouldn't personally use them I can see benefits in the availability and qulaified use of them. I'd rather see a dog controlled with a prong collar than out of control and fed a continuous flow of treats from a trainer with limited ability to change their behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Ruff Luv has also been very misinterpreted and Susan has admitted this multiple times. I also heard her interpretation of it and it is no where near as restrictive as it reads in the book. I wish she would re-release the book with more explanation. Agree, but after working with Linda Orton-Hill for a week I have to say it is too restrictive for most people who work full time. We had to significantly change some elements to get them to work for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 kiesha It is the very important foundation work that SG does (and there is a lot of it to be successful in any field) that is missing in dogs with behavioural problems. You only realise how important it is and how much work you have done when you try to help people who have not done it. Not everyone is prepared to go to the same lengths in dog training. While some our lives revolve around dog training (mine included ) not everyone has that same passion. She did have to work hard with decaff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 The point is that how can we, in Australia, allow our government to ban the use of a tool that has no proof or evidence of causing pain or harm? Is there any evidence that they don't cause pain or harm? I've never seen any evidence for or against prong collars in all my literary wanderings. There are some people out there working with very challenging dogs that don't ever speak of them except to lump them into an "aversive training tools" category. Head collars, yes. CAT, BAT, counter-conditioning, desensitisation, even full body restraint. I've only ever found one study that examined the effect of prong collars (http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=992370272&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=992370272.pdf and it concluded that they were more distressing to dogs during police dog training than electronic collars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) Prong collars are legal to sell and buy, but not to use. Go figure. E-collars are allowed to be used by a few people with specialised training for training specific types of hunting dogs. So as good as banned. The information I found stated that they are banned in official competition not for general use. The info you found is wrong. I am Norwegian, I know the rules. Perhaps you yourseld mis-understood the rules. I googled them just before I posted, to make sure they hadn't changed. The info you found is wrong. I am Norwegian, I know the rules. I'm sure you appreciate that it's not easy to find information on these laws - I've been searching all afternoon and haven't found anything to support prong collars being 100% illegal in the countries mentioned. I'm not saying you are wrong, but the information is not readily available or easy to access. Anyway - as per my previous post. Whether prongs are banned in places outside of VIC is quite irrelevant to the big picture. Sorry, didn't mean to sound harsh. I do understand that it's difficult to find info on it, as I googled the same thing last night and found nothing. Earlier today I googled in Norwegian and found more useful info. Edited August 5, 2011 by fuzzy82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 It comes down to how you use them. If you are heavy handed with any correctional tool it will cause a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) The point is that how can we, in Australia, allow our government to ban the use of a tool that has no proof or evidence of causing pain or harm? Is there any evidence that they don't cause pain or harm? I've never seen any evidence for or against prong collars in all my literary wanderings. There are some people out there working with very challenging dogs that don't ever speak of them except to lump them into an "aversive training tools" category. Head collars, yes. CAT, BAT, counter-conditioning, desensitisation, even full body restraint. I've only ever found one study that examined the effect of prong collars (http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=992370272&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=992370272.pdf and it concluded that they were more distressing to dogs during police dog training than electronic collars. Yes I've seen that report before too. It doesn't surprise me that e-collars are less aversive, IMO they can be one of if not the most gentle and least aversive tool out there. I find it's a bit of a round-about argument. If they caused pain and harm as obviously as anti-prong collar advocates would have us believe, why is the proof and evidence not out there, easy and readily available to find? Is that like saying someone is guilty until proven innocent? Edited August 5, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) The APDT rejected my membership on the basis that I publicly campaigned for our current Victorian Law (which bans the use of the PPCollar aka "pinch" collar) to be changed to allow (at least with restrictions) the use of the PPCollar in the training of dogs and that I support the good use of the e-collar (which I could go on to discuss but that's not the point of this thread so will leave it there). APDT sent an A4 letter to every MP in Australia, which letter basically condensed to read that it did not approve of the PPCollar. It referenced to a book put out by the American Humane Society called "Guide to Humane Dog Training". This to those who read their letter would suggest that the American Humane Society did not consider the PPCollar as a training aid to be humane, but to those who would have bothered to go to the length, breadth and trouble to purchase the book would know that it actually said "the Prong Collar is an alternate humane training restraint". For those interested, you might want to go have a casual read through this thread : PPCollar discussion And for anyone who posts here I think it would be reasonable to be asked why your stance is against the use of the PPCollar on any dog in any circumstance. It is already clear and held in writing by the Victorian Labor Government that "there is NO recorded evidence of harm" caused by the prong collar and of course many have recognised the very good use of it (even in cases compared to the training tools heralded by those who decry the use of the PPCollar, so for anyone to make a blanket comment that they are against the use of the PPCollar, one would be excused for thinking you have a knowledgeable reason for that opinion and would most likely like to hear it.) It is not a collar that is best for every dog (although in my experience it suits a greater % than I have seen by comparison to the eg. head collar) but that should not be sufficient enough reason to prescribe a total ban. Edited August 5, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 The point is that how can we, in Australia, allow our government to ban the use of a tool that has no proof or evidence of causing pain or harm? Is there any evidence that they don't cause pain or harm? I've never seen any evidence for or against prong collars in all my literary wanderings. There are some people out there working with very challenging dogs that don't ever speak of them except to lump them into an "aversive training tools" category. Head collars, yes. CAT, BAT, counter-conditioning, desensitisation, even full body restraint. I've only ever found one study that examined the effect of prong collars (http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=992370272&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=992370272.pdf and it concluded that they were more distressing to dogs during police dog training than electronic collars. Yes I've seen that report before too. It doesn't surprise me that e-collars are less aversive, IMO they can be one of if not the most gentle and least aversive tool out there. I find it's a bit of a round-about argument. If they caused pain and harm as obviously as anti-prong collar advocates would have us believe, why is the proof and evidence not out there, easy and readily available to find? Is that like saying someone is guilty until proven innocent? I agree, if I was given a choice of check chain, prong collar and e-collar, I would pick e-collar any day. I don't know what "proof" you want that a prong collar is painful though. Isn't it obvious that when used to give corrections it would be painful? How else would it work? How would you prove how painful something is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 fuzzy, Have you tried a prong collar on yourself? When I first saw them I was like NO WAY! but was persuaded to try it and compare to the check chain on myself, and really they feel very different and prong collars do not leave the stinging sensation that check chains do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Any tool is capable of causing harm to a dog if an idiot is attached to the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) They could measure the cortisol levels in the blood - before, during and after a correction. Cortisol levels rise when very stressed. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on physical punishment, but there are other forms of "punishment" that are a lot more cruel - exclusion being one of them. Not every dog is a delicate flower that is going to be harmed by the use of a prong collar (along with lots of positive re-inforcement) - Zero is living proof of that. Edited August 5, 2011 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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