Retrieving

[paddles]

My 5 and 6 yr old shelties are being very resistant to retrieval training, with food rewards, I have got them going up to the dumbell, but they will not pick it up, or if I put it in thier mouths (Again food taught them to open thier mouths and briefly mouth the bar) will not hold the dumbbell, they just drop it, repeated methods have not been making any progress. I'm at a loss for what to do now.

[PAX]

I suggest you go to tricks of the week and "toilet duck" has some info on how to teach your dog to retrieve. There is a link there for Shirley chongs keepers retrieve, I have taught my dog using this method with great sucsess and also some of my friends have.

good luck

Lisa

[CAL]

What are you using to mark the reward? A clicker or just voice. Clickers are much more accurate, and your dogs may be confused about what they are being rewarded for. Get a book on clicker training or attend a class or seminar.

[paddles]

What are you using to mark the reward? A clicker or just voice. Clickers are much more accurate, and your dogs may be confused about what they are being rewarded for. Get a book on clicker training or attend a class or seminar.

Food

[pawsaroundoz]

Hi Paddles

People who do retrieving as their sport tend to teach a reliable 'take/hold/give' before ever sending the dogs out to do a 'fetch'

Break it down to tiny little bite sized pieces for your shelties.

Teach them to take the dumbell - then to 'hold', slowly lengthening this excersize and when they will 'hold' well, take a tiny step back, then 'give'. Then you can start moving back very slowly and call them too you.....the whole process is slow but make sure your shelties are 'winning' the whole way through!

Annie and Carlin

[paddles]

Yes, I agree, with the take, hold etc, but I guess my question is, How do I teach them to hold? they will put thier mouth around the bar, but will not either pick it up, or hold it if I let go of it when they are sitting, they just let it drop

[EddyAnne]

Yes, I agree, with the take, hold etc, but I guess my question is, How do I teach them to hold? they will put thier mouth around the bar, but will not either pick it up, or hold it if I let go of it when they are sitting, they just let it drop

G'day, Eddy here.

Does your dog already pick up and hold a tug-o-war toy, a chew toy, or a chew hide, or a piece of lambswool, or a biscuit, or a bone, if so then consider using that item as an earlier stage of training for the dumbbell. To get the dog to give that item to you simply give them something much better, say some freshly cooked roast chicken, liver treats or whatever. Start with the dog grabbing for and holding for a slit second then gradually extend the hold time before you take and treat, and later when the dog knows what you want plus also know that they will be given a reward then you swap to using the dumbbell. I'm sure your training instructor could devise a training program around this method or some other positive method of which could also include using Clicker.

[paddles]

Unfortunately they don't play any games like that, it was something that I discouraged when they were pups to avoid conflict between them and the kids. they assume that anything in thier mouth is mine and drop it, (I think that that is how they are thinking anyway.

[EddyAnne]

G'day, Eddy here.

Well paddles we all have our reasons for doing what we do. With my little doggies they had their toys to hold and play with and their food to hold and eat, and my children and I had our things, and we all knew which things belonged to who this in what I taught them as they grew up.

Well I encouraged my little doggies to play with their toys and to hold and eat their food. Guess what one of the toys was that I used to train dumbbell retrieves with this little doggie, and here we are playing tug-o-war and when I let go the doggie wanted to continue the game so would hand me the toy back, and another little dog in a similar fashion retrieved dog biscuits and chew hides where these were placed in my hand so they can continue getting something much better from me in freshly cooked roast chicken or ham.

[sidoney]

You know, you can teach a dog to play, even if you think it won't, my now 8 year old wouldn't tug (I hadn't realised the importance of play when she was young), she'd go, oh you can have it. Well started to get her tugging about 12 months ago (even went to a tug workshop), and despite irregular practice she tugs like a demon now, at home anyway - we are working (irregularly ) on the tug away from home.

If she won't play or tug or take with a normal object, try a turkey neck wrapped in cloth, or a neck or a wing just by itself, let her have it when she puts a little pressure on it, build it up like that. You have to let them know it's OK to do it.

BTW Eddy I looove that pic, oh and I visited your website, I like your Cavs a lot, and adore that piccy of Cherrie with her fluffy.

Edited March 27, 2005 by sidoney

[EddyAnne]

BTW Eddy I looove that pic, oh and I visited your website, I like your Cavs a lot, and adore that piccy of Cherrie with her fluffy.

G'day, Eddy here.

Yep her "fluffy" as in lambswool was another toys that I used to train dumbbell retrieves. The lambswool had to be replaced now and then as she also loved chewing it, but then that's great as the chewing on the lambswool helped to keep her teeth clean particularly between her teeth as the fibres acted like dental floss. Good thing about lambswool, well you can train a lambswool retrieve then later wrap the lambswool around the shaft of the dumbbell and do retrieves with that, then later the lambwool could gradually disappear just leaving the dumbbell.

By the way, if the "tug workshop" was near me I'd love to go, and if I picked up even just one bit of information that could help me and my doggies then it certainly would be worth it. Yes I do using tugging to train some dogs for dumbbell retrieving, even use tugging to train some dogs for stays. But then for some other dogs I may use something different depending on what they prefer and how they would like to be trained. And gees if a dog prefers to retrieve dog biscuits for pieces of chicken or ham, well I'll even use that if that's the way the dog likes to be trained.

[paddles]

I don't think that I really want to teach them to tug, although the method sounds sound, as such, its not really me, there must be some other way to get them to hold the bar, Or anything for that matter, (Oh, I tried the chicken neck thing, and the moment i shifted she just dropped it) they were both really hesitant to take it too, although they do recieve bones etc on a regular basis, and they do play tug of war with each other, they are both completely submissive to me. (The trainers at the new obediance club I now attend are trying to retrain me, (No such thing as a bad dog, only bad handlers) but I am slow in learning these new methods.

[Kavik]

You could try clicker training interest in the dumbell maybe. Although it can be difficult with some dogs and frustrating. Diesel caught on quickly, but Zoe who I had trained with different methods would not catch on. The dumbell would be there for ages, and she showed no interest in it whatsoever!

I ended up sort of cheating to get her to get it in the end - I put the food behind the dumbell, so she had to reach across the dumbell to get the food. Eventually she had to put her mouth over the dumbell to get the reward, then hold it etc (she already knew hold, but would not reach for it). To get her to pick it up off the ground I had to hold the food under the dumbell LOL! (I couldn't just put it on the ground as she would push the dumbell away). She now will retrieve happily without any food (Except for the reward at the end after she brings it back and I take it off her).

[paddles]

thats how I got them to mouth the bar, put the food over (Meat paste) and learnt theat shelties have amazing toungues, then used treats behind the bar, that worked but I can't seem to get them to hang on to anything (Tried bones etc,) they just drop them if i am anywhere near (They must carry them at some stage because they bury them all over the place, just not when I'm around.) this is really frustrating and I'm at a loss on how to retrain them. I work with them daily, mostly just a little (5 Min) obediance, and I would really like to be able to teach them to retrieve, I accept that the fault is mine (I've never managed to teach a dog to retrieve) but feel that there must be a way around this problem.

[PAX]

Dear Paddles,

Did you look at the site i suggested

www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

If you take your time and dont rush, just follow the steps you should have sucsess

[paddles]

Ok, sounds good, have never used a clicker before, might have to look into it a bit more, will talk to the instructor at obediance, and read up a bit.

[PAX]

I had never used a clicker either until i found this site. I had been trying to teach my dogs to retrieve with no sucsess using traditional methods and they were just totally confused.

I bought a clicker and tried it. The first thing you have to teach your dog is that click means food, this is the best part for the dogs as you have to do lots of clicking and treating and they dont have to do anything. If your dog is a food hound this is very easy and they learn it super fast.

A lot of people where i train frown upon clickers and until this i didnt understand the benefits but now i am converted. I dont use them for all training but they are great for training specific bahaviours.

Once your dog is fully trained in the retrieve it becomes its own reward and they just love this new game.

[EddyAnne]

G'day, Eddy here.

Yes Clicker can be used to train dumbbell retrieves plus also used to train any other Obedience exercise, and gees I even use Clicker and so does my wife.

Clicker certainly does work very effectively and so does using food or toy luring and even using various playful games. Irrespective of what you choose it does take time and effort to learn and to develop effective training skills when applying to the dog, this later point is where most have difficulty. Simply choose whatever best suites your dog and also suites you, and also what best suites specifically what's being trained and this in relation to your dog. In this later point as an example, some beginners using food or toy luring could already have their dogs sitting, dropping and heeling, this well before some other beginners with clickers have even started clicker training their dog, and this similarly can happen with some beginners even with training dumbbell retrieves.

When training I may decide to use clicker, or luring or games, and I may use these in combination or independently. When using combinations of methods whether simultaneously or independently one must be quite fluent and skilled with each plus have a good training plan.

In this latter "independently" I mean one could use luring to train the "go into the box, turn and sit" this say with the trainer next to the box and luring the dog, then when this has been achieved in the next stage of training switch to using clicker to extend the distance to the box but where the marked event is when the dog sits in the box this as already learnt in the previous stage with luring.

By the way, when it comes to training for Obedience Trialling and whatever methods are used, most seem to have difficulty through the stage of Random Reinforcement, yep even most Clicker trainers.

[paddles]

Well, after reading up on that website, and having a play with dogs and Dumbell, I'm off to buy a dumbel that doesn't roll! theory looks good, I'll have a play and let you know in a week or so if I make any progress, (If any!) I don't know weather I'll actually try a clicker, sounds a bit strange to me, and, to my mind, you always have your voice! (and in my case food) I've spoken to a few friends, and its interesting in the replys I got, Clicker training relys on good reflexes, which I don't have, so I'll stick to voice and food at this stage, I am not interested in competing, this is just for fun! And sits and drops and stands get boring after a while! (Although stand for inspection is interesting when you don't have anybody to do the inspection! LOL)

[paddles]

I am not really certain weather I actually have a problem at this stage, but wonder if it will become a problem and what would be the best way of dealling with it? my dog is now picking up the dumbell, and then droping it, now if he is close enough and I am fast enough I get my hand under the dumbell as he drops it saying give, but he doesn't seem to understand that he can hold the dumbell and walk, he picks it up and drops it repeatedly, occasionally nosing it towards me a bit. Am I moving too fast, should I go back a step? or should I just not worry and persist in waiting until he brings it close enough for me to catch? I only give treats when the dumbell end up close enough for me to grab.