Maremmas In Show.

[mixeduppup]

Great pictures, I wonder if Maremmas should be shown though? They are such a rare breed and the show dogs really look nothing like they should look in the paddock and the temperament is so misunderstood it seems. I watched the video and the commentators said they are breeding friendlier dogs. That's not what the maremmas are about.

Yes these things concern me too. Most of them look too fat to work

In fact I thought the whole testing process was mad considering what the dog is required to do when its looking after its species.

All good if its just a test when its not on its own property on leash but I somehow its a bit of a worry that the working side and temperament is being disregarded.

Exactly. I've met pyrs and Anatolians and they seem to have a more courageous temp and will not usually back away when someone greets them, even if they're not really used to socialisation. But the maremmas have a much more cautious nature and a different style of guarding, they use the backing up and barking as a protection technique and unless the individual dog has been socialised to the hilt it will always fall into its basic temperament of standoffish and cautious around strangers. I don't like the idea of the temperament being disregarded so that some stranger can feel its body and then judge it on an idea rather than its true ability.

[mixeduppup]

Ammo protecting the stick. He's very good at his job.

[zoiboy]

All this chatter about the bred not being shown at all as it is not suitable is

poppycock. Here are 2 different photo's of the same dog. He can be cleaned up and

taken to shows. Did reasonably well at that as well.

Then he is given a lamb to look after and he did that brilliantly as well.

I think that many people under estimate the inteligance of the dogs and then they

sell them short.

[mixeduppup]

All this chatter about the bred not being shown at all as it is not suitable is

poppycock. Here are 2 different photo's of the same dog. He can be cleaned up and

taken to shows. Did reasonably well at that as well.

Then he is given a lamb to look after and he did that brilliantly as well.

I think that many people under estimate the inteligance of the dogs and then they

sell them short.

Congrats on your win. :)

Protecting one lamb is very different than protecting a flock of hundreds or even thousands on a property with no human interaction.

Your boy is beautiful but too heavy set and hairy for serious maremma work imho. I don't show but have seen many working maremmas and he doesn't look like them at all. Steve and tralee may be able to correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mixeduppup

[zoiboy]

thank you, but , the win is to me at least, irrelivant really. the dog in question

was a reasonable size dog and certialy fluffed up well for showing. He was never asked to

guard on a broad acre set up so we wil never know if he would have been suitable for

that. What he did do VERY well was guard all manner of small things and the people here

from strangers.

In Italy he would be concidered a small dog and his coat was not one I would want to

reproduce personally. That said it was not the worst either.

I bought a sweet bitch years ago who was almost a year old at the time, she was a goat

dog at the time. She has sheep as well to look after. Does this really really well, also

heads to shows now and then. Her first show she was BPIS under a Canadian judge.

It's not difficult to do and as with the ASD and Pry, the dogs should be able to *tell the difference*.

It was mentioned that the *voice over bloke* at the royal mentioned that breeders have

been breeding for a *friendly* temperament. I do not think that is the case at all. I do

think that more breeders are getting better info and are breeding for stronger tempered dogs

that are far closer to correct

[mixeduppup]

My pc is playing up. This was meant to go here!

I just worry that the temp that makes the maremma will be lost so they can look like the breed but can no longer function, like so many other breeds have done.

[zoiboy]

The biggest problem the breed faces is the new found popularity

as a pet in built up area's. I made the mistake ONCE of selling

a pup into an urban setting. NEVER again. The show ring will not

be the ruin of the breed, BUT, breeders who make the choices of

what dog and bitch to breed certialy do have ability to make or break.

It should be every breeders aim to breed heathly, typical, SOUND

dogs for the market place.

[mixeduppup]

The biggest problem the breed faces is the new found popularity

as a pet in built up area's. I made the mistake ONCE of selling

a pup into an urban setting. NEVER again. The show ring will not

be the ruin of the breed, BUT, breeders who make the choices of

what dog and bitch to breed certialy do have ability to make or break.

It should be every breeders aim to breed heathly, typical, SOUND

dogs for the market place.

I hope they don't become too popular as household pets as I think it would be the end of the breed as it is.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mixeduppup

[rebelsquest]

The biggest problem the breed faces is the new found popularity

as a pet in built up area's. I made the mistake ONCE of selling

a pup into an urban setting. NEVER again. The show ring will not

be the ruin of the breed, BUT, breeders who make the choices of

what dog and bitch to breed certialy do have ability to make or break.

It should be every breeders aim to breed heathly, typical, SOUND

dogs for the market place.

[espinay2]

Protecting one lamb is very different than protecting a flock of hundreds or even thousands on a property with no human interaction.

But is that what Maremma are traditionally bred to do? I know with Pyrs they were always bred in their country of origin to work generally with a Shepherd present for a lot of the time, and flocks were never in their thousands.

My basic reading on Maremma in their country of origin had given me the impression that they were very similar in this respect

Use on large 'range' style setups is largely a modern adaption and very different from their original purpose and use in many ways (and is largely thanks to the Coppingers in the US).

In Pyrs at least, the misinformation that the dogs work in this way is one that breeders inmany countries (though the US and Australia in particular where the Coppingers have had the most impact) have been largely trying to re-educate about.

Did I post these video's earlier? Worth a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=67ObjymUif8

While no Pyrs in this video (only the little Pyrenean Shepherds), it shows well the type of situation a Pyr at least would be living in traditionally:

These from Italy are interesting:

Edited April 7, 2013 by espinay2

[mixeduppup]

From my reading and info gathered, maremmas were left on the hillside to protect the flock largely by themselves. I know friends who have a couple of dogs on 1000 acres or so with sheep in the hundreds that are fed with an automatic feed and only ever see people every week or so.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mixeduppup

[rebelsquest]

From my reading and info gathered, maremmas were left on the hillside to protect the flock largely by themselves. I know friends who have a couple of dogs on 1000 acres or so with sheep in the hundreds that are fed with an automatic feed and only ever see people every week or so.

If you trawl back through this thread, I believe Tralee posted somewhere about the Maremma's being with their people during the night (the shepherd maybe, I don't recall, or have the inclination to go through the thread myself :D )

[mixeduppup]

From my reading and info gathered, maremmas were left on the hillside to protect the flock largely by themselves. I know friends who have a couple of dogs on 1000 acres or so with sheep in the hundreds that are fed with an automatic feed and only ever see people every week or so.

If you trawl back through this thread, I believe Tralee posted somewhere about the Maremma's being with their people during the night (the shepherd maybe, I don't recall, or have the inclination to go through the thread myself :D )

Yes they're with their owners when they're not working but when they are working they work largely alone :)

[zoiboy]

In my limited experiance in Italy the flocks all have dogs AND sheperds, or Cow herders

with them. Even when the shepherd leaves the flock it is not for days/weeks at a time.

More like hours at most.

This idea that the dogs will baby sit large flocks on even larger tracts of land is a

very new idea. The poor dog in Australia and the US are not partners to sheperds but they

are in fact the sheperds.

It is nice to see some of the relo's of my dogs in that last video Espinay :)

[mixeduppup]

In my limited experiance in Italy the flocks all have dogs AND sheperds, or Cow herders

with them. Even when the shepherd leaves the flock it is not for days/weeks at a time.

More like hours at most.

This idea that the dogs will baby sit large flocks on even larger tracts of land is a

very new idea. The poor dog in Australia and the US are not partners to sheperds but they

are in fact the sheperds.

It is nice to see some of the relo's of my dogs in that last video Espinay :)

Ok that's interesting. From what I've gleaned from hearsay and reading I was under the assumption that they were left all day and brought back at night. So we've kind of adapted the maremma to suit larger areas and larger amounts of stock protection on their own. Interesting.

[espinay2]

In my limited experiance in Italy the flocks all have dogs AND sheperds, or Cow herders

with them. Even when the shepherd leaves the flock it is not for days/weeks at a time.

More like hours at most.

This idea that the dogs will baby sit large flocks on even larger tracts of land is a

very new idea. The poor dog in Australia and the US are not partners to sheperds but they

are in fact the sheperds.

It is nice to see some of the relo's of my dogs in that last video Espinay :)

Ok that's interesting. From what I've gleaned from hearsay and reading I was under the assumption that they were left all day and brought back at night. So we've kind of adapted the maremma to suit larger areas and larger amounts of stock protection on their own. Interesting.

Yes, as I mentioned it was a method made popular first in the US and thanks (or no thanks) largely to the work of the Coppingers. The misinformation spread from there and the myth that the dogs 'work on their own' grew when traditionally that is not how they have work at all.

Glad I found that video then Zoiboy :). I have watched it a few times before and every time enjoyed in particular the obvious relationship between the shepherd and his dog.

[mixeduppup]

In my limited experiance in Italy the flocks all have dogs AND sheperds, or Cow herders

with them. Even when the shepherd leaves the flock it is not for days/weeks at a time.

More like hours at most.

This idea that the dogs will baby sit large flocks on even larger tracts of land is a

very new idea. The poor dog in Australia and the US are not partners to sheperds but they

are in fact the sheperds.

It is nice to see some of the relo's of my dogs in that last video Espinay :)

Ok that's interesting. From what I've gleaned from hearsay and reading I was under the assumption that they were left all day and brought back at night. So we've kind of adapted the maremma to suit larger areas and larger amounts of stock protection on their own. Interesting.

Yes, as I mentioned it was a method made popular first in the US and thanks (or no thanks) largely to the work of the Coppingers. The misinformation spread from there and the myth that the dogs 'work on their own' grew when traditionally that is not how they have work at all.

Glad I found that video then Zoiboy :). I have watched it a few times before and every time enjoyed in particular the obvious relationship between the shepherd and his dog.

Well they seem to have adapted well to living and working on their own. I wonder if the Italian dogs do as well as the US and Aus dogs in that regard, or if we've created a new strain.

[espinay2]

But in that adaptation, how are they being changed from what the breed is traditionally 'meant' to be......

Edited April 7, 2013 by espinay2

[mixeduppup]

But in that adaptation, how are they being changed from what the breed is traditionally 'meant' to be......

I don't believe they've been adapted much really, just left for longer periods and perhaps become slightly more independent than their forebears. They still seem to show the same temp as the breed description.

[espinay2]

But that temp has been debated in this thread even. Is that expectation that they will work more independently than is traditional contributing to them being a dog that is more 'standoffish' ????

And to build on that , is it this type of dog that is less suited to the show ring than a dog with a 'traditional' working temperament (ie better suited to life working in partnership with shepherds)?

Edited April 7, 2013 by espinay2