Kavik Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Anybody here that has done SYCS? Here is our most recent video of our 2o2o contact training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Nice work Kavik Contacts - deciding what to do has kind of held me up... I can't see how driving down a slope and then smushing a dog's nose into the dirt (or worse, grass that dog is allergic too) is a good thing. I've got great hand targeting and I've taught mine a chin tap in a drop pos... which might do for see saw - if I can get her to not freak out when it tilts... She's fine climbing all over wobbly planks in the back yard... and it can be hard to keep her off the see saw - "look at me, I'm the king of the castle---oh $#!+"... and then she won't go near it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't think I will keep the nose touch long term (it is very difficult to keep long term anyway, even looking at SG's dogs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) yes her dogs sort of point at the ground and then look up to say "can I go now?"... I'd rather the dog stopped and looked at me... not the ground... and held until I gave the signal. I think (could be wrong) the point of the 2o2o is to manage ? excitement on the dog's part ie give it something complicated to do that makes the good contact obvious for the judge and if the complicated breaks down a bit in competition, that doesn't matter as it's 3 layers on top of what you want. I just think it's slow and possibly a bit damaging. It looks "wrong". There must be a better way. I don't know what that is but I'm sure if I keep thinking - "what is a better way" it will come. The best thing about the contacts was the concept of reward for running not jumping... If only I had a dog I could reward with a tug thrown in position... Victory laps are us. Edited July 22, 2014 by Mrs Rusty Bucket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Actually, the reason I like it is that it gives you a good target position for the dog to drive to so that you can have fast, independent contacts. I looked at a few other methods, but didn't find anything better for what I wanted. I don't care about nose touching the ground in a trial - would rather have focus forward. Thought about a foot target, experimented with one with Kaos, but kept getting too much looking at me rather than focusing only on the target/driving to the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 yeah it's tricky problem. SG and LOH and Derretts have not come up with a good answer either. I keep thinking when we do figure it out, someone is going to say - that's obvious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) I'm hoping you guys will answer a couple of questions for me...I think they are probably pretty basic, but bear in mind I was basically completely unfamiliar with SG before I joined recallers a few weeks ago! 1. Can we use hand targeting to teach new behaviours? 2. SG said that if you give a cue to your dog, whatever your dog is doing at the time you give it the cue will be rewarded. Then she gave an example of a Weimy who would run away after it had jumped the last jump in agility. But then she said, he would actually recall to his owner no problems, but the recall had trained him to run away. So it's like she was saying you shouldn't do this. But, surely in the 'real world' if I had Del off leash and she began to run toward a dog, I would have to recall her, or at least give her some cue in order to stop her from meeting the other dog? Wouldn't I? What I am saying, is I don't really see anyway around giving the dog a cue in these situations. I certainly am not able to tackle her like the lady with the Weim. And I honestly don't think I could ever get her to the point where she just ignores everything. Especially things like rabbits. I simply can't imagine her being off leash, seeing a rabbit, and going 'I will ignore the rabbit'. Edited July 27, 2014 by raineth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I think I understand your confusion :) It's really hard for me because I create strong behaviour chains around running rabbits and flying birds for competition :laugh: It's about avoiding behaviour chains ie you've got to be bad to be good. So for me, dog is free running, the dog chased something, you call it, dog immediately comes back. Reward! Go crazy! Awesome Or dog loves swimming, goes swimming, call dog's name, head snaps back, release to continue swimming. BUT! Dog is "engaged" with you - agility, obedience etc, dog disengages and runs off or sniffs, you call the dog, reward the dog for coming back. Not so awesome. Same as barking in the crate....bark, quiet, reward, bark, quiet, reward....Loose leash walking....pull, call back, walk nicely, reward, pull, call back, walk nicely, reward. With the hand touches - dog distracted, verbal "touch", hand touch, reward. Instead you need to give the dog a chance to face the distraction and choose to come with you and your rewards. Or with barking in the crate, the cover breaks the cycle really well. I think they can learn to choose you over the rabbit but it's not easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsaroundoz Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I just love all the games based training in the SG course, they work wonders for my 2 boys, they keep them motivated to be with me and have resulted in me being able to run them, off leash, even when I am in really remote areas (think ginormous cattle stations in NT) without them taking off never to be seen again! When we are play-training though I do watch for any signal that either boy is getting tired or turning off, then it's a quick recall, tons of praise/reward...and clips on. Now that Clancy is going blind I do have to be selective as to where we play train though, nice large open spaces where he will not run into anything are best. We don't trial. Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I think I understand your confusion :) It's really hard for me because I create strong behaviour chains around running rabbits and flying birds for competition :laugh: It's about avoiding behaviour chains ie you've got to be bad to be good. So for me, dog is free running, the dog chased something, you call it, dog immediately comes back. Reward! Go crazy! Awesome Or dog loves swimming, goes swimming, call dog's name, head snaps back, release to continue swimming. BUT! Dog is "engaged" with you - agility, obedience etc, dog disengages and runs off or sniffs, you call the dog, reward the dog for coming back. Not so awesome. Same as barking in the crate....bark, quiet, reward, bark, quiet, reward....Loose leash walking....pull, call back, walk nicely, reward, pull, call back, walk nicely, reward. With the hand touches - dog distracted, verbal "touch", hand touch, reward. Instead you need to give the dog a chance to face the distraction and choose to come with you and your rewards. Or with barking in the crate, the cover breaks the cycle really well. I think they can learn to choose you over the rabbit but it's not easy. Thanks TSD! That has clarified the issue for me. I am being extra vigilant at the moment to ensure I'm not creating undesirable behavior chains. Because I think I have been doing that at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 You're no Robinson Crusoe raineth :laugh: Most of us do it inadvertently! I think LAT works particularly well because the dog gets to make a choice rather than building up that chain of fearful, bark, verbal "look at me", reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 1. Can we use hand targeting to teach new behaviours? Yes - you can see some of it in the last coaching call for Recallers 5, where she uses hand targetting to get the dog into position for RZ (reinforcement zone, heel work). 2. SG said that if you give a cue to your dog, whatever your dog is doing at the time you give it the cue will be rewarded. (snip) This is really tricky... there is a balance that you kind of build up gradually - where the dog understands the task eg recall, and has value for the recall (it feels almost as good as getting a treat), so they will do stuff to get the treat - which might be the recall cue. I don't think my dog feels that way entirely about recalls yet. But she does about other things. Or maybe I haven't figured out when she's training me. A few examples where I've noticed I'm being trained... Or my dog is an absolute fibber... I tried using LAT with the lawnmower man but I got the timing wrong and handed out treats for her being EXTREMELY EXCITED in front of the lawn mower man - instead of waiting then counting to three and rewarding CALM sitting placid sleepy behaviour. (cf egg and bacon boy coaching call) Also - my dog will do the whole play bow let me off to play with other dogs routine, and I used to let her off. And she'd go foraging in the playground - leaving a very disappointed wanna be play mate dog behind... Oops. And she's well learned - poke my hand - get treat (repeat). Ie we will be off lead at the beach and she will initiate poke the boss's hand for hand outs... She's also worked out that she almost always gets a good treat for recall but she has to nick off for there to be a recall... that's if I'm not falling for the poke hand treatment. SG is really good at picking when there is a back chain forming... I'm not so good at that. I think you have to see it lots... But, surely in the 'real world' if I had Del off leash and she began to run toward a dog, I would have to recall her (snip) Pretty sure SG agrees with this, but then you have review your training again. Remember our dogs are not supposed to be off lead in an environment where we need to recall them, until about day 18 "field trip" - are we there yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 * ***************** ALERT ********************** hopefully all the right people got emails but there's two more coaching calls this week, H360 and IC Peeps. coaching calls H360 4pm July 30 Toronto Canada time. which is Adelaide Thursday, 31 July 2014 at 5:30:00 AM (Ouch) IC Peeps 31st July 6:30pm Toronto Canada Time which is Adelaide (Australia - South Australia) Friday, 1 August 2014 at 8:00:00 AM http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Thanks for your response MRB :) I liked your examples too. My most obvious example was originally when I got Del, and we were working on other dogs as distractions I accidentally trained a whine at the dog then eye contact with the human behaviour chain. My one deliberate sort of behaviour chain (although somewhat undesirable) was that I taught her to bring me everything she steals. I couldn't exactly work out how to stop her stealing stuff, but I felt that bringing me the things she steals was a reasonable compromise. In answer to your question, no I am not doing those sorts of recalls with her. I was just using it to aid my understanding. To be honest I suspect I will never be able to reliably recall Del under those conditions. Not long after I first got her, i put her on the really reliable recall program. Everything was going text book and we had had only successful recalls over a period of several weeks. Then once when we were in one our familiar places, and I recalled her, and she looked at me and took off in the opposite direction. Took me ages to find her, and when I did she was attempting to climb a tree that ad cockatoos in it, a long, long way away from our original location. And I have not trusted her since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 To be honest I suspect I will never be able to reliably recall Del under those conditions. I thought that about Frosty and many things... but sometimes she surprises me and times where I thought there was no way... I get a brilliant recall. But I find towards the end of a walk when she's getting a bit tired - stuff stops working, and I might as well put her on lead. She gave me the blow off the other day and went hoovering in the playground. Not good, because there were kids in the playground too tho she wasn't the least bit interested in them. And soon it could get me fined - because they've changed the rules at our dog park. My main mistake was - I know vaguely where her threshold or zone of obedience is around that playground and I let her cross it off lead. In fact I even threw a ball for her to fetch across it, and she picked up the ball and just nicked off. Oops. But we have AMAZING recalls at the beach. So it's about working on little bits often and then setting limits ie we will do three recalls at the park and then we're back on lead or not doing any more calling. I find lots of collar grab helps a lot, and paying attention to rewarding only "average or better" performance. Ie for us, it's not a collar grab if she doesn't put her neck and collar in my hand. So sometime I can use that as a recall signal - I stick my hand out, she puts her neck on my hand... phew, great, wow! I think that "average or better" thing is key too. And it does my head in still, ie the harder they have to work for something the more they want it. Apple phone marketing knows this. But I keep thinking I have to offer something she wants - aka Luring. Which invites the blow off. Ie I don't need or want this today...I've got better things to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Lots of great reminders in there for me MRB :) The collar grabs are something I do need to put more work into. I thought they were going ok. But when I had her in a different environment (on a long lead) and she was doing really good recalls, except that when she got close I noticed her starting avoid the collar grab. So much is new in this course for me really. I do feel like we have made some impressive improvements already. I can see her trying to make those 'right' choices, bless her. Just a moment ago I was taking a chicken drumstick to the backyard to practice some crate games out there. And when she smelt the chicken she jumped about the place, and then she remembered herself, and ran away about four metres from the backdoor and sat. She sat the whole time while I walked past her, until I released her and then she ran into the crate :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Very cool! I have always done multiple recalls on walks and jackpot the last one that involves putting the leash on….Zig will bolt towards me when he sees the leash come out. I have called Ziggy off kangaroos. Twice. So I know it's not a fluke :laugh: But one thing you can work on is a distance sit (or drop) - it seems to be easier for them to sit than completely turn their back on the fun stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Yes a good remote sit or drop - our drop is best, is great for helping to catch naughty dogs. Again - I have no idea why she will do a drop stay when I ask and not the recall, and then with the drop stay - she will let me walk up to her and clip the lead on. But it works best if we practice it often and everywhere. The other thing my dog adores is start line stay practice... I have no idea how I got this part so right, but she just loves it. I watched someone who is much better at dog agilty than me - and she has a dog that does the creepy ups on the start line and she's yelling and cursing and has no idea how to fix it. I can't get a rear cross, but I can get the start line. And mostly it's because I know the thing my dog finds the most rewarding is the chase... So every time she moves, I put her back - collar grab, small circle and I laugh at her for "getting it wrong" (planned failure), and we start over and I work pretty hard at faking her out... in fact she does a better start line stay if I try to fake her out on my lead out than if I walk up there being all calm and not flappy... If I'm jumping around and pretending to start running, she can't take her eyes off me and she's so excited, but she stays... Until I release and whee... tho sometimes we lose the value for the jumps and she runs around them all on her way to me. And then she gets mad at me for not running... Most frequent reward is a tug toy or my hat taken on the run, and then she does a "victory lap" with my hat wrapped around her face like the creature from Alien... Doggy joy. All the way. So sometimes my recall signal is me waving the hat and pretending to run... but that doesn't always beat the playground hoover temptation. So we have some work to do there. It really helps to know what the big distractions are because then you can work on "proofing" them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leah82 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Ok so there wasn't a whole heap of interest in the catchup but it's possible some people might have missed it so I've created a topic in the Social Events section :) http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/258673-recallers-50-vic-catchup/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Nice, but I'm not bringing my possible to be mistook for pitbull or pitbull cross to Vic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now