The Formal Front

[Staranais]

Hi folks!

I'm after tips for training the formal front. My boy does a great recall, but he tends to just do it to anywhere my general vicinity which obviously will not cut it in competition.

I'm thinking that I should train a seperate front, and had a few questions for anyone who has done this.

How have you folks taught your doggies to sit straight. Luring with food? shaping with a clicker? target training?

Do you have a different command for a formal recall/front as opposed to a casual recall?

Do you have a different command for the recall and the front, or just one command for both?

[Kavik]

I taught the front with food. You can do really short recalls (or come fores) to enforce the front position - not worrying about speed etc, just the front. Just a couple of steps backwards usually works - I also do this to straighten any crooked fronts.

I also used the 'spitting food' technique to get Diesel very comfortable with the front position and looking up at me - starting with me kitting/kneeling on the ground. Sometimes I would just stand in front of him. You can also just put your hand with the food in a position so the dog's head is in the desired position. I do this if Diesel has a tendency to sit too far back to try to catch the food.

I use the 'Come!' command to mean a formal recall to a front sitting position, and his name 'Diesel' as an informal recall meaning come closer to me/to my general direction.

[Lablover]

Nothing like a nice square front finish.

Most of all, start at very short distances and slowly build. Have your hands in the middle of your chest area, making sure the lead is held in both hands. Praise/reward for good responses. You may need to gently nudge your dog with either of your feet. Do not make a big deal of this as many younger dogs tend to have lazy sits. If the dog does not square, take a step back and try again. If your dog does not sit straight away that is fine, as the most important part is coming in with a good attitude.The sit can be trained later.

You could use a couple of chairs to create side barriers. Start with them wider as some dogs may not be as comfortable as others. I like chairs rather than walls, fences etc as the angle and location can be changed easily.

Having a good recall in place is important as a dog may feel it is being corrected for coming rather than not sitting square.

Running backwards holding the lead to your chest helps too as the dogs normally are already "fairly" straight.

Edited: Grammar again. Lordie why do I try to give advise when I am tired. Sorry.

Edited August 18, 2005 by Lablover

[Staranais]

Thanks, you two.

So you both think teach the finish from a short distance away, then gradually increase the distanct till it becomes a proper recall to finish?

Have your hands in the middle of your chest area, making sure the lead is held in both hands.

I especially like this idea, thanks, Lablover. I think it will really help him to have that visual 'body language' signal as well as a verbal one, to signify that this is a formal recall.

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Am

I prefer to lure with food and bring my hands to about hip area (in the middle) so that the dog comes in close and straight. I also use feet shuffles and shoulder repositioning to straighten if I need to.

I would also start with short come-fores and graduall increase the distance.

You should use different commands for different types of recalls, perhaps "To me" or the dog's name for the informal stuff and "Come" for the formal.

I have seen a fantastic technique for straightening the come-fore's on a schutzhund video, it's a little difficult to explain but it is based on body posture (human that is).

[sidoney]

Be careful with putting hands in the centre if competing, as you may get faulted for double signal - depends on where your hands start and on the judge.

Teach "front" as a position. Dog should be able to find front from anywhere - beside you, behind you, etc.

[Kavik]

So sidoney would you teach 'front' as a position the same way as heel? I've taught heel as a position and Diesel will come to heel position from anywhere. How would you do that with front, the same way?

[Kelpie-i]

Be careful with putting hands in the centre if competing, as you may get faulted for double signal - depends on where your hands start and on the judge.

Sorry, should have mentioned that I am not teaching for competition obedience but rather companion obedience, so we don't worry too much about double signals and judges

[sidoney]

Kavik, yes, if it worked for heel it's going to work for front - front should be easier to teach, it's a more clear position for the dog.

Kelpie-i: I learned the hard way, got pinged for it once.

Edited August 18, 2005 by sidoney

[Kavik]

Do you then give the front a separate command or do you use 'come'?

ETA: Because when I do a finish I still use the 'heel' command, but some people give the finish a separate command. I figure because he is coming to the heel position I can use the same command, and I taught the finish by teaching where the heel position is.

Edited August 18, 2005 by Kavik

[sidoney]

Give it a cue that means, get into this position pronto. If you are using come for something else or not so defined, I'd use a different one. "Front" is good - unequivocal about what it means.

[Erny]

I have seen a fantastic technique for straightening the come-fore's on a schutzhund video, it's a little difficult to explain but it is based on body posture (human that is).

I'd love to see that, Kelpie-i .... if I might ?? Which Video?

Edited August 18, 2005 by Erny

[Staranais]

Thanks again, people.

Be careful with putting hands in the centre if competing, as you may get faulted for double signal - depends on where your hands start and on the judge.

If I keep my hands there from the time I leave the dog, to the time I recall and front him, would it still be counted as a double signal? In that case it wouldn't specifically be a recall cue, it would merely be a visual reminder that this is formal not casual.

I have seen a fantastic technique for straightening the come-fore's on a schutzhund video, it's a little difficult to explain but it is based on body posture (human that is).

I'd like to see that too. Or else would be grateful for a description?

[espinay2]

My favourite way to teach 'front' and 'come' is to backchain the exercise.

Think of it this way. The exercise 'recall' is not to run towards you, but to move as quick as possible to sit in front of you. No matter where the dog is, it has to move from point A (where it is) to point B (sitting in front of you). The running is just the getting there, not the exercise itself. The aim of the exercise is the sitting in front. (A bit like the aim of 'heel' is not the moving, but the actual position beside the handlers leg, whether moving or stationary)

So, start from the beginning and teach your dog to sit straight in front of you. You start where you plan to end (this is what 'backchaining' is).

Once you have taught the dog to sit striaght in front of you, THEN you can start introducing greater distance, starting very close and building up slowly as each new distance is consolidated. You can also introduce different angles, and I recommend this right from the beginning as the dog needs to come from different directions to sit straight in front and needs to make an effort to be straight. This helps reinforce the sitting straight. Theoretically, they should be able to come from any point close or far within a 360 degree radius from you and sit straight in front.

Sometimes to 'get' this I have had people stop using the command 'come' for the whole recall exercise and switch to using 'front'. It tends to put in focus for the handler what the point of the exercise is and stops confusion and falling into old habits of letting the dog 'wander' when they get close to the handler on the recall.

HTH

[sidoney]

If I keep my hands there from the time I leave the dog, to the time I recall and front him, would it still be counted as a double signal? In that case it wouldn't specifically be a recall cue, it would merely be a visual reminder that this is formal not casual.

You should not have a problem with that. Another thing you can do is to put your hands in that position as you about turn, after walking away from the dog. That's probably more natural to do - but as you start and finish the recall cue with the same hand position, it's not a double cue. I can't see you getting pinged for it - was advised so also.

Edited August 19, 2005 by sidoney

[Kelpie-i]

We teach the front as part of the recall process, ie. Come means to come and sit in front, but we start teaching it in short distances and gradually increasing the distance.

However, I think you can pretty much do what you want to do...I cannot see why you could not teach the front as its own position...you'd have to chain this to the recall later. Again, I come from companion obedience training and this may differ for competition training.

Kavik, if you've taught your dog to recall directly to heel position, then you'll simply need to use another name for the come-fore recall. You are best to lure with food to teach this as dogs that are taught to heel will naturally want to keep going to heel position initially. You can use the heel position as the finish.

Sidoney, I have seen people in competition use their arms held out wide as the recall signal and then they bring their hands together to the front of them (as though they were resting them). I know for a fact that some are using this as their hand signal to the dog to finish to front. How does the judge prove this to be double signalling when it looks so natural? And what cue is used by the owner for the dog to finish to heel? Is this cue allowed to be noticeable? Sorry for the 20 questions ;)

A friend of mine uses the word "Yes" as a cue to his dog to start heeling with focus. When the judge calls "Are you ready", he answers "Yes" and the dog springs into action - FULL POINTS!.

The video I mentioned about straightening the come-fore is by Joanne Plumb titled Obedience (parts 1 and 2). I think it's on the 2nd video. It's way too complicated for me to describe in words. We use this method in school and it really improves the fronts as the owners are learning about how vital their posturing is.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Kelpie-i

[sidoney]

Sidoney, I have seen people in competition use their arms held out wide as the recall signal and then they bring their hands together to the front of them (as though they were resting them). I know for a fact that some are using this as their hand signal to the dog to finish to front. How does the judge prove this to be double signalling when it looks so natural?

If they start with their hands at their sides (as the judge says, "call your dog"), then give the recall signal (whichever theirs is), and then finish with their hands in front, they have a different hand position at the end to at the beginning, and some (not all) judges will fault this as a double signal.

[Kavik]

Kelpie - sorry if it was confusing, I recall my dog to a formal front position, not directly to heel. I normally teach the recall the same as you.

I teach heel as a position before movement and can get Diesel to heel from many positions. Before this I had not thought to teach the front/recall in a similar way,

I taught Diesel heel as a position primarily for the left about turn and swing finish.

I hadn't thought about the possibility of double signal - will have to think about where I want my hands.

[Staranais]

Thanks again, everyone. Will definately look at getting that video, Kelpei-i.

[Staranais]

Double post - sorry.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Amhailte