MonElite Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Since I have been training under directions of K9 Force my dog had became somewhat obsessed about a ball on the string I train with. That is fine, its very helpfull in training but started to be somewhat annoying on a walk and during play with other dogs. As many know Rex isnt an angel when it comes to being friends with other dogs, but he has some and is always happy to run around and play with them. On sat we had 3 of them chasing the ball and twice there was a bit of a "talk" about the ball between them. What do you suggest, stop playing ball with the dogs - I mean 2 or 3 chasing the ball at the same time) or should we do some training with them not to have arguments? or have multiple balls? or what? After they had a bit of a talk about the ball we jsut removed the object of desire and they were fine. Also in my other group of dog friends dogs chase balls, but there is one dog that doesnt care about the ball at all, he does however chase one of the other dogs in the group. does anyone have any idea why that is happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpiegal Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Depends on the dog & the situation but one of our dogs Jazz whose a red heeler x kelpie has no interest in balls or related type games but if she's off lead & the other dogs are chasing something she'll join in & run with the group. I assume & people can correct me if I'm wrong but I feel sometimes that it's just a small part of their pack nature coming out. Dogs run in the wild as a pack & I know both my dogs enjoy the group chase as it's providing them with (for Shelby) an object to pursue & for Jazz just general inclusion with the other dogs. When one dog displays aggression in this situation that could turn nasty I suppose you then have to see if you want your dog to play in that environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 10, 2005 Author Share Posted October 10, 2005 OK another question. Rex will run after a ball (lets say he is on his own) and always each and every time will run pass it, only after that will put the breaks on, turn 180 to go and get it. Why not put the breaks a bit earlier? Can someone explain that to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I think all dogs do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 10, 2005 Author Share Posted October 10, 2005 Hmm no, thats why I ask. In my sunday walk group majority of dogs dont run pass the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I'd venture a guess its because of the difference in the eyesight of dogs, IE, a dog's eye is better able to see movement than detail. They also have less colour receptors, so perhaps he simply doesn't see it from a distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim1 Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Mine does the same thing. Runs & passes the ball before doing a u turn. I put it down to that hes moving too fast & only when he passes the ball does he realize that he's actually passed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Hi Mon, I would not play throw the kong with Ruben and other dogs together because it is to high value to Ruben and there could be fights. I would use something less value to Ruben like a tennis ball. Ruben will also run past the ball /kong then come back unless its still moving, If its still moving he will get it on the run. Maybe its like Haven said that it is easier to see when moving. Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I don't like throwing things for them all together since one is always more keen than the others and it puts the others off. I also have a dog that would rather chase dogs with balls than the balls. I don't like to encourage that. I prefer the chase and fetch game to be one on one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 ..... always each and every time will run pass it, only after that will put the breaks on, turn 180 to go and get it.Why not put the breaks a bit earlier? Could this just be a 'learnt' behaviour (or technique, for want of another word)? And/or perhaps an instinctive hunting behaviour (ie cutting the prey off at the pass). Don't know .... just guessing. Interesting observation, Myszka. Could also have something to do with eyesight "depth" perception and colour perception factors, as Haven touches on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 M: What do you suggest, stop playing ball with the dogs - I mean 2 or 3 chasing the ball at the same time) or should we do some training with them not to have arguments? or have multiple balls? or what? K9: training in prey drive evevates the value of the prey item, somethimg more valueable will certainly be worth fighting over. Providing a prey item in an area where other dogs may be able to capture it created conflict. I never play with prey items when I have both of my dogs around, it would end up with blood on the ground given my dogs level of drive & prey item experience. M: Rex will run after a ball (lets say he is on his own) and always each and every time will run pass it, only after that will put the breaks on, turn 180 to go and get it.Why not put the breaks a bit earlier? Can someone explain that to me. K9: he isnt focussed enough on the ball, when they get high in drive & focussed, often they attempt to strike the prey but may fly past just due their speed, they can be trained out of this if need be. Start throwing the item out with string attached, when he runs toward it, jerk the string back toward you, so he has to chase it. A few reps will have him dive on it with his paws, then try & capture it... H: I'd venture a guess its because of the difference in the eyesight of dogs, IE, a dog's eye is better able to see movement than detail. They also have less colour receptors, so perhaps he simply doesn't see it from a distance. K9: whilst Im not a canine eye doctor, lol, I believe they can see the items just fine, I can smack a golf ball, Happy Gilmore style, around 600m, my bitch will be off after it & strike the ball in a foot of grass. Thats after running 600m at warp speed. If there was a person hiding in the grass, she run faster & strike harder lol... ************************* K9: If I have 2 with me & want to play, I will put one in a drop stay & let the other chase, then swap after 3 or 4 minutes. It's not difficult... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 11, 2005 Author Share Posted October 11, 2005 (edited) It's not difficult... it should read its not difficult for some.... Yeah I can do that - tie my monster up first and listen to the cries... As to caprturnig with paws - yes he does that too sometimes. I have to say that over the weeks/months of training and the limited prey drive developement I see a dramatic change in the the whole ball chasing scenarios. Previously - he would chase the other dogs not the ball, would run pass the ball and do a wide circle to come back and never attempted to actually get the ball giving it to the other dog. Nowadays, full speed run, goes pass the ball puts on serious breaks, often falls over, or if not definitelly wrecks the grass. Captures the ball (sometimes a bit reluctant if other dog gets it) and comes back straight for more. Sits automatically shaking in anticipation. I absolutly love it. So what do you suggest Steve? Dont play that at all? - I mean mainly Rex and Benny - you know both dogs. Or play v limited amount of throws?Or have two balls - both the same direction is OK? And have balls that are not most presious to them? So far we didnt have a problem but I want to prevent "talks" between dogs. Last thing we need is an argument between Rex and Benny. Edited October 11, 2005 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 (edited) OK another question.Rex will run after a ball (lets say he is on his own) and always each and every time will run pass it, only after that will put the breaks on, turn 180 to go and get it. Why not put the breaks a bit earlier? Can someone explain that to me. This could also be a physical thing Myszka. It may be uncomfortable for him to lower himself while after the ball. Of my 3, only one of them does this & I have always accreditied it to his physical structure, being long in the back & deep chested. He certainly has no less drive than the other 2 to get it. Edited October 11, 2005 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 M: Yeah I can do that - tie my monster up first and listen to the cries. K9: he cries because he thinks your taking something from him, he needs to reaslise, 1. its not his, its yours, 2. he will get it, every time, have patience.. M: I have to say that over the weeks/months of training and the limited prey drive developement I see a dramatic change in the the whole ball chasing scenarios. K9: when I give someone a program for high prey drive training, its working this program 3 times a day, 3 - 4 minutes per session, 7 days per week. M: So what do you suggest Steve? Dont play that at all? - I mean mainly Rex and Benny - you know both dogs. Or play v limited amount of throws?Or have two balls - both the same direction is OK? And have balls that are not most presious to them?So far we didnt have a problem but I want to prevent "talks" between dogs. Last thing we need is an argument between Rex and Benny. K9: to improve self control, have one sit stay, down stay, ok, on leash if need be. Let the other do one fetch, then swap. I dont like the two in prey drive together, its asking for trouble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 11, 2005 Author Share Posted October 11, 2005 K9: when I give someone a program for high prey drive training, its working this program 3 times a day, 3 - 4 minutes per session, 7 days per week. that will be for my other dog - you know the one I dont ahve as yet. After I quit my full time work and being your PR representative For now Rexy has to stick to 3-4 times a week of chasing ball and doing some ob excercises if I feel like it. No wonder he is so badly behaved most of the times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 K9: whilst Im not a canine eye doctor, lol, I believe they can see the items just fine, I can smack a golf ball, Happy Gilmore style, around 600m, my bitch will be off after it & strike the ball in a foot of grass. Thats after running 600m at warp speed. Not to argue that this is the (or only the) reason for dogs running beyond the ball, but more clarity (or less, as the case may be) depends on the colour of the ball and the colour of the background on which the ball was thrown. Dogs see green, yellow, red at one end of the spectrum. Dogs see blue, indigo and violet at the other end of the spectrum. But they can't tell the difference between each of the colours within the same groupings. Eg. A red ball on green grass would be represented in the same colouring. (Hence, IMO, manufacturers are better to produce, and purchasers are better to buy, a violet coloured ball if it is to be thrown on a grassed field.) What the dog is assisted by, in these circumstances is the movement of the ball, which utilises not only sight but also brain computation to give depth of field. All other colours are seen as white or varying shades of grey. Hence your golf ball is more easily spotted against the colour green, than would be a ball if it were coloured, for example, red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 E: Not to argue that this is the (or only the) reason for dogs running beyond the ball, but more clarity (or less, as the case may be) depends on the colour of the ball and the colour of the background on which the ball was thrown.Dogs see green, yellow, red at one end of the spectrum. Dogs see blue, indigo and violet at the other end of the spectrum. K9: yes I have read all of that, however if the dog couldnt see the ball, it would run right buy & not turn around. When the dog has enough drive for the ball, it will watch & want it more intently. E: All other colours are seen as white or varying shades of grey. Hence your golf ball is more easily spotted against the colour green, than would be a ball if it were coloured, for example, red. K9: all golf balls arent white, not that I play golf, lol, but the ones I play with are orange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 K9: yes I have read all of that, however if the dog couldnt see the ball, it would run right buy & not turn around. Except that the ball is neither rolling fast going directly away from or directly towards the dog. Perhaps it helps the dog as it passes the ball to compute in more detail exactly its placement to enable it to more easily and successfully 'catch' it. Just musing. Placement of the dog's eyes (which alter from breed to breed) could have a bearing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 K9: When I have seen a dog go through prey drive development, I have seen them go from running past the ball to running straight to it, I guess there will be some that dont see it, others that dont want it that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 My point was not that the dog doesn't see the ball at all, but that perhaps they don't see it until they are closer, or that they have trouble predicting the distance between them and the ball. Like most things, I'd imagine it were a skill that could be improved upon with practise. But I'm not a canine eye doctor either Perhaps it could also be a motivation thing IE more drive than control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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