Weimlover Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 (edited) Thats okay BOF I'm so sorry, that must have been awful That just makes me hate the check chains more Edited November 1, 2005 by Weimlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 (edited) BOF: K9 Force. We don't live in a perfect world. K9: the world doesnt have to be perfect to stop your dog pulling on a leash without a harness... BOF": As I am 60+ and female with bad back and knees, I use these harnesses as a safety measure. If my guys decide to take off after a cat I can prevent any huge rush!!! This is the only reason I use the harnesses. K9: The first piece of advice I would give would be to walk one dog at a time... There are other tools that will both provide you with safety whilst allowing you to train the dog. Bof: Am completely aware that they do not stop pulling but as I walk 2 dogs I cannot walk them at 'heel' position as one will always be out of position. K9: dogs dont have to heel on one side, & you can have dogs heel 2, 3 & 4 deep... Bof: As I still work full time I do not have the time to walk them one by one. K9: Im not sure what your priority is, safety or time saving? BOF: As I ruined my first dog by yanking him around on the check chain K9: just keep in mind that jerking your dog around & ruining him was not the fault of the check chain... & you should know I dont use check chains... ************************************ WL: Then I tried the Sporn harness with him and It has worked wonders K9: has it? WL: Now I can use a flat collar on him with out him pulling. K9: excellent! WL: Ocasionally he will start pulling again so I put the halter back on for a couple of times and do the praising again and then he seems to be fine K9: oh... WL: I do tend to agree with some of the others that it wont fix the problem K9: I cant tell what you think of these at all? first "it worked wonders", then you gave an example of how your dog doesnt pull anymore, then you contradict that with "he starts pulling again so" & you conclude with "I agree with others that it wont fix the problem...? Maybe you missed it but thats what I posted? It will work as a maintenance tool, not a training tool.. ********************************************* BOF: I can never forgive myself for the damage I did to him and therefore will never use a check chain again. K9: Like I said, I dont use nor recommend checks either, but just be aware that the chain did not cause the damage... No dog, no matter what the problem should be ripped off his feet.. Edited November 1, 2005 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Yes, K9, I know that now but at the time I didn't. I will be eternally ashamed that I could have really hurt my old boy (although then he wasn't old). Don't jump to conclusions, please. I live alone so my time is extremely precious. I belong to many dog clubs - am serving on committees and trialling my dogs. This is my choice. Occasionally, I have to walk the guys on the street and I CHOOSE to walk them on ezi walkers as I have more control over them. It is NOT an option to walk one at a time. I am also very aware that you don't use check chains. There was never any inference that you do. We all do what we can to help our dogs. I am far from perfect and would never even think that what I do is the best - it is just the best I can do at the moment for my dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 BOF": Don't jump to conclusions, please. K9: I havent, I simply have responded to what I have read here. BOF: I live alone so my time is extremely precious. I belong to many dog clubs - am serving on committees and trialling my dogs. K9: as you mentioned its your choice, I personally wouldnt run the risk of walking two dogs in the condition you described your in, I consider it a risk that would see me commit my time more toward my dogs rather than a commitee. Although thats not really any of my business, you just mentioned it here. One might get the impression from your initial post that you would recommend the harness, but as one reads on, its seems your forced to use it to maintain safety & save time. BOF: It is NOT an option to walk one at a time. K9: given the fact that we are offering advice yo someone who requested it, I give you this response. There is the option of walking one at a time, you just dont wish to commit the time. BOF: it is just the best I can do at the moment for my dogs. K9: in the scheme of things, I believe that you & your dogs would benefit from a training program & martingale or prong collar, this would train the dogs not to pull, provide safety & put an end to the discomfort that the harness provides. The problem I have with them is that by not teaching the dog not to pull, there is no end to the aversive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Well, as prong collars are not permitted in NSW I don't find that an alternative. I use a martingale and a cloth martingale on my boy for obedience. My dogs compete in obedience, agility and Gundog Working Tests so they are not a problem pulling on lead. I know how to stop that, but people are looking for alternatives so I simply put one forward. I simply pointed out the reason why I am so against check chains as an example for people. Not everyone who instructs is a good instructor same as not everyone who trains is a good trainer. Not meaning that personally as I have no knowledge of your methods - I am probably one of the worst trainers around but I have a lot of fun with my guys. They are very obedient dogs just not good obedience dogs. My biggest problem is that I teach my guys everything OFF lead so on the rare occasions they are walked on lead it is such a novelty that they get quite excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 BOF: Well, as prong collars are not permitted in NSW I don't find that an alternative. K9: prong colars are not banned in NSW.... BOF: I know how to stop that, K9: I have no idea then why you would be using the harness...? Its not that you recommended one only, you have said that you use one to stop pulling, & now say that you can train your dogs to stop pulling, maybe its just me but I am confused here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 The only thing I believe harnesses are good for are for car rides and that's about it. Harnesses are not a walking/training aids and they actually encourage the dog to pull as it centres on the dog's strongest part of his body - the chest. This is why a harness is used for sled pulling. Anyone heard of the push/pull effect?? Someone pushes you, you automatcially pull forward towards them. It's the law of physics! This is the way a harness works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 (edited) . Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobbles Posted November 1, 2005 Author Share Posted November 1, 2005 that's true anne, it's not like a normal harness. I was going to ask you K9 Force: do you think Leela's behaviour on the martingale sometimes is an indication that she doesn't care for the martingale and we need a prong collar instead? The fact that she takes run up when she gets bored or distracted, and gives herself a correction- and keeps doing it? I am still training her I haven't given up, although I am starting to think I am failing. I just thought maybe this harness thing could work for me and my OH to go for nice walks together with both dogs. At the moment I can't just walk Leela with her normal collar with Bender as it undoes the training... I just want us all to be able to go for nice walks. At the moment when I walk her on her lead it's all training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 K: do you think Leela's behaviour on the martingale sometimes is an indication that she doesn't care for the martingale and we need a prong collar instead? The fact that she takes run up when she gets bored or distracted, and gives herself a correction- and keeps doing it? K9: first I should preface with, I only believe in 3 training collars, the prong, the martingale & the electronic collar. I allow the dog to decide which collar it needs between the martingale & the prong. The purpose of a correction collar is to provide an aversive, if the collar your currently using provides no aversive, then its the wrong one. If your dog will happily bounce off the mart with no loss of drive, you need to use a prong collar. K: I am still training her I haven't given up, although I am starting to think I am failing. K9: if the dog is beating you, your going the wrong way. The dog will never listen to you if it can gain its own success. K": Â I just want us all to be able to go for nice walks. At the moment when I walk her on her lead it's all training. K9: as do most people, look at the thread, Im so proud of Bear, Alibear put in the work with the right tools & method & has success. This will be lasting success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weimlover Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 K9: I cant tell what you think of these at all? first "it worked wonders", then you gave an example of how your dog doesnt pull anymore, then you contradict that with "he starts pulling again so" Whoops I did just read back my post What I ment to say is that he has Improved heaps since I have been using the harness but still will ocasionally start pulling again ( think he still gets a bit over excited sometimes, Hes still young ) I'm sorry if I offended you as that was not my intent I was just trying to let people know that it has been a great help for me personally. Maybe you missed it but thats what I posted? It will work as a maintenance tool, not a training tool.. No I didn't . I allow the dog to decide which collar it needs between the martingale & the prong. What is a martingale is that a limited slip collar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I'm sorry if I offended you as that was not my intent I was just trying to let people know that it has been a great help for me personally. K9: no offence here, you will have to try much, much harder, lol. Martingale is limited slip, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weimlover Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 (edited) [K9: no offence here, you will have to try much, much harder, lol. Does anyone know if electric collars are baned in S.A??? I have read a couple of posts where they have been really helpful. But more curious than anything. Edited November 1, 2005 by Weimlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 K9: I believe they are restricted, however, a vet can overule any of that if they recommend it for treatment, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weimlover Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Thanks for the reply:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 (edited) . Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Kelpie-i: The only thing I believe harnesses are good for are for car rides and that's about it. Harnesses are not a walking/training aids They're also good for tramping and running with your dog. When tramping, you can give your dog a wee boost over logs and boulders by tugging on his harness, not something you want to do with a collar! And when running, it means that if you inadvertently tug your dog along, he doesn't get his neck jerked. I agree a harness isn't a training aid - but your dog is already trained, it shouldn't matter what you walk him on, cause he won't be pulling on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 They're also good for tramping and running with your dog. When tramping, you can give your dog a wee boost over logs and boulders by tugging on his harness, not something you want to do with a collar! And when running, it means that if you inadvertently tug your dog along, he doesn't get his neck jerked In that case they are also good for tracking and flyball as well. But certainly not good to use for walking a a dog that is not trained and has a pulling habit. I refer to a normal harness not the Sporn harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 K9 we use them frequently for dogs during attack work also, removing pressure from the neck & distributing it evenly over the dogs chest. But never for training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna H Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Anne's experiences with the prong are fairly similar to mine. It has been a fantastic tool for training my GSP to walk nicely onlead. I have two dogs that I prefer to walk together at the same time... so I invested in a lot of time teaching them to both walk without pulling INDIVIDUALLY. My Kelpie X has never pulled and lives to heel perfectly by my side, so that was easy. My GSP on the other hand was a right terror who thought that walking time was meant for lunging and pulling as best as she could.... right from a young pup. I found that halti's just 'managed' the situation and she hated it anyway (she also learnt how to pull in one!), Martingales' weren't effective either and she definately pulled like a sled dog in a harness.... but the prong, bloody brilliant! After investing this time (yes, I'm a busy person who also prefers to walk my dogs together) training to walk individually without pulling, I am now able to walk both my dogs side by side at heel TOGETHER. Better still, is that Chelsea is now on a flat buckle collar as she no longer needs/wants to pull... she is happiest walking next to me. It has been a lot of hard work, but worth it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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