Breeds For Herding

[PossumCorner]

.....Personally I don't view herding as a "sport", something for a "bit of fun". ....  I get upset watching dogs come & chase sheep .....

Vickie,

I respect your opinion and agree with you in many areas. .... you dont see me jumping on the breeders community forums declaring how cruel it is.

cheers,

David.

Quotes not intended out of context at all. David, thanks for the opportunity to try herding when the opportunity was not available anywhere else that I knew of. And it took me a long time and a new dog before I thought I would have a go. I first questioned the sheep-welfare aspect on another forum, and this was David's reply much over twelve months ago: so the consistency here is without question.

He wrote: "For those of you who are concerned about the welfare of the sheep (and rightly so) -

The sheep used are professionals - they have been conditioned to dogs. They are Merino crosses and can be stubborn but docile.

If a dog is going to hard we push him out using a plastic rake (usually the sound of the rake on the ground is enough to push the dog away).

If the dog is showing bite a muzzle is used.

Sheep are changed over often.

So far we have had no injuries from participating dogs.

David."

So - I was just about to email David enquiring about the next training day, and to ask if I could take my Border-Collie-Cross along for him to assess if he would be acceptable. Then this thread started, and I thought oh gee, we won't be welcome by the purists, and my motivation will be in judgement. So I thought, I'll email David and ask if I can just go along to observe and take lots of photographs and get the feel of it by just watching to see if I thought my dog would be okay. Now I feel wary of doing even that in case I un-knowingly take a photo of someone's dog doing something "not quite right" and could be accused of bringing the dog or the handler or the sport into disrepute.

David I think what you are offering is fantastic and I would love to give my little fellow the chance to see what he makes of it, and to take some photos of the day - so I will ignore the reservations this thread had started to give me and see if I can book in.

[PossumCorner]

Oops posted twice, sorry, slips - no go.

Edited December 17, 2005 by PossumCorner

[mjk05]

I grew up on a property where we relied on livestock to feed & clothe us, it is ingrained in me that their welfare is a priority. Personally I don't view herding as a "sport", something for a "bit of fun".

I understand what you're saying, Vickie- but a large number of people with working-bred dogs doing WSDA trials are not relying on livestock for their livelihood- the dogs and trialling are recreational. Many of my state's top triallers are retired people or "hobby triallers"- who have the sheep to train the dogs. I believe some of the top performers at the Supreme and the National Yard trial also fit this description. Even though their dogs are working-bred, its a "sport".

I guess for me- its a sport. I have a working-bred dog living most of the time in the city, and we train for trials and farmwork for fun. Its not my job.

Even my OH, who is a professional farmer and cares very much about his stock welfare, has his "trials dogs" and "farm dogs" (and most dogs do both). For him, trials are a recreational activity.

Its good to remind people of the seriousness of this activity for both dogs and sheep- but for many people, training and working sheepdogs is a recreational activity. People like me don't NEED to train and work dogs. Can we justify our involvement in this activity/sport?

Even training very well-bred working dogs involves some stress to sheep. If those dogs are just going to be working sheep in trials or as a hobby for their owner, is that really justifiable? Its not helping sheep welfare as a whole. Maybe people like me should be happy to stick with agility and obedience with our working-bred pets... or not get working-bred dogs at all? (just playing devil's advocate here)...

When I look at photo's on peoples websites of their BCs "herding" with their head up & tail up & ramming into the shoulders of the sheep, I know that they have a different perception of herding to what I do, either that or their camera broke & they haven't taken a pic since their first outing.

100% agree with you there. I just wonder WHY they have those photos up? Do they think that's impressive "work"?

[Coolibah Coolies]

QUOTE

When I look at photo's on peoples websites of their BCs "herding" with their head up & tail up & ramming into the shoulders of the sheep, I know that they have a different perception of herding to what I do, either that or their camera broke & they haven't taken a pic since their first outing.

100% agree with you there. I just wonder WHY they have those photos up? Do they think that's impressive "work"?

My 2 cents worth only

Guys I have seen pics like that as well and wonder what people think they are proving, I have seen a whole photo site of a dog following sheep up a race just trotting along behind the sheep Proving ? Ziltcho.

Edited December 17, 2005 by coolibahkoolies

[PossumCorner]

My 2 cents worth only

Guys I have seen pics like that as well and wonder what people think they are proving, I have seen a whole photo site of a following sheep up a race just trotting along behind the sheep Proving ? Ziltcho.

Gee "proving ziltcho" that's a bit harsh. Like nobody should have an image of their dog up unless it shows it to great advantage and purpose? I've seen beginner Agility people ecstatic over a nice photo of their dog trotting between obstacles. Maybe not a great agility action shot, but it's not out to prove anything: just a nice shot of a loved dog to share. Certainly not showcasing impressive work nor described that way. It'd be different if people captioned their less terrific herding shots "my brilliant dog showing amazing form" but they don't, well not that I've seen.

[Coolibah Coolies]

Hi Possum I was reffering to a whole site of more or less the same pics like 50 plus not just one and I would never ever put sh&^% on any one who is proud of their dogs, ;)

[PossumCorner]

Fair enough Koolies - I'd over-reacted, glad you came back.

[cacharel]

Even training very well-bred working dogs involves some stress to sheep. If those dogs are just going to be working sheep in trials or as a hobby for their owner, is that really justifiable?

Hmmn - now lets see - here is a pix of a dog doing traditional European style herding . I'll get ready for the screams as I know some will 'that's not herding' but tell that to the many many thousands of Europeans who train their dogs in the traditional method - is this putting stress on the stock?? Please notice heads of stock down mostly all eating . . . different horses (in this case dogs) for different courses

[Sparty]

I dont know enough about other styles of herding to point sticks cacharel ;) and im not too proud to say so.

Every now and then Bodie pops his head up when he breaks concentration, my first trainer was very adamant about checking my photos before i posted them, she cant stand some of the photos posted as it can show the dog in a bad light (such as chasing or cutting sheep out or even working too close), I think in her forum they are more purists and in 3 sheep trialling it so more important not to give a bad impression as they have long memories.

I have been told 3sheep is very eliteist and used to be just for the "big hats" hopefully this will not spill over to ANKC herding,

BTW ANKC was designed for show dogs to show they still have retained instinct and can be trained ... how many breeders or owners do you think also run a sheep property or have land?

[cacharel]

I have been told 3sheep is very eliteist and used to be just for the "big hats" hopefully this will not spill over to ANKC herding,

Ditto here  ;)

BTW ANKC was designed for show dogs to show they still have retained instinct and can be trained ... how many breeders or owners do you think also run a sheep property or have land?

Maybe not so much for 'show' dogs, and at the risk of sounding elitist (sp) it was designed for pedigreed dogs of the breeds previously mentioned. My dogs both 'show' & work, but then some show people don't want to take the risk of the dog being injured, or heavens forbid, loosing some coat. In Qld our competitors come from agility, obedience and conformation backgrounds and many combine a couple of disciplines successfully. As for how many competitors have sheep property or land - who knows. I do know that quite a few up here and gone out and bought themselves stock - if they have the land to do so. I suspect that as the sport grows and people realise that to really progress that they need frequent access to stock, more people will own their stock - that has been very evident in the growth of AKC herding program. And of course once people have their own stock they are forced to learn about stock management & care - which can only be good.

BTW - the dog in the pix is working a 4 sided graze - C course . .

[Vickie]

removed comments not relevant to this thread

Edited December 19, 2005 by Vickie

[Kavik]

OK, just trying to get my head around some of this . . .

So the list of breeds that can participate in herding is actually quite large, but many have different styles to kelpies and bcs.

So how does that all work?

Is it only some types of herding that the other breeds do? Like GSDs - brought up in numerous threads that they don't herd the same as kelpies and bcs. Do they compete against them? Is it fair to compare them?

I've watched one yard trial (want to watch some more!) - it was mainly kelpies as I went with a friend who has kelpies, although there was the odd other dog.

I am planning on getting a kelpie next year and want to try herding.

[Vickie]

Kavik, it's quite a long read, but here is an article on different styles of working:

http://www.herdingontheweb.com/workingstyles.htm

[Kavik]

Thanks for the article Vickie! A very interesting read.

It explains the differences very well.

So it would make sense then that GSDs are very different to kelpies in a number of ways, including working style and general temperament. Not to mention that working GSDs are bred mainly for protection and protection sports rather than herding nowadays. (I also think this could explain the change in their appearance? Although maybe not as many of the other 'loose eyed' dogs on the page were larger too).

So how do these differences affect using them for trialling?

[cacharel]

Another list of articles

Herding Articles

Is it only some types of herding that the other breeds do? Like GSDs - brought up in numerous threads that they don't herd the same as kelpies and bcs. Do they compete against them? Is it fair to compare them?

Thats a good question . .

ANKC herding had 3 different courses. These courses are meant to be simulated situations of real 'farm work - however like all things they are artificial simulations. The 3 different courses are offered as they are supposed to cover all working styles of herding breeds. For instance if you had a GSD that excelled in HGH type work you would compete in C course (if offered). In each course there are Started, Intermediate and Advanced classes. If you competed in A course Started you really only compete against dogs in that same class until it comes down to working out High in Trial etc when all classes/ course are taken in to account.

A course - a general purpose all purpose farm course where precision & control are the key. There is a very defined path that the sheep must travel - how the dog gets the job done is not as important as the path of the sheep. It is the path of the sheep that is judged - not the style of the dog working. 3 levels, with the path of the stock remaining relativley unchanged between the levels - the position and range of movement of the handler changes as the levels go up. This course is meant to be suitable for all breeds. The course is judged in an arena sized from 30m x 60m up to 60m x 120 m 10min time limit for the course. Sheep, cattle & ducks can be used as stock for this course - usually 3 -5 head

B Course - an open field course based on the ISDS course. The size of the course depends on the length of the outrun, there are min & max length outruns (up to 360 m in Advanced class) for each of the classes. The length of the outrun determines the length of the drive legs. Once more the position & movement of the handler changes as you go up the levels. Sheep, cattle & ducks are the stocks offered on this course. 3 -5 head of stock 10 - 12 mins time limit applies

C Course - loosely patterned on the German HGH course to reflect a tending shepherd's day, as he/she accompanies the flock, moving to various unfenced grazing areas. The sheep must be allowed to graze peacefully, contained within specified unfenced areas, and safely guided on the roads between those areas. The dog patrols to guard against sheep trespassing onto the adjoining field, while the sheep graze and are moved along roads. The shepherd and dog are responsible for the safety and good health of the sheep, in addition to protection of all adjoining lands from the sheep. In this course there are penalties for the dog not working independently of the handler - it is the only course where very few commands are allowed, independent work is the key to this course. 20 -100 head and only sheep are used. there is also a car in this course which moves in the two higher levels. Course up to 800 metres exlcluding the graze lengths and up to 45 mins time allowed.

So far in Qld we've held A & B course on ducks & sheep and there will be C course trials next year ;)

[Guest cloverfdch]

Ah Riles how i have missed you, you took the words right out of my mouth (But worded it better ) ;).

I am currently unsure if i want to get involved with ANKC herding, if i do it will only be for "fun" not at all serious.

Ricey unfortunatly Hobbes would be looked down on by alot of herding folk . It is not right but true.

[Are You Serious Jo]

This has been an interesting thread, but hasn't put me off. I'll be taking my koolie bitch to the training days, but I realise that she may not be suitable, as I don't want to stress the sheep.

My Christmas present to me to celebrate getting back on track financially was a koolie cross heeler pup. She is from working parents and I intend to start her right and hopefully we'll both have a lot of controlled fun.

[Mel 45]

I'm not going to comment on anything written here as I'm not qualified to do so.

I only have to say that yesterday, Dave let me try my Whippet X on sheep. We don't know what he's crossed with, as he's pretty whippety but we suspect maybe a dash of Kelpie.

He was brilliant... (as I was told) shows a keen ability to herd and caught on very quickly, no bite instinct either.

Judging by what was said at the start of the thread (which I read last week) I probably wouldn't have been able to have a go with my dog as he doesn't fit the criteria.

We both had a lovely time, my friend was there with her dog and I got to watch her herd for the first time, and the sheep very much knew what to do - they weren't stressed at all.

Thanks Dave! (and Hannah )

[mjk05]

removed comments not relevant to this thread

Oh come on, Vickie!

You made some very interesting points, totally relevant to the topic, and things that were worth saying, even if people don't agree with them.

In fact, the issues you raised sparked a great conversation with my OH about the ethics of sheepdog trialling, the "point" of sheepdogs in general and how/why they benefit sheep, and I've been brewing and thinking about these things since, discussing them with other people. My position continues to oscillate, but I'm thinking deeply on it.

Its all good stuff- why on earth would you delete it?

[Are You Serious Jo]

I'm glad the ethics of a new sport is raised early on, can circumvent any potential problems that may arise later on. The welfare of the sheep has been on my mind as well, and I'll be doing my uttmost to ensure my dogs don't stress the sheep as much as possible. I realise that there will be some measure of stress for the sheep even with good dogs, but it's up to us as a whole to monitor things and not be afraid to speak up if we see things that we don't agree with.