Effective Corrections And Control

[Purple Julie]

How about both my thumbs being injured indirectly by Jyra within 6 days? Both nails were bent right back and bled and one of them broken.

I'm frustrated with trying to control Jyra. She is pretty good when there is no distractions and she is in a familiar area with no new smells. But say she sees another dog or a cat or sheep or a lure, she is a pain!!

I have 4 collar choices -

1. Flat collar, which I don't use and would be useless anyway

2. Martingale collar (like limited slip). This is the one I tend to use most.

3. Correction chain (trad. choke chain), which I don't use much as I prefer the martingale.

4. Gentle leader, which I prefer not to use, but sometimes just resort to it out of convenience, as it gives me the most control.

I really need a prong collar, but they are illegal here and I don't know how to get around that without breaking the law. (However, saying that, I do park on the nature strip near our house and you're not supposed to do that either.)

Jyra is what people term a 'hard dog'. She needs a strong correction for her to even notice. I cannot give a hard enough correction on the chain or martingale for it to be effective. The other thing is often, I can't even give a 'pop' as she is already at the end of the lead and I can't give her any slack to give a pop as she would take up the slack before the pop occurs.

If Jyra is at a herding workshop (with sheep) or at lure coursing, or if she sees a dog that she wants to have a go at, she is right at the end of the lead and dragging me sometimes! At the K9Force workshop, when Chili was near, Jyra even lifted my bottom out of the seat she was pulling that hard! Anyway, with the Gentle Leader, Jyra won't drag me so hard, but it doesn't stop her from pulling quite hard to get to what has attracted her attention. The other thing is, you can't really give a correction with a GL.

I'm fed up with this! On all forms of collar, Jyra is fine in normal circumstances, it's only when strong prey drive or aggression kicks in that she's a terror.

My left thumb has only just stopped hurting, and then today it's my right thumb that Jyra rips the nail half off. Sympathy for my poor right thumb

Just for fun, a picture of Jyra lure coursing several months ago. All credit to Tess32 who took this picture:

[Kavik]

What are you using for motivation to keep her attention on you instead of the distraction? Is it a powerful enough motivator? Is the distraction level too high when you train? Maybe you need to work at focus and attention so that she does not require so much of a correction to get her attention.

Equipment wise, if you can't control her on a martingale, and you don't want to use a head collar, I think a check chain is probably your best bet.

Hopefully some others will also give suggestions.

[Kelpie-i]

I really need a prong collar, but they are illegal here and I don't know how to get around that without breaking the law.

There are some lovely bandanas that you could use to tie around Jyra's neck....but this is what I've heard only.

[sas]

Are you absolutely positive that they are completely illegal and just not restricted?

I use a stretchy scruncy thingie aroundmine when I go to where people will ask questions, I get annoyed with the evil looks so I just cover it.

[Kelpie-i]

Are you absolutely positive that they are completely illegal and just not restricted?

They carry a $5000 fine or 6 months imprisonment...they are certainly illegal!

It's the e-collars that are restricted.

[Erny]

I really need a prong collar, but they are illegal here and I don't know how to get around that without breaking the law.

There are some lovely bandanas that you could use to tie around Jyra's neck....but this is what I've heard only.

And bandana's aren't illegal!

[Cheyenne_Fury]

If you are getting some results with the gentle leader, have you thought of using the new blackdog infin8 halter. It is fastented at the back of the head unlike other types of halters and is on a martingale collar. Just a suggestion.

Anne

[Guest Tess32]

I don't think you need more equipment, I think you need need to work on your r/ship. If she's totally shutting you out whenever there is something interesting going on then she's not looking to you as leader.

And boy does that dog get excited when there is a sheep or lure nearby! She's not linking the idea of you=satisfaction yet.

Nat

[cactus]

I know what you are going thru Julie- my Zara is the same, well she pulls hard ALL the time but when she sees something, boy! Yup- I thought i was going to get a broken finger the other day. I resorted to using the infin8 head halter *and* a choke chain- I put a short leash on both and tied the two leashes together so I had a comfortable grip. It made it more bearable, BUT you cant leave the infin8 head halter on when you unclip the leash- the dog easily pulls it off. Sooo during her romp she'd start getting rough with a little doggie and I'd just have to clip the leash to the choke chain and use the full force of my body weight to bring her back under control. I liked the Halti better because that can stay on the dog without a leash to keep it there. I had a gentle leader style halter but she broke it after after a few days of pulling hard. I dont think any of the collars you mentioned will do the trick I swear when Zara REALLY wants to go, that damned choke chain would have to embed itself in her throat before it would stop her. There have been two occassions where I just had to let go and helplessly hope for the best. I'm the last person able to give advice on this topic, but I'm trying to locate a professional who can help me with this problem- if I find her/him, I'll pass on whatever I learn.

Jyra looks Beautiful! How old is she?

All the best!

[Tilly]

Julie I also know what you are going through.

I use a Prong/Pinch collar on my GSD - he was extremely difficult to control and is very strong. The collar made a big difference to him and occassionally he still tries to push him luck but I definately have much better control over him.

I had multiple dislocated shoulders, dislocated and broken fingers, cracked bones etc - it got to the stage were I refused to even walk him and almost hated him. Now - most of the time he is great to walk - the collar is just there for the times he decides to difficult and loses his brain.

You said you did the K9 Force workshop - I believe they also sell the collars K9 Force Website.

We brought one of our collars from NSW and the other from a Qld local pet shop.

Edited for spelling...

Edited January 14, 2006 by Tilly

[Lablover]

Hi Julie,

If you are not comfortable with using a bandana for legal reasons, why not try another tool of correction, a heeling stick. Dressage length is thought the best.

I am not for one second, suggesting liberal use of the heeling stick. A quick swat/correction with good timing, may help you with Jyra.

If you like, come over again, and I will show you it is a good petting and retrieving tool as well.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Lablover

[MonElite]

move interstate

In all seriousness tho, Id get a prong, put a bandana on it - well this is what Id be doing.

Actually I would get an ecollar if I had a choice between the two - prong and electronic.

But most importantly you need to be the leader and a thinker and not put her in the situation where she will go all silly and uncontrollable.

Have your eyes open, you see another dog you walk away before she gets a chance to pull like crazy. Than for walking nicely reward.

[Kavik]

But most importantly you need to be the leader and a thinker and not put her in the situation where she will go all silly and uncontrollable.

Have your eyes open, you see another dog you walk away before she gets a chance to pull like crazy. Than for walking nicely reward.

This is what I do with Zoe

There is a house with two Maltese at the front with a see-through fence and at first Zoe would go crazy at them. I started walking at the edge of the footpath and focussing her with food. Now I can walk quite close - as soon as we get near the house Zoe looks at me and knows she will be rewarded for heeling

[Kavik]

If I see another dog I turn around and go in the other direction or cross the road. It works well, and now I can do this without Zoe going off at the other dog. I've had a few incidents lately where the dog was quite close or off lead and I was able to get her to change direction and continue on without her going off. Even when the other dog ends up reasonably close behind us, which used to really cause a problem.

[Ojay]

Who's going to enforce your use of the prong collar for everyday use anyway - not that it will be all that visible with all that hair!!! My rottie was terrible, the prong worked but without much hair (he had remarkably thin hair for a rottie) it irritated him. The gentle leader was the best for me and yes, you can do a correction with it, use a downward pop instead of upward....it worked for my horse and it worked for him.

[phatdex]

I use my prong on my Amstaff and it is very visible on him and not one person has ever mentioned his collar to me. With all the GSD hair, I wouldnt be worried at all about it.

[MonElite]

My rottie was terrible, the prong worked but without much hair it irritated him.

Do you mean it irrated his skin? Did you have one where the prongs were just cut straight or did you have a stainless steel one with prongs nicely rounded?

The gentle leader was the best for me and yes, you can do a correction with it, use a downward pop instead of upward....it worked for my horse and it worked for him.

could you please explain how do you do a downward pop?

Dog is pulling at the front of you, do you squat, put your foot on the lead?

I just cant imagine doing it, unless the dogs head is higher than my hand...

Edited January 15, 2006 by myszka

[nickyp]

I have the same issue with Emmylou (kelpiexACD). She'll be fine for ages and I'll think we're doing well, then something will set her off (like a kid on a skateboard, or coming across successive dogs on our walk), or she'll just be in a funny mood and then she's a complete pain.

I had problems with her recently after we'd been away in the country for a few days with the dogs and my first 2 walks with her were horrendous. My OH has walked her since because he gets pulled off balance less easily. There's something about Em's height to weight ratio which makes it really difficult for me to remain stable when she's pulling and darting around. I've had a taller, heavier dog and never had the same amount of trouble with being almost pulled off my feet.

I prefer to use a flat collar when I walk her because she seems to respond more readily to a sort of snap on the lead (bad description) with that on. On a correction chain she just pulls it to the limit and chokes herself. You can't get it loose enough to correct and as soon as you get any slack in it she's got it back at the limit again. I've seen her tongue going blue and she'll still be pulling and making noises like she's choking to death.

Using food does no good. She either becomes so fixated on the food that she just sits in front of me and waits for the treat and won't move at all. Or she ignores it completely because the other stimulus is more interesting.

I'm hoping that going back to regular training and taking her to herding days, etc. will reduce her sensitivity to other dogs and changes in environment generally, but in the past she's been really good at training and dreadful everywhere else, so I'm not hugely optimistic.

[Purple Julie]

Hi all. Thanks for the replies.

I am still undecided as to what to do. When we went lure coursing yesterday, Jyra was pretty good on the Gentle Leader, but I think I have heard that the GL is more of a management tool than a training tool, and I can certainly manage Jyra much better on the GL, but switch her back across to the martingale and she's hopeless! I can walk Jyra around the streets on the martingale okay, but need the GL for higher distraction situations. I think I might try taking Jyra to training with the GL on and see how we go there (unless they tell me not to use it!)

Nickyp, sounds like you have a harder time than me!

Using food does no good. She either becomes so fixated on the food that she just sits in front of me and waits for the treat and won't move at all. Or she ignores it completely because the other stimulus is more interesting.

If the dog is in high drive (prey/defence), they won't be interested in food. Jyra isn't then either. But food works for general obedience and low distraction settings for us.

I'm hoping that going back to regular training and taking her to herding days, etc. will reduce her sensitivity to other dogs and changes in environment generally, but in the past she's been really good at training and dreadful everywhere else, so I'm not hugely optimistic.

Are you going to one of Herding guy's workshops at the end of Jan? If so, which day? I am going on the Saturday. If we are both going on the same day, we must keep our dogs away from each other.

With all the GSD hair, I wouldnt be worried at all about it.

Who's going to enforce your use of the prong collar for everyday use anyway - not that it will be all that visible with all that hair!!!

Does anyone have a picture of a GSD or a medium/longish coated dog wearing a prong which they could post, so that I can see what it would look like on Jyra?

but I'm trying to locate a professional who can help me with this problem- if I find her/him, I'll pass on whatever I learn.

K9Force is the one that would be great to help you and me. But he's in Sydney.

Jyra looks Beautiful! How old is she?

Thankyou, I think so too and so do a lot of people actually! She is 3 years old, 4 in August.

[MonElite]

I belive in here http://www.k9force.net/ws113.html the GSD is wearing one below the ecollar

And in here definitelly http://www.k9force.net/prong.html

And here is my dobe with a half prong (spikes are shorter than normal), but he is a short haired dog...

http://lukrowi.pl/galeria/index.php?p=2&id...re=6178#section

Edited January 17, 2006 by myszka