New Puppy Questions

[Mitzy]

Okay, this is going to be a long one.

Mica is home since Sat. He is a 9 week old black mini poodle. Yes, I promised pictures but the batteries are dead on the camera (from taking so many pics, so I will post some as soon as the batteries are charged up).

He has been, really, good as gold, so far. He has had a couple of accidents inside, but those were my fault, I realize. He went from 8:30 last night until 5:30 this morning without having to go outside! He didn't wake for that whole time! I was getting a little worried about 3 am!

Anyway, he seems to be learning the meaning of outside, at least to urinate, we are working on the rest.

I read in a book that I have that you shouldn't use No as a command or whatever to a puppy. What do you think about that? Our other dogs know the commands No (meaning, innediately stop whatever you are doing and look at me, LOL, I guess it could be replaced with sit or some such) and Leave it (meaning drop what is in your mouth and come to me or stop what you are doing and come to me, again, could be subsituted with come, I suppose) anyway, the reasoning was to not teach negative, I believe.

My other question is this. Is there, like a honeymoon period with puppies? Or something like the terrible twos with kids? I just love him so much, even though I have only had him for a few days. And he is so good!! He seems to be learning the rules, even though he forgets (of course) from one instance to the next. He stays quiet in his crate, as long as he can see a person (preferably me) when he is awake. He slept all night last night. He really is just as good as gold!! He is much easier than my kids ever were. (I know now that I should have had poodles instead of kids!! )

Anyway, do they pick things up, then get all bratty at a certain age, like kids? and does the new wear off, then you get tired of them? I haven't ever raised a puppy before, but I love the two grown dogs my OH had when we got married. I just wanted to raise a puppy of my own and have a dog that could go and do things with me. (The two existing dogs are very old and have health issues, one is blind and one has a bad, bad back, so no walks outside the yard, beach visits, etc)

Sounding like a poodle mom, I know.

ETA: Put up pix in seperate post.

Edited May 9, 2006 by Mitzy

[Devo]

My pup was very nice for the first few days.. he was just getting use to everything and everyone..

then he started getting comfortable and a little naughtier every day..

but the more training we do and commands he learns the easier it is to controll him.

Untill he has his "crazy eye time" you can tell his about to go loose on the house, he gets this glint in his eye and you know it's on! LOL

then he falls asleep chewing something most times..

Sorry i forgot to add that I use the word NO, it seems to be the only word the he really understands and will respond to the quickest.. he knows when he's being naughty!!

Edited May 9, 2006 by Devo

[BrunoBella]

Congrats on the new puppy. Sounds like a darling.

I read in a book that I have that you shouldn't use No as a command or whatever to a puppy.

I am on my second puppy, Bruno is now 10 weeks old. I agree with the not using No command for very young pups - it's the same as kids below 6mths who don't understand anyway. If my pup is naughty I remove him from the situation (like crawling babies really) and put him somewhere safe. If he's really naughty he is usually tired so I put him to bed. I am only teaching Come and Sit at the moment. Will teach Leave It when he gets bigger.

At this age puppies have to have all good experiences - only introduce them to people who are good with dogs, don't let kids cart them around. They need to learn that you will keep their world safe for them and they need to learn to love you unconditionally.

Bruno is not deliberately naughty - he just has so many rules to learn poor baby

The following web site describes what ages you can teach puppies "No" - http://www.k9force.net/develop.html . I found this very usefull. Also describes when they learn to fear and when they hit the teenage years.

Have fun!

Edited May 9, 2006 by BellasPerson

[Mitzy]

Thanks for that site. I knew I had seen something like that before. VERY useful. I have marked it.

The following web site describes what ages you can teach puppies "No" - http://www.k9force.net/develop.html . I found this very usefull. Also describes when they learn to fear and when they hit the teenage years.

[Poodle wrangler]

Poodles are sensitive and have long memories, but I'm not sure about, "No!". I suspect it's OK as long as it's appropriate & not too harsh. Ignoring a poodle is a powerful reprimand, so no need for bellowing. Like kids, consistency is important- sounds simple, but hard to do when you're exhausted.

I found my poodle had an "adolescence" at around 9 months- 1 year old (? can't remember exactly) where he tested the limits again, then settled quickly with consistency and reminding him he was NOT one of the pack leaders. Nothing major- daily walk, no laying on beds, no sitting on lounges uninvited, more practice of basics like "give paw" & "drop" i.e. submissive positions. He has a more dominant personality, however. Good luck

[lab and poodle]

I haven't used the dreaded no word yet on my poodle, but I wouldn't get too upset if I did. I think that what happens is that trainers can get very much into the grove of telling their dogs what not to do, rather than what to do,Which is a form of nagging and frankly dosen't work after a while. (The dog gets habituated and dosen't listen) Looking on my bookshelf, I notice that Roger Mugford might have been the first one??? to ride the idea in one of his books. BTW my 14 week mini is a BOC (Backyard obedience champ) She can sit, drop, retrives ok,come, touch and is learning to heel. I do this all with positives, and she goes crazy when she sees me get the treats and her toy. She does all of these behaviours at the dog club,(You'll discover what this means) . The word is focus, and will also do them when my older dog starts to interfere. I am a very proud poodle owner.They are awesome dogs. Have fun

[Sivvy]

Its best not to use "NO" but a tone that sound like Bahhhh, or ahhhhhh. Although once in a while I say no. In my case its a heap of poodles playing in the house, being naughty, pulling out coat (hair) which is when I use the word Bahhhh with a tone. They stop and listen. But perserverance is the key to success. Poodles dont really need reminding, they just choose to be naughty, so you put them back in their place. They are a bit too intelligent and can get it over you if they want. While he is a pup, give him commands and reward him when he does good, give treats, dont over do the treats though. When the pup is older, you dont really need to give treats when they know what is expected, just reward them with GOOD BOY, and pats.

Your puppy is just being a puppy, teething stage, being willful and playful but sounds quite normal. I just find upto 18 mths they can get testing AT TIMES, but again just put them back in their place, you are the pack leader, not them.

[Christina]

Hi,

It's not all so hard.

Poodles are people dogs & they really want to please you.If he's

not crying at night he sounds fairly placid & content.There are a

million books you can read on training & each will use a different

method.Its just a matter of common sense,consistancy & connecting

with your pup.Whatever you use,no is ok,its observing & making sure

he understands you.The pup cannot obey if he doesn't get it.

Be kind but firm.Also as he will need frequent grooming remember

to train him for this.Daily gentle brush & teach him to stand still.

Look in his ears,mouth & handle his feet.Make it nice not nasty for

him so he will not be scared & difficult at the groomers.Better still

learn yourself.He is a pup so he will be naughty(in your eyes not his)

You should love him more as time goes on.The newness never wears

off for me.Patience & confidence in yourself.There is no magic 'right way'

Enjoy your baby.

[TessaBella]

Untill he has his "crazy eye time" you can tell his about to go loose on the house, he gets this glint in his eye and you know it's on! LOL

My 3 year old cat still does this. Has since we got him from the RSPCA in Tamworth. His eyes seem to 'spin' and then he gets playful and a little bit boisterous!

So I know what you mean by that!!

[fido666]

Think of this - "What action can your puppy perform in response to the word 'No'?". It is far better IMHO to use a command like "leave" or "sit" which has a corresponding action your pup can perform.

Cheers,

Corine

[Natashja]

We've had Chomsky (our 20wk old mini poodle) since mid March and the newness is certainly nowhere near wearing off. Of course, that's not to say he can be a willful little bugger at times! Yes, we have begun using the "No" command.

Sadly, OH and I are feeling a little like failures at the moment as we simply can't get him toilet trained. We're seeing a behaviourist in a fortnight to try and figure out what we're doing wrong.

Besides the toilet issues, he's a gorgeous little soul and we love him more and more each day. Enjoy your little one

[lab and poodle]

I reckon they would be "postage stamps" petty flat but boring if a bit of willfulness wasn't there. What have you done for house training? I think you need a lot of admiration for 1) getting some help and 2) publicly acknowledging it.

I know I felt pretty bad when I had to get help for our lab at the same sort of age over a different manner when he was the same age. He had assumed that he was head of the house and needed re-organising.

[JAG]

Natashja, I would think you and your OH have fallen into the trap that most new poodle owners do. Please don't take this post the wrong way but as most new poodle owners so often do fall for that cute, fluffy, naughty bundle of fun - the puppy poodle!! They are smart and they work out very early on who is the boss - THEM!!! I bet he has been picked up and cuddled and told how beautiful he is and how wonderful he is and how cute he is etc.... Well how big can ones ego get?? By picking him up all the time you are elevating him up the pecking order. He is at your height not dog height. Is he sleeping in your bedroom? Is he sleeping on your bed? Does he sit on your lap watching tv? All things that give him power. I remember you saying you thought crates were not appropriate in your house because they didn't look nice so I am not sure if you bought one for him to sleep in and use as his time out area. He is first and foremost a dog!! He needs to learn how to be a dog and that dogs have rules. We as pack leaders need to teach them what the rules are. The first one being you do not toilet in your own den! (house). If he has been crate trainined then this should be easier. A poodle is very bright and they do learn very quickly - it is us that are slow. You need to be taking him out to the lawn (or where ever he needs to do his stuff) consistentaly. You need to give him a toileting command (mine is toilet). When he gives you the correct response praise him and taken him back inside and continue playing etc. You need to do this every 2 hours at least, after he has eaten, during play time, after a nap anytime he looks like he is going to wee/pooh inside. They give you hints that they are about to do something. A slight limp of the back leg, sniffing, running in circles all are different but you need to be aware of what his cue is. Take him out and praise him. You may have to stand in the cold for up to 15mins but this will only be for a short time as he gets to know the routine. Do not just put himout byhimself as he will not understand what is required of him at this age. My now 16 week old baby was taking himself out to wee and pooh at 13 weeks of age. He will wee on command and I know he needs to do a pooh first thing inthe morning and last thing at night before bed. I wait until he has done it and then he goes into his crate which he has not messed in since day 1. His crate is his home, he loves it, it has toys and food in it. It is located in my family room where he is a part of the family but also has his own space. Once he is put to bed I put a throw rug over the crate and I don't hear a peep out of him until he is let out the next morning. All of my poodles have their own crates to sleep in in another room, Because he is a baby he is in the main part of the house but soon will go in with the others which he will accept with no trouble at all as his home is with him.

Sorry to hijack thread Mitzy. :rolleyes:

[lab and poodle]

1)Is Chomsky in reference to the American linguist, stirrer, and cognitive Psychologist?

Skinner will do when it comes to dogs (well I hope so, becuase I don't want to study any more psyc!!), but IMHO is inadequate when dealing with humans.

Look I have to say that there is a fair bit of truth in the need to establish the hierachcy but can tell you that many of the elements of how you go about it are disputed. I would say any grooming is good for establishing rank, but initiated by you. I would go as far as enforcing grooming, particually with dog tummy up. Food after you is pretty good, but I wouldn't make a fetish of it. I don't care who goes through the door first,but the main basic principal is who controls the favoured resources. The answer must be you. Simply, NILF. Sit, and dinner happens. I take away dinner, no growls, and it goes back. Growl is dinner gone. Bed , you say when to get up and when to go. Access to house: Not for puppies. You must read if you can "The culture clash" by Jean Donaldson.

My little one is crate trained, was toilet trained at 10 weeks,she gets to come out into the house under supervision and on a lead, (so she can't chase the cat) and loves the backyard. I am a little soft with her because she is quite submissive, but probably not as soft as you!!

Our lab as a young dog was a pain in the bum. He was very dominant. I could never get him to let him scratch his tummy easily. He constantly mouthed my OH's arms. She resorted to walking him for miles and miles (to calm him down) and of course it didn't work. He was very hard going to train initally and got biffed out of his first dog school. He wasn't shy about showing other dogs what he thought of himself, but got into only 2 fights. After a while, he settled down, and is one of those "character" dogs. Everyone wants to know where he is, and how he is going.

The last vestige of dominace is that he will not allow strangers to pat his head (he ducks) , and he is not safe to thether becuase he figures that he owns the spot after 10 minutes and will defend it.

He is very watchful over strange tradies etc.

I odn't get exposed to a lot of "dominant" dogs, but when I have I have always wondered what was going on, almost feeling cheated, becuase they seem a little soft, and fold up pretty easily once the rules are shown to them.

[Natashja]

Natashja, I would think you and your OH have fallen into the trap that most new poodle owners do. Please don't take this post the wrong way but as most new poodle owners so often do fall for that cute, fluffy, naughty bundle of fun - the puppy poodle!! They are smart and they work out very early on who is the boss - THEM!!! I bet he has been picked up and cuddled and told how beautiful he is and how wonderful he is and how cute he is etc.... Well how big can ones ego get?? By picking him up all the time you are elevating him up the pecking order. He is at your height not dog height. Is he sleeping in your bedroom? Is he sleeping on your bed? Does he sit on your lap watching tv? All things that give him power. I remember you saying you thought crates were not appropriate in your house because they didn't look nice so I am not sure if you bought one for him to sleep in and use as his time out area. He is first and foremost a dog!! He needs to learn how to be a dog and that dogs have rules. We as pack leaders need to teach them what the rules are. The first one being you do not toilet in your own den! (house). If he has been crate trainined then this should be easier. A poodle is very bright and they do learn very quickly - it is us that are slow. You need to be taking him out to the lawn (or where ever he needs to do his stuff) consistentaly. You need to give him a toileting command (mine is toilet). When he gives you the correct response praise him and taken him back inside and continue playing etc. You need to do this every 2 hours at least, after he has eaten, during play time, after a nap anytime he looks like he is going to wee/pooh inside. They give you hints that they are about to do something. A slight limp of the back leg, sniffing, running in circles all are different but you need to be aware of what his cue is. Take him out and praise him. You may have to stand in the cold for up to 15mins but this will only be for a short time as he gets to know the routine. Do not just put himout byhimself as he will not understand what is required of him at this age. My now 16 week old baby was taking himself out to wee and pooh at 13 weeks of age. He will wee on command and I know he needs to do a pooh first thing inthe morning and last thing at night before bed. I wait until he has done it and then he goes into his crate which he has not messed in since day 1. His crate is his home, he loves it, it has toys and food in it. It is located in my family room where he is a part of the family but also has his own space. Once he is put to bed I put a throw rug over the crate and I don't hear a peep out of him until he is let out the next morning. All of my poodles have their own crates to sleep in in another room, Because he is a baby he is in the main part of the house but soon will go in with the others which he will accept with no trouble at all as his home is with him.

Sorry to hijack thread Mitzy. :rolleyes:

Apologies Mitzy, I just want to reply to Jag's post.

Chomsky (named for the linguist/psychologist/activist), while adorable to look at is treated like a dog. He doesn't get picked up and carried around, he's not allowed to sit on us at any point (in our house, chairs and sofas are for people, not dogs) if he puts his paws up on our lap uninvited he gets ignored, he eats after us and never, ever gets food from the table.

Despite my aesthetic leanings, we did bend and buy a crate for him, tried to crate train him and had little success. So he spends most of his indoors time confined to our kitchen (about 5m x 6m space). We tried crating him at night first in the kitchen and then in our room and neither the OH or I were willing to put up with the non-stop barking or scratching at the crate at 11pm. He has recently taken to falling asleep at the end of our bed and moves onto the floor during the night. When he wakes around 6am, he puts his paws on the edge of the bed and prods me gently so I can get up and let him out to wee in the front yard. This is the only bit of toilet training that has been successful.

The issue for us of course is that while we have a good sized front and back yard, neither are fenced. So when he's out there (he never goes out there alone), he's on a 30ft lunge lead. OH and I have learnt to recognise the poo-leg twitch thing but at times the signals simply aren't there. And trust me, I'm looking for them.

I am sure that as the OH and I don't live by strict routines - while OH works from home our careers have different demands at different times - it has affected the dog. I'm willing to adopt a routine to get him toilet trained but that's where I draw the line. He has joined our pack and not the other way around...

Edited June 7, 2006 by Natashja

[lab and poodle]

Judging by what you say, Dominace is not the issue. I guess the behaviorist will sort that out with you. A Thought..

For years I worked long hours always with the thought of having a house and a Labrador. Getting a Lab meant I had to make a few comprimises,and one of them was a more regular routine. I kicked up badly, but my OH insisted. I then found that this more regular routine meant I felt better and got more done.. you never know your luck. I then gave up smoking, money was in short supply what shall I do..Train the dog! I then found that this regular diversion really improved how I felt and I got even more done. My old dog got old, and so I needed another dog to train and got my poodle becuase I have an even heavier schedule and need the diversion.. counter intuitve. I have one more month to go before I am off this list and on to some more very serious study( in addition to my relatively senior professional job). I am doing things in my life that weren't even in my Vocab as a child.

Where I come from, we are bred pretty tough. We don't show emotion, (watch old All Black film clips, Black Magic winning the Americas Cup after you lot) and I played Rugby as a forward (Lock and or flanker) for more years than my body cares to remember. I am 6ft 1'' and 16 stone.I still let my little poodle see and feel my happiness when she does something right. I am not at all subtle about it, I don't want her to be in two minds what I think. I am not above giving her a cuddle or two,(she burrows into me and makes little cooing noises.My OH is a little annoyed because she has bonded closer to me) and I have a ball with her. I don't care what the pasing traffic think. I am much more concious of what they might be thinking about my face. (I have a slight disability). I still work on NILf (Nothing in life is free) but don't let this Dominance /Submission model rule my dam life.

Do you put some good solid time aside to stimulate him? Poodles are so rewarding. I train/play with her for probably an hour a day all up. How much time does he get to just play and explore?

I think the backyard might be a bit of an issue, but talk to the expert. (I know poodles can be good apartment dogs but I don't know.) I also think the routine is an issue too, and one or other of you has to catch your dog all the time.

This is just meant as a way of sharing my experiences.Hopefully it is helpful. Too often we don't talk about the people issues behind the dog "problem"

[Natashja]

I know what you're getting at re: the person behind the dog problem. I reckon Chomsky gets enough stimulation from us - I spend around an hour and a half with him in the mornings (we do about 30 mins obedience/play then go to the park for a run around with the neighbourhood dogs) and OH takes him to the park and throws the ball for an hour later in the day. We change his toys every day, play hide and seek in the evenings when I get home from work, and now that it's winter we're both guilty of cuddling with him on the floor in front of the heater. We show him plenty of affection and lavish him with praise when he does the right thing - we just don't humanise him.

Of course, despite all that I know we're doing right, we're obviously making some kind of key mistake if the little fella is still not toilet trained at nearly 6 months of age yet can heel, sit, stay, lie down, shake hands, roll over, retrieve, and "speak". Here's hoping that the behaviourist can help us sort it out. Thanks so much for your post lab and poodle, and Mitzy, I'm so sorry for the hijack.

Tash.