Triangle Of Temptation

[Steve K9Pro]

Thanks Steve, will be trying this. My Main hold up is soemthing to tie 2 very strong dogs to. Need to go problem solve this one

K9: You can even use a large piece of ply wood, place the dog on top of the ply & tie the dog to the ply, they cant move..

[Guest Pandii]

Now this is intresting, what size ply for a rotti and how do I tie please,

[Steve K9Pro]

Now this is intresting, what size ply for a rotti and how do I tie please,

K9: Say your dog is 1m long, you get a piece 2m x 2m & tie him i the middle of it, so he is standing on the board, he cant walk away as his own weight holds the board down.

[raz]

K9: If your dog has a lot of food drive, you may end up with a way above normal dog...

You havent met my dog Actually I was really impressed with her reaction the first time I tried it. She's obviously not as dumb as she looks - just incredibly spoilt by us because she was sick as a puppy and is still being fed 5 times a day.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: If your dog has a lot of food drive, you may end up with a way above normal dog...

You havent met my dog Actually I was really impressed with her reaction the first time I tried it. She's obviously not as dumb as she looks - just incredibly spoilt by us because she was sick as a puppy and is still being fed 5 times a day.

K9: No such thing as too much drive in my book...

[Guest Pandii]

Now this is intresting, what size ply for a rotti and how do I tie please,

K9: Say your dog is 1m long, you get a piece 2m x 2m & tie him i the middle of it, so he is standing on the board, he cant walk away as his own weight holds the board down.

Thanks will be doing this in the future

[zizou]

Hi Steve,

I have to say thank you first for sharing your time on this thread for the last two years. I and surely all others appreciate your help here. Trhis thread acutally made me subscribe to this forum today. :-)

I've got a couple of questions with the technique:

I started doing TOT but I did it wrong, did distance before time so I'm intending to start all over again from tonight and do it properly. I have read all 20 pages and your main post again so I should be right for tonight.

I still have these questions though:

1. Once your dog sits for 3 minutes, does not get distracted by other dogs people etc.

What will be the feeding procedure? you still tie him up and then go inside make the food bring it out etc?

Or should you be able to say sit and stay to the dog any time and go and make dinner with the dog waiting for you?

2. this brings me to my other question,(Correct me if i'm wrong from here please) At the beginnig you say Yes when he looks in your eyes then OK when you unleash him. Then in the next stage when you teach him to sit, you say Yes once he's looked at you and sat right?

In the third stage where you extend the time of the sit do you say yes once he's completed sitting for an x amount of time?

And should you actually say sit, and sit/stay or just wait for the dog to sit automatically?

Two other behaviour questions related to this:

Even though I was doing it wrong I'll describe what my dog did, my 13 week old am. bulldog puppy was whining at the beginnig when I

went inside, once he calms down I go out, as soon as he sees me he gets excited again. I would place the food away from him then stand next to him tell him to sit, he would sit and give me eye contact but then after a couple of seconds out of impatience or whatever reason he'd bark in a high pitched noise and whine and stand up to sort of tell me to let him go. When he does this, should I tell him to sit again and try

from beginning or go back inside until he calms down? or maybe move the food further away??? Not sure what to do....

And I thought about this, if you teach your dog to obey and then get a reward and only eat in a limited timespan

are you creating a dog that is going to be very eager to eat at other times and from any other source? If lets say for example an

intruder comes into your yard and just throws a bone to your dog do you think a dog trained with the tot method

will sort of see this as easy food and go for it because usually he has to work much harder for food?

Thanks in advance

zizou

[Steve K9Pro]

Hi Steve,

I have to say thank you first for sharing your time on this thread for the last two years. I and surely all others appreciate your help here. Trhis thread acutally made me subscribe to this forum today. :-)

K9: Thanks for the kind words.

I've got a couple of questions with the technique:

I started doing TOT but I did it wrong, did distance before time so I'm intending to start all over again from tonight and do it properly. I have read all 20 pages and your main post again so I should be right for tonight.

I still have these questions though:

1. Once your dog sits for 3 minutes, does not get distracted by other dogs people etc.

K9: Not normally, no. Some dogs that have high values for other dogs etc may take a little longer but they all get it soon enough.

What will be the feeding procedure? you still tie him up and then go inside make the food bring it out etc?

Or should you be able to say sit and stay to the dog any time and go and make dinner with the dog waiting for you?

K9: yep, you should be able to give the sit command, go inside & make the food after a period f time, or many prefer to walk out with the food after the foundation if the program is trained, & then give the sit command, place the food & begin other exercises.

2. this brings me to my other question,(Correct me if i'm wrong from here please) At the beginnig you say Yes when he looks in your eyes then OK when you unleash him. Then in the next stage when you teach him to sit, you say Yes once he's looked at you and sat right?

K9: Yes when he looks, then command sit, then mark yes again when he sits.

In the third stage where you extend the time of the sit do you say yes once he's completed sitting for an x amount of time?

K9: No, when he sits it is marked with yes, along the way of the sit it is sometimes helpful to mention yes throughout the stay. At the end of the time you release with OK!

And should you actually say sit, and sit/stay or just wait for the dog to sit automatically?

K9: Do give the command or the dog will just experiment. The eye contact we don't call for because I want to make sure the dog is looking for an answer in the first step & asking the alpha.

Two other behaviour questions related to this:

Even though I was doing it wrong I'll describe what my dog did, my 13 week old am. bulldog puppy was whining at the beginnig when I

went inside, once he calms down I go out, as soon as he sees me he gets excited again. I would place the food away from him then stand next to him tell him to sit, he would sit and give me eye contact but then after a couple of seconds out of impatience or whatever reason he'd bark in a high pitched noise and whine and stand up to sort of tell me to let him go. When he does this, should I tell him to sit again and try

from beginning or go back inside until he calms down? or maybe move the food further away??? Not sure what to do....

K9: It sounds like the food is to close overstimulating him yes, I would move it further away to start with.

And I thought about this, if you teach your dog to obey and then get a reward and only eat in a limited timespan

are you creating a dog that is going to be very eager to eat at other times and from any other source?

K9: No, the dog will only be more eager to eat if A. the dog has a high food drive & or B. the dog is left hungry.

If lets say for example an

intruder comes into your yard and just throws a bone to your dog do you think a dog trained with the tot method

will sort of see this as easy food and go for it because usually he has to work much harder for food?

K9: I think any dog not trained in food refusal will go for the bone depending on how threatening or rewarding the dog see's the person as.

But, the TOT will not change this negatively, in many cases dogs learn to wait for the releae command to eat, meaning unless the intruder says ok, they don't eat.

[zizou]

Thanks again Steve,

Your reply cleared up any confusions now. And yes you were right with the overexcitement, this time I moved the food further away and he's calm and not whining or barking or anything. Going good so far. I'll have to look into how to teach a dog not to eat from strangers, I'd imagine it wont be easy..

[Steve K9Pro]

Thanks again Steve,

Your reply cleared up any confusions now. And yes you were right with the overexcitement, this time I moved the food further away and he's calm and not whining or barking or anything. Going good so far. I'll have to look into how to teach a dog not to eat from strangers, I'd imagine it wont be easy..

K9: Your welcome, food refusal isnt hard to teach but it has it good & bad points..

[zizou]

Yeah,

I did read about the negatives, I don't think I'll be doing it after all. TOT is going all right, the only thing I"m not overly happy is that my dog's realised that I unleash him when I bow down and say ok, now as soon as I start bowing down to him he'll get up and want to go before I give the ok. I just stand straight again until he sits, and try again and again until he stays seated until I unleash him. I hope this is the right thing to do.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Yep sure is, you can also if need be add a "no reward marker" which is like uh uh to indicate that getting up isnt the right move.

[zizou]

Ok I'll try that.

Thanks Steve

[Crazy Daisy]

Hi Steve, I am only new to the forum and on another thread (http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=167544), they suggested I try TOT with my 6mth puppy.

Ruff is a 6mnth old male Ridgeback x and Daisy is a 3.5 yr old Shih Tzu. Daisy has always been top dog at home and at my grooming salon but now Ruff has started to attack her during and after meals times and then 5 mins later they are best friends again, he is getting too big and I'm scared he will do some real damage one day.

Ruff has great control when I'm around. I place him in a sit and walk a couple of steps and place his bowl down, then return to him and give an "OK" command and he woofs the food down. After he's finished and I've gone inside he still attacks my Shih Tzu who is in the laundry, even after I take the bowls away and they are both finished. My question is should I put Daisy inside FIRST and feed her and then go out to the laundry and do TOT with Ruff? Also if this is going to be his area to eat dinner should I then let him inside? or can I put he straight back into the laundry so she can go outside to the toilet?

Thanks Leah

[Steve K9Pro]

Hi Steve, I am only new to the forum and on another thread (http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=167544), they suggested I try TOT with my 6mth puppy.

Ruff is a 6mnth old male Ridgeback x and Daisy is a 3.5 yr old Shih Tzu. Daisy has always been top dog at home and at my grooming salon but now Ruff has started to attack her during and after meals times and then 5 mins later they are best friends again, he is getting too big and I'm scared he will do some real damage one day.

K9: Its pretty hard to say what is causing the pack disruption but, by you stating / allowing / treating Daisy as top dog, when in fact the pack order will change often in a day depending on the resource at the time, could be adding to the problem.

Many people who highlight the top dog actually are allowing acts of dominance as it all flies under the top dog banner, & sometimes this is causing the problems.

Ruff has great control when I'm around. I place him in a sit and walk a couple of steps and place his bowl down, then return to him and give an "OK" command and he woofs the food down. After he's finished and I've gone inside he still attacks my Shih Tzu who is in the laundry, even after I take the bowls away and they are both finished. My question is should I put Daisy inside FIRST and feed her and then go out to the laundry and do TOT with Ruff? Also if this is going to be his area to eat dinner should I then let him inside? or can I put he straight back into the laundry so she can go outside to the toilet?

Thanks Leah

K9: short answer is "do anything you have to that will avoid fights, I would also consider seeing a behaviourist to have your pack assessed.

[laylatheprincesss]

I dont know if Im qualifed to answer but I aimed for the eye contact.

Here is a little video I took of my dogs, sorry about the quality and shaky hand as I was placing their food bowls on the floor wile trying to film them.

Hey thanks for that clip, very cool, I have just found this thread this morning and am VERY interested (alas I have read somewhere in the vicinity of 163 posts already) what well behaved dogs! congrats

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Ok for those who have used the Triangle of Temptation? I am not following certain bits as K9 Force (Steve) hasn't stated where the bowl is - once the dog looks at you the first time and you say yes do you a) put the bowl down or b) was the bowl already on the ground out of the dog's reach and also do you hold on to the collar shen you unclip then say Ok to release the dog and let it eat the food???

Sorry I'm blonde and also rather a visual person - wish there was dvd!

Edited August 6, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[MolassesLass]

You put the bowl down because otherwise the dog is going to look at you for the food in your hand and not leadership. You want a triangle with you, the dog and the food bowl as the points - the distance on the triangle sides depends on your training level. You next to or near the dog the food out in front of you both - the dog must look away from the thing it wants and at the handler to actually get the thing.

You aren't training a release but the look to you - so it is not important that the dog waits for a word to be released but that you release to reward the dog at the moment they do what you want - starting out with a short look and building to whatever time you want.

I'm no expert though.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

You put the bowl down because otherwise the dog is going to look at you for the food in your hand and not leadership. You want a triangle with you, the dog and the food bowl as the points - the distance on the triangle sides depends on your training level. You next to or near the dog the food out in front of you both - the dog must look away from the thing it wants and at the handler to actually get the thing.

You aren't training a release but the look to you - so it is not important that the dog waits for a word to be released but that you release to reward the dog at the moment they do what you want - starting out with a short look and building to whatever time you want.

I'm no expert though.

Ok that make heaps more sense now - thank you molasseslass!

[AustGirl]

Ok. I read the initial post and have read this entire thread.... I really really wish I came across this method a week ago... actually a year ago!

This is how I understand it from reading this entire thread as well as the OP - please correct me if I have any part of this "wrong":

For multiple pet households, do this separately with each dog away (isolated) from the other dog(s).

1. Tie dog down

2. Ignore dog + prepare food

3. Continue to ignore dog, place food bowl at a distance where it's "drive" for the food isn't severe ... almost like the food is for someone else other than itself. Once the food it at a distance where the dog stops reacting...

3. Return to the dog (if possible, the right hand side of the dog) do not say a word - this forms the TRIANGLE OF TEMPTATION. Do not be "at an angle" be by the side of the dog.

4. Once the dog looks at you (the split second it does), say YES (or use a clicker if that is your preferred method). If needed, make a noise or use its name however it must look at you willingly. Say YES as soon as it does.

5. Unleash/Release the dog and then say OK -- OK is the key command for "Freedom". Now go inside. If you cannot let the dog "out of your sight", consider doing this inside a garage or inside the house or another "safe" place. If this is not viable, double "tie down" the dog. 1st tied down is secured to a stake or similar. 2nd tie down is secure to a "secure" object. Use the 2nd tie down as your "release".

After the first 2-4 days (or when appropriate)

REPEAT STEPS 1 - 4

5. Command SIT

6. Say YES once it is seated (or use clicker if that is your preferred method)

7. Unleash/Release the dog then say OK

Next Level - TIME

REPEAT STEPS 1 - 6

7. Say STAY

8. Once the dog has been in STAY for 10 seconds say YES

Increase this time each feed time 10 second to 60 seconds to up to 3 minutes. Also vary the STAY time.

9. Unleash/Release the dog then say OK

If the dog breaks out of the STAY before you give the release/freedom command of OK - start from Step 1.

Next Level - DISTANCE

REPEAT STEPS 1 - 8

9. Now increase the distance between you and the dog whilst the dog is tied down. Increase in increments of 1 - 2 metres.

10. Unleash/Release the dog then say OK

Next Level - DISTRACTION

When you find yourself able to wander inside while the food bowl sits there UN touched by the dog, you're ready to add distraction.

REPEAT STEPS 1 - 9

10. Allow a second dog now to eat from its own bowl perhaps, remain out of site for a period of time, and change the environment to outside the front gate perhaps. These are just some ways to add distraction.

11. Unleash/Release the dog then say OK

Feel free to substitute the food for another treasure, such as a treat, ball, toy or an open back door or front gate.

It is quite safe to fast a dog for 24 hours to "prompt" it's food drive. When you do, make sure plenty of water is available and it doesn't have access to any other way to procure food.

I hope I got the above right ?

My question: I'm a Pet Sitter as my profession. Unfortunately, I'm not always booked for long stays of 4+ nights. There are a few clients who may only book me for 3 nights or less. A common problem a lot of my clients have (and thus I can have), is pulling at the leash. Are you possibly able to email me ( [email protected] ) a PDF or something that I can on-send to all my clients ?

Also, any tips you can give me to help me establish myself as the pack leader instantly with a dog esp. when I meet them for the first time? Or how I can re-establish myself as pack leader whenever I am pet sitting ? I already ignore behaviour that I do not desire, reward good behaviour (treats and/or verbally), try to tire the dog(s) out thru running/exercise.....

Edited October 14, 2009 by AussieVee