How Do You Classify 'nerves'

[wyvernblade]

I think I kind of know what good nerves in a dog are, but was thinking about it the other day and thinking, I wonder how other's classify nerves and what they look for in a dog for their chosen field/sport? I'm not an expert, but is it essentially the dog being able to focus under distraction? I know that the new Doberman I have now has very good drive (Goes nuts for his tug and flips himself trying to get it) but how do I classify if he has very good nerves? Drive I think is an easier thing to dissect? And how do you ascertain the difference between very strong drive and good nerve, i.e where is the line that you draw and you say "oh that's great drive , oh and THERE he's showing good nerve?" Has that made ANY sense, or have I just completely confused everyone?!

[Jeff Jones]

ahhh good topic,

I'm not an expert, but is it essentially the dog being able to focus under distraction? I know that the new Doberman I have now has very good drive (Goes nuts for his tug and flips himself trying to get it) but how do I classify if he has very good nerves?

generally you look at the recovery time of how long it takes once the dog has been exposed to a stressfull environment to fully recover,

know that the new Doberman I have now has very good drive (Goes nuts for his tug and flips himself trying to get it) but how do I classify if he has very good nerves? Drive I think is an easier thing to dissect? And how do you ascertain the difference between very strong drive and good nerve, i.e where is the line that you draw and you say "oh that's great drive , oh and THERE he's showing good nerve?" Has that made ANY sense, or have I just completely confused everyone?! laugh.gif

depends on a few things from the environment your working the dog in and what your doing at the time,

a dog can be working in prey drive and not be distracted by its environmental surroundings and work through stress,

this is mainly a problem of breeders of dogs with intense prey drive, (malinois and dutch shepherds).

so basically you cant work in prey drive and evaluate a dogs nerves,

dont know how i went at throwing a few ideas around i probably created more confusion

[MonElite]

When you are in Sydney wyv Ill show you some WAE videos of dobes.

Not that I like the test, but some parts will show you a difference between stronger and weaker nerved dogs.

[wyvernblade]

ahhh good topic,

I'm not an expert, but is it essentially the dog being able to focus under distraction? I know that the new Doberman I have now has very good drive (Goes nuts for his tug and flips himself trying to get it) but how do I classify if he has very good nerves?

generally you look at the recovery time of how long it takes once the dog has been exposed to a stressfull environment to fully recover,

know that the new Doberman I have now has very good drive (Goes nuts for his tug and flips himself trying to get it) but how do I classify if he has very good nerves? Drive I think is an easier thing to dissect? And how do you ascertain the difference between very strong drive and good nerve, i.e where is the line that you draw and you say "oh that's great drive , oh and THERE he's showing good nerve?" Has that made ANY sense, or have I just completely confused everyone?! laugh.gif

depends on a few things from the environment your working the dog in and what your doing at the time,

a dog can be working in prey drive and not be distracted by its environmental surroundings and work through stress,

this is mainly a problem of breeders of dogs with intense prey drive, (malinois and dutch shepherds).

so basically you cant work in prey drive and evaluate a dogs nerves,

dont know how i went at throwing a few ideas around i probably created more confusion

Ok, but WHAT does recovery mean?! It sounds like you have just operated on your dog?! And what WOULD you classify as stress to the dog? And how can you tell the dog IS stressed? See what I mean? It sounds simple, but when you actually start to think about it there are heaps of things that have to be dissected, and I think I have a GENERAL understanding, but couldn't pick apart exactly what the terms mean.! I.e my puppy has NO nerves and very little prey drive, i.e he gets very bored very quickly chasing things, and if he IS chasing something he will drop it the instant he hears a noise, or something else happens around him. BUT he is not fussed by loud noises, or bangs, crashes etc, but I still would not say he has good nerves. Does that make sense?!

[Kavik]

And the relationship between nerves and reactivity? Does high reactivity = poor nerves all the time?

And how much of this has to do with socialisation and how much they were exposed to as pups?

[Jeff Jones]

oops hit enter too soon,

Ok, but WHAT does recovery mean?! It sounds like you have just operated on your dog?! And what WOULD you classify as stress to the dog? And how can you tell the dog IS stressed? See what I mean? It sounds simple, but when you actually start to think about it there are heaps of things that have to be dissected, and I think I have a GENERAL understanding, but couldn't pick apart exactly what the terms mean.! I.e my puppy has NO nerves and very little prey drive, i.e he gets very bored very quickly chasing things, and if he IS chasing something he will drop it the instant he hears a noise, or something else happens around him. BUT he is not fussed by loud noises, or bangs, crashes etc, but I still would not say he has good nerves. Does that make sense?!

recovery is how long it takes the dog to overcome what has placed the reaction of fear into the dog....quick example, dog gets scared by sudden and loud noise of the vaccuum turning on, dog runs out of the room then turns around and re enters the room with the vaccuum cleaner running and walks over and sniffs the vaccuum cleaner.

the next time the vaccuum cleaner is suddenly turned on the dog doesnt even notice,

ahhh that example sucked lol will try and think up better one later,

to tell stress depends on the situation your in each dog can display different signs

Edited August 13, 2006 by Jeff Jones

[Jeff Jones]

And the relationship between nerves and reactivity? Does high reactivity = poor nerves all the time?

yes

And how much of this has to do with socialisation and how much they were exposed to as pups?

everything,

edit for quotes

Edited August 13, 2006 by Jeff Jones

[Kavik]

OK so high reactivity = poor nerves

But for say Schutzhund you want some reactivity right? For courage test etc?

And fo say protection - you want them to react to the bad guy and suspicious people/circumstances? and for watch dogs?

So how much etc and have good nerves?

[Jeff Jones]

OK so high reactivity = poor nerves

But for say Schutzhund you want some reactivity right? For courage test etc?

And fo say protection - you want them to react to the bad guy and suspicious people/circumstances? and for watch dogs?

So how much etc and have good nerves?

technically you do, but schutzhund dogs have been training for 18 months there not really re-acting to an unkown threat, they know the re bite/defence of handler is comming.

for protection depends on the site and what you want the dog for,

weak nerved dogs make better watch dogs as they are more reactive to sudden noises and respond with fear barking,

[Lablover]

High level dogs require solid nerves, good health (bearing in mind the breeds used - which unfortunately tend to be the ones who suffer from health issues - hip, elbows, eyes etc) and good drive.

Many government agencies around the world have various tests to gauge solid nerves.

One example when Yank was tested, they felt he had excellent solid nerves. I followed while they tested him, in new situations. Loud noises, jumping up on wobbly tables, traffic etc. Nothing worried him, nothing. But then again, at was at the stage when he nose never came off the ground, LOL.

[wyvernblade]

So good nerves basicallly translates into low reactivity to new sounds, sights, smells etc? So if a saucepan is dropped next to dog,it jumps and turns around but doesn't run squealing out of room? So what would you then look for in a working dog, i.e my pup would have 'good' nerves by that definition, he doesn't over react to loud noises, anything that startles him he will instantly turn to investigate, but he has very low prey drive, so will obviously not make a good working dog for schutzhund! What WOULD he be good for? He seems to enjoy tracking and would prefer to be wandering along with his nose to the ground rather than chasing something? That's why I started this thread, what do trainers look for, in their individual sports?! My other Dobe has amazing prey drive AND nerves,I was training with him yesterday while my sister was on the ride on lawnmower, hubby and brother in law were pulling down trees with the ute and winch and using the chainsaw, and this dog could NOT care less! He was totally focussed even when the lawnmower was actually hitting us with bits of gravel etc, he didn't even blink, let alone look. So have high hopes for him in schutzhund as I know he will concentrate 100% on his toy no matter what is going on around him. He runs straight for a loud noise to investigate, and when coming across new things (Bath lying on side in my paddock for horses, hole in the side of a shed-he jumped up and stuck nose through hole while standing on back legs!) he runs straight up and sniffs it, no fear or hesitation. Wheras other pup took ages to encourage to walk past a pile of cardboard boxes etc etc. Hmmm, put it this way, would not throw anything into a fire whilst older dobe is out, as he would chase it no matter what, could throw pups' favourite ball into a fire he would not chase it! So then that's a whole new argument, 'nerves' versus intelligence, or survival instinct?! LOL Let's not get too complicated!

[Herr Rottweiler]

The whole purpose behind Schutzhund was to produce strong nerve working dogs as the GSD club realised in the early 1900's that their dogs were losing their drive and becoming thin nerved.

There is no test in schutzhund that tests for defensive drives, as they find this undesirable trait in the dogs that they want to breed from. The courage test is designed to test the dogs fight drive and the ability to cope with the decoy advancing at the dog. More points are scored the harder the dog hits as this is an indicator that the dog is not afraid.

This is why it is so important to select from good bloodlines to begin with and socialise our puppies during the critical period to develop pups with thickened nerves so they can cope with any environmental factor.

A good security dog on the otherhand may be required to be a little thinner in nerve as the handler may want the dog to react by showing aggression to an oncomming threat. Even though a dog with defense drive, (Reactive Aggressive) may be more suitable in this type of work, there is a chance that the dog may choose to flee if the threat becomes to much.

In my experience, strong confident dogs, (Active aggressive) are not great security dogs as they will not show any visual cues to inbound agressors as they have no desire to scare them away as it is there goal to draw them in so they can bite.

[Jeff Jones]

So if a saucepan is dropped next to dog,it jumps and turns around but doesn't run squealing out of room?

the dog still has nerve problems as the dog jumped

So what would you then look for in a working dog

i research the pedigree and temprament of the parents, the dogs i own are from sch and nvbk lines, so are of the genetic make up to be acceptable for the work i want them to do

when looking through there pedigree and at the pups themself i look for strong nerves first, and prey drive second.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I define a dog with weak nerves in the following manner.

A dog with a low threshold to defence drive (flight / fight response) & slow recovery time.

I am not a believer that a dog that is startled by a loud unexpected noise has weak nerves based on that test alone. Sure if the dog goes into flight & wont recover in a reasonable time, but not a dog who jumps at the sound & then with confidence investigates the noise.

Past experiences may play a big part too...

If I have a dog that has pressure applied to him or her & that dog under pressure, you may call distraction, can still go into prey drfive I call this a dog with strong nerves as the threshold to prey drive in this dog is LOWER than a dog that will not go into prey drive & chooses to run, meaning it has a lower threshold to defence drive...

I judge a dogs nerves on its total startle response, including recovery, with various triggers...

[Herr Rottweiler]

Boyd and I have always agreed that it's not reaction that concerns us, it's the recovery time.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I am yet to find a dog that does not give some reaction to a loud noise that the dog wasnt expecting or hadnt been desensitized to.

In fact I have demonstrated to quite a few people with certified "gun sure" dogs that change the sound & the results change considerably...

[Erny]

Boyd and I have always agreed that it's not reaction that concerns us, it's the recovery time.

Count me in on that school of thought please HR.

K9:

I am yet to find a dog that does not give some reaction to a loud noise that the dog wasnt expecting or hadnt been desensitized to.

Agreeing again - I wouldn't want a dog that didn't have an ounce of awareness and reflex in him/her. As mentioned above .... it's the recovery time that is pertinent.

[Jeff Jones]

just verifying some details

Does high reactivity = poor nerves all the time?

yes

do i think a highly reactive dog has nerve issues....yes

So if a saucepan is dropped next to dog,it jumps and turns around but doesn't run squealing out of room?

the dog still has nerve problems as the dog jumped

i still stick by both answers

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I guess everyone looks for something different, but if I seen a dog laying down in a relaxed state, & a pot was dropped with no warning & the dog didnt move, I would be checking its hearing...

If I gave the dog a comand to watch something then there was a pot dropped, now that may be different..

I would also say that if a dog that startles at a pot being dropped unexpectedly has nerve problems, then I would say that all or just about all dogs have nerve problems..

Edited August 15, 2006 by K9 Force

[Jefe's owners]

LOL... I don't know about nerves, but Jefe reacts a lot to my guitar playing... and my guitar playing is not bad at all

seriously though, he reacts a lot to noises, he jumps into ready to fly/kill position (depends of the noise) yet he does not go hiding... but he does not investigate either... his head goes back into his bed and back to sleep... I don't think he's got nerves problem

Edited August 15, 2006 by Jefe's owners