Chloes Dad Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Ok I am going to open Pandora's box! Yep the which food question . I have been feeding Chloe Hills Science Diet Large Breed Puppy (26% protein 8.5% fat) at the vets recommendation, Chloe gets a Chicken wing for brekky and the SD at night. The SD is about to run out so I am looking at other things, I have been thinking Nutro Or Eagle pack due to the reviews I have heard on here. Pretty similar cost to the SD. With Nutro there are 2 puppy foods that may be suitable, the normal puppy food 26% protein and 12% fat and, the large breed (for dogs over 22 kilos at maturity) 28% protein and 12% fat. Now this is strange to me I thought large breed pet foods had a lower protein level to help combat Bone problems? For example the eagle pack has 23% protein for large breed and 28% protein for their normal puppy food and they have this statement on thier site So, have you been told not to feed a "Puppy" formula? Those references are to traditional puppy formulas with 26-32% protein and 15-20% fat; with that, we agree. I know a border collie is not a giant breed of dog yet they are still prone to the same issues if they have rapid bone growth? I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I'd like to know more about this too. I've been feeding my pup Advance Large Breed Puppy and have just seen a very rapid stage of growth in him. I specifically put him on this food to get him through this difficult stage of growth but I am not happy with the results. I know it may have been the same regardless of what I fed him but he is quite a bit taller than his litter mates now. His movement is dreadful and it's difficult to tell if this is just because of the stage of growth he is at or whether there is something more sinister underlying. He's been reviewed by a chiro who can't find anything wrong. I am putting him back onto part kibble, part bones and veges to try to slow the rate of growth a bit. He will also be on a glucosamine supplement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chloes Dad Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 He will also be on a glucosamine supplement. can you tell me what the glucosamine supplement is for in regards to bone health? also if anyone can point me in the direction of reference material on this topic that would be great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hounder Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I am also very interested in this. I was feeding mainly raw meat, chicken necks and Advance puppy growth as I couldn't get the large breed variety. When I took him to the vet the other day, he was concerned that he might be growing too quick and was at risk of developing "Ballerina"? This is where the bones are growing too quick for the ligaments and the pup ends up walking on its toes. He suggested to put him on an adult feed and reduce the amount of protein to slow his growth rate until he is about 6 months old. I now feed him a mixture of the puppy food and adult and I still give him chicken necks and the odd tin of sardines. Just looking at the nutritional values and I'm worried he now won't be getting enough fat. We never had this problem with Bree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylie Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 As a breeder i personally believe that puppies should be taken off Puppy food and put on adult food as soon after they leave home. Puppy food tends to grow pups to fast. Puppies need slow growth an adult food will give that to them. The only thing i would possibly supplement with is Fish Oil and Vitamin C. Adding calcium is a big no no in my books. Other food which can be used would be Chicken parts, lamb flaps, beef cheeks or other meaty beef pieces, meaty pork pieces etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Chloe's dad - glucosamine is about cartilage growth rather than bone growth. It has to do with the joints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I'll bet this is one of those many things where there's no good answer . I feed all pups the same. Some of 'em grow rapidly. Some of 'em grow slow. Some of the rapid growers have ended out with bad hip and elbow scores. Other rapid growers score out well. I suspect genetics has been more important than diet, but perhaps the genetics could have been expressed differently if the diet was tweeked. I doubt you could run a scientific test that began to assess the question for less than a few hundred thousand dollars . . . and it would still leave lots of questions unanswered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chloes Dad Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 As a breeder i personally believe that puppies should be taken off Puppy food and put on adult food as soon after they leave home.Puppy food tends to grow pups to fast. Puppies need slow growth an adult food will give that to them. Thanks for the Reply Is it the lower protein level in the adult foods that is the reason you recommend doing this? I went for SD large breed puppy aat my vets advice because it pretty much has the same protien level as the SD adult (puppy is 26, and Adult is 25) or are there other factors of puppy food besides protein that you are concerned with in relation to rapid growth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hounder Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 According to my vet, protein is the chief growth factor. That is why he recommended taking my pup of puppy food and reduce the amount of raw meat. He recommends 70/30 of adult kibble and meat. It will just mean bigger poos with adult kibble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 It is not the amount of protein that is important, but the quality of the protien. Here are two excellent articles on the topic: Protein in the Diet: http://b-naturals.com/Nov2005.php Protien amounts and Puppies: http://b-naturals.com/Jan2004.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 You could try her on puppy Giant breed food. Royal Canin is very good and the dogs love it. This is really intended to slow the growth as the giant breeds are particularly at risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hounder Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 It is not the amount of protein that is important, but the quality of the protien. Here are two excellent articles on the topic: Protein in the Diet: http://b-naturals.com/Nov2005.php Protien amounts and Puppies: http://b-naturals.com/Jan2004.php That was very interesting thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 It is not the amount of protein that is important, but the quality of the protien. Here are two excellent articles on the topic: Protein in the Diet: http://b-naturals.com/Nov2005.php Protien amounts and Puppies: http://b-naturals.com/Jan2004.php Not to be a pain in the arse, but those articles can hardly be said to come from an independent source, and -- apart from general knowledge statements about the balance of amino acids and a few tangential points -- the sources they site are mostly from pet food companies and one unpublished PhD dissertation. What is required is a report on systematic trials with good statistical control, conducted by a party with no vested interest in the outcome, and peer reviewed to (hopefully) catch any serious flaws. I am not saying that "b-naturals" are dishonest. But the quality of the scientific evidence presented is as flimsy as that used by cigarette companies to 'prove' that smoking is good for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 (edited) I know Lew - the person who wrote the articles - and she is a fairly thorough researcher. What she has presented is the known research available on the issue. She has also presented it is a form for lay people to understand. The evidence is 'flimsy' as to date this is the only evidence available. The only source of most (if not all) research into animal (dog and cat) nutrition are pet food companies. They are generally the only ones that have the money to do it - no real 'independent' research gets done in this field unfortunately (and unfortunately as a result, research results which the pet food companies don't want known tends to get buried - I have seen people lose their funding and their jobs over research that was not in the companies interests). Of course if anyone has the money to fund an independent study or knows someone who will, please step forward. I know a LOT of people who would appreciate not having to prostitute themselves to the pet food companies to get their work done! On a personal note - I feed raw. I feed them a low/no carb diet and the diet is high in protien (quality protein in the form of raw meats). Probably a lot higher than any commercial pet foods available. The only modification I make to the adult diet is to feed more meat (protein) and a little less bone (calcium) to a growing pup. I am extremely pleased with the results from this type of diet. Edited March 17, 2007 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Espinay,I second what you state above.I utilise the same Dietary approach and never had a problem in any way. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 (edited) I know Lew - the person who wrote the articles - and she is a fairly thorough researcher. What she has presented is the known research available on the issue. She has also presented it is a form for lay people to understand. The evidence is 'flimsy' as to date this is the only evidence available. I apologise for using the word 'flimsy'. However, I think we're all better off admitting that the best available evidence on diet is often weak. Having accepted this, we should be able to operate knowing that we're all operating on 'best guess' reasoning . . . and anyone riding a high horse can be seen as someone making a fool of themselves. I personally tend to BARF diet, but not because Billinghurst's scientific evidence is compelling . . . simply because it has 'face validity' . . . ie, it sits well with how I think about the world. That said . . . I think there is some objective data on one aspect of bone growth. Would take awhile to dig it up, but I am reasonably certain that there are independent vet school studies showing that calcium supplementation is bad -- it wasn't the petfood companies that made it unfashionable to pour Sandoz syrup over the puppy chow. Edited March 18, 2007 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 (edited) I apologise for using the word 'flimsy'. However, I think we're all better off admitting that the best available evidence on diet is often weak. 'scientific' evidence that is. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence passed down for many many generations. It is only in the past 50 years or so that it has been derailed by the need to have everything 'scientifically proven'. Lack of evidence though shouldn't stop us from looking at the evidence we have. Should I not have posted the articles for people to have a look at? There are many myths about protein which I think need to be addressed. To my mind the articles presented a good starting point for people wanting to look further for themselves into the protein issue. I also think they raise some interesting issues. For example, exactly when did protein become the 'bad guy'? . . and anyone riding a high horse can be seen as someone making a fool of themselves. I am not sure what is implied by this . I presented a couple of interesting articles which got shot down in flames for not being 'scientific' or 'independent' enough. I merely provided extra information to clear up a few points. If that is riding my high horse and being a fool then so be it. I personally tend to BARF diet, but not because Billinghurst's scientific evidence is compelling But also.... What is required is a report on systematic trials with good statistical control, conducted by a party with no vested interest in the outcome, and peer reviewed to (hopefully) catch any serious flaws. .....I am not saying that "b-naturals" are dishonest. But the quality of the scientific evidence presented is as flimsy as that used by cigarette companies to 'prove' that smoking is good for you There is a lot of what Billinghurst writes that I don't agree with. There is some that I do. In my opinion he presents some good practical advice that is worth looking at. And also some very shoddy 'science' which has been blown out of the water on more than one occasion (even more flimsy that that provided by cigarette companies). That said . . . I think there is some objective data on one aspect of bone growth. Would take awhile to dig it up, but I am reasonably certain that there are independent vet school studies showing that calcium supplementation is bad. I would be interested in seeing these. Most vet school nutrition research is funded heavily by pet food companies, but if you do have some funded by another independent source I would be very interested to see them as to date I have not come across any truly independent studies. Thanks! Edited March 19, 2007 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hounder Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 That said . . . I think there is some objective data on one aspect of bone growth. Would take awhile to dig it up, but I am reasonably certain that there are independent vet school studies showing that calcium supplementation is bad. I would be interested in seeing these. Most vet school nutrition research is funded heavily by pet food companies, but if you do have some funded by another independent source I would be very interested to see them. Thanks! It has been recommended to me on several accounts not to supplement calcium for giant breed puppies. Giving natural with chicken necks and egg shells etc is okay, as it has the right ratio but to add calcium such as in a concentrated powder form is a big no-no. As for commercial foods, whether vets have a financial interest or not, contain all the required nutrients for a growing pup. If you add extra calcium supplements you would be more likely to give an overload and cause muscular-skeletal problems. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) It has been recommended to me on several accounts not to supplement calcium for giant breed puppies. Giving natural with chicken necks and egg shells etc is okay, as it has the right ratio You can still feed too much calcium in some cases even with raw. The reason it is stressed that you need to feed raw MEATY bones. In most cases it will not matter, but in some cases it can be better to reduce the percentage of calcium even from natural sources. Different proponents of raw have a different take on how to go about this - ie Billinghurst suggests increasing the percentage of vegetables (see 'Grow your pups with Bones' for example) while others recommend increasing the amount of meat in proportion to bone (see Tom Lonsdale's work for example - the articles listed above and others on the same website also give good reading in this respect) As for commercial foods, whether vets have a financial interest or not, contain all the required nutrients for a growing pup. We could debate that 'till the cows come home I think . Personally I have no such faith in commercial companies which make products based on 'substitutes' for nutrients occurring in a natural canine (and feline) diet using decisions which are for the large part based on economics. I do agree with you on not adding calcium supplements, however. JMHO Edited March 19, 2007 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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