BJean

Personally speaking, Supercoat is probably the last supermarket food I would feed. For a value for money dry food, I highly recommend Great Barko or Uncle Albers which are Australian made. On occasions, I have also fed my lot the Woolworths brand Chicken and Rice dry food which I am told is manufactured by Coprice, as is Woofbix which is available at Big W (same food, different packaging).

what's the difference between great barko and uncle albers?

i sometimes get unlce albers at the feed store for when i run our of meat/bones/cut offs etc

and apart from unlce albers having slightly more (think its 2%) protein than great barko

what's the difference between them, - they're the same price and made by same manufacturer?

More Anatolian:

ANADOLU

COMARKAAN

IKTIDARLI

KORUMAK

KLASIKKARS

SIVIRI

Question, Lilli:

Don't you want an LGD to become "neutralised" to certain things anway? For example, say the first time a car drives past the dog thinks that's a big deal. If you lived by a road, you wouldn't want that to continue. The dog needs to figure out that cars are commonplace and can be ignored. Which goes back to my question about neutralisation being somewhat natural anyway. I think I must be making sweeping generalisations and missing the difference, here.

Yes and it would become indifferent to passing cars if passing cars were frequent - at same distance / speed.

ie: on one property on Western Hwy (west Vic)

the dogs ignore the 1000s (?) of trucks that pass each day

but should a truck / car slow and divert from 'what is normal' then this will get the dog's attention.

I doubt that I explain properly corvus, but I try anyway

When I refer to the described neutralisation:

I prefer to neutralise my dogs to everything accept me & what I can give the dog. So that is me, my affection, praise, pats, prey items & food that my dog finds valueable, not anything else.

I think good LGD should value and needs to value other things, not just what comes from the owner -

but anyway as I said I think neutralisation is good for trainiing goal as indicated in this thread

but imo it would be counter producitve to LGD's goal and temperament.

I dont want my dogs tossing up if they would rather come to me or go play with another dog.

This opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to dog parks, meeting friends & letting your dogs play etc.

See if I call my dog inside and they turn around and ignore me and run towards the back paddock, I like that - they need to be able to do that -

to put what I want on pause until fox/stray/something(?) in paddock is removed / gone.

likewise if there is a big raucous at 3am and I call them inside but they refuse and raucous go on and on

I call and still they ignore me (other dogs are quiet why they go crazy in the dam paddock???)

so I get up angry what's going on out there -

and I find foal seperated from its mother in distress and caught up in the fencing -

had the dogs valued only what comes from me and recalled to the house obediently when I called them, then I would not have known the foal was in danger.

The dogs here are not barking to protect the foal, but the foal by being on the wrong side of the fence, was breaking the 'order' / routine that the dogs value - to them most things seem to have their time / place - the foal in the fence disrupted this, hence the carry on over the disruption.

L: interesting discussion / concept / strategy wrt neutralisation

like Nat/Tess32 others have said -

i think neutralisation depends on the purpose of the dog -

if I have a dog and its purpose is to act on its instincts - and it is these instincts which guide it

then neutralisation and stock guardian dog will be counter productive -

K9: Thats dependant, you seem to be reading that it removes instincts, when nothing removes instinct. Say you had a LGD with very high prey drive, wanted to chase & down every Lamb it laid eyes on? Not productive either.

I am reading that if instinct is to go out and assess situations and act on its own voilition - and that is relied upon -

then to redirect that on to a person is counter productive for the dogs purpose.

If the dog is neutral to outside stiumulus, then the dog is counter productive, bcz it the dog's action upon that stimulus with no human overseer which is valued.

I think a LGD with high prey drive is about as useful in working capacity as a GSD with no nerve? Yes both are not producitve, as I said, purpose of dog matters.

I think with some strong tempered LGD individuals (atypical) neutralisation could produce opposite of

"suitability for domestic life situations".

K9: You need to understand the value of zero compared to an unsociable dog.

BUT if I had dog whose focus I wanted on me all the time, like GSD, Rotti, Lab

then neutralisation seems like logical / necessary training ethos for absolute reliabilty.

K9: I never train dogs by breed, but by goal & temperament. The GSD's that we get to work as Patrol dogs can not focus on the handler, yet are neutralised.

I think also it is important to undersatnd existence of unsocial dogs, and why many atypical ASD and CAO are typically 'unsociable'.

If I take goal - to make reliable response dog with temperament of atypical specimen

then the two will not ideally intertwine - unless

owner live in rural area

but in suburban setting will not work because of high defence, territory and aggression.

YB:

So when we are talking neutralisation we need to think in tearms of reward for ignoring the surroundings ok so if the dog is totally focussed on something and we cant get there focus back to us what do i do wait tit out jump up and down until the dog realises i exist or hit myself on the head for putting the dog into a situation he wasnt ready for

K9: the best trainer in the world sets up everything, he or she is active, not reactive.

If you found yourself in thats situation I would correct the dog away & reward for leaving.

How does isolating puppies from 'the pack' compare to pack life 'in the wild'? (As, obviously, 'in the wild', pups would be with the adult dogs and not by themselves.)

If I may attempt a suitable answer :-

Many unwanted behaviours exhibited by dogs are actually "normal" in the wild and, in the wild, would not be seen as a "problem behaviour". Most problem behaviours exhibited these days are only "problems" due to our own domestic requirements and social standards.

Therefore, I doubt that a "neutralisation" program such as K9 describes would be necessary in the wild. Hence, it would IMO be inappropriate to draw comparison between pups in a wild dog pack to those required to live in our domesticated environments.

Neutralisation is a programmatic method that can be used to chanel and mould a dog's instinctive behaviour and goals into a behaviour more suitable for domestic life situations.

interesting discussion / concept / strategy wrt neutralisation

like Nat/Tess32 others have said -

i think neutralisation depends on the purpose of the dog -

if I have a dog and its purpose is to act on its instincts - and it is these instincts which guide it

then neutralisation and stock guardian dog will be counter productive -

I think with some strong tempered LGD individuals (atypical) neutralisation could produce opposite of

"suitability for domestic life situations".

BUT if I had dog whose focus I wanted on me all the time, like GSD, Rotti, Lab

then neutralisation seems like logical / necessary training ethos for absolute reliabilty.

Sway, Allerzeit and the sweat shop you have done a great job!

A few more:

Central Asian

ATABRAI

Anatolian

AUSTURK

BERDINA

BOULIAKID

BULLMONARCH

CAPPADOCIA

COBANKOPEGI

COMARKAAN

CORDANNAO

COTTELLI

GLENBANK

HAYSIYET

HILLSBOROUGH

IRADENE

KARABASH

KAPLICA

KORUYUCU

NIVRI

NILIAMONGUP

ROBINHILL

RURALSENTRY

STOCKWATCH

TAYSY

Kangal

KARETAKER

Also, prefix TAKAS is for Anatolian and Kangal, not Central Asian. Thankyou

I guess my question is:

Should I be increasing the fence's height? and to what?

or should I be looking at something else?

can you hot wire the fence? A line of hot tape a foot out from the fence stop dogs jumping.

training experiment?

We can assure you easily that in it's place positive training works brilliantly, as does medication when warranted. If your breed and knowledge says different to that, then why would you experiment with your dogs?

bcz +ve training is supposed to work for all dogs.

its the intelligent, more advanced, training technique -

corrrections are bad, they in fact manifest the unwanted behaviour.

the theory of dominance is bunk and irrelevant - physical correction of your dog is backward and cruel.

so either I am wrong with my choke chain, or +ve training espousal should be edited -

like all training techniques' ethos -

+ve training doesn't suit all dogs, just some.

i probably haven't given +ve training a go, I've let breed dictate how / what my dog can and can't do -

this is what I hear if I say reward based training isn't effective on some of my dogs.

I can't see how the +ve training ethos explains my dogs' behjaviour -

but maybe a +ve expert can.

Lilli,using medication in my experience is not common or the right way to go.

Lilli,not wanting to be a wet blanket but I would have some big concerns about your supposed experiment.

Firstly I would query this Person's level of knowledge given them suggesting use of a Halti.

Secondly has this Person got any idea at all about the breed characteristics of your Breed, or have they just handled quite old Hounds raised around the Kitchen?

Lilli,I think your better having more faith in your own knowledge of your Breed which is a working breed and still carrying out its original purpose which to me is a breath of fresh air!!!!

I have to agree wholeheartedly the supposed cause of being upset is hogwash!!!!! Tony

Thanks Tony, I didn't think it was

although perhaps that what happens to all the dogs that don't fit the norm -

they dumb down their instincts with medication...

the person comes very highly recommended and much experience working with aggression -

they are aware of the dog's breed - but apparently breed is not so important.

i'm very sceptical - but i don't like the +ve brandish (not upheld by all +ve trainers), that it suits all dogs and using corrections are cruel, damaging the relationship between dog and owner: +ve training is the modern advanced intelligent technique, use of choke chains is antiquated and uncouth.

nb: my dogs will not be receiving any medication - they are normal for their breed.

as part of my positive training experiment i have found a vet. behaviourist for two of my dogs

i want to see if positive training works (i think it won't here, but i want to see how we go and the ethos, management systems behind it.) if my dogs are 'domesticated' and what i think about their instincts are wrong, I want a positive trainer to proove it with my dogs. in my trainer's 'positive only' world, choker chains are out and its flat collar or halti. (i'm opting for thick flat collar as i dont want dead dogs bcz a trainer was so sure about the ability of a dog to 'not pull' in a halti.)

anyway i explain the two dogs, and one of the things mentioned is medication

apparently my dogs are upset which is why they are aggro.

that doesn't sound right to me, why would the two most confident, outgoing of my dogs be upset?

why is a mental disorder, more plausible than rank dominance? or strong sense of territory?

(makes note to self to ask trainer)

anyway, i was wondering, how common is the administering of medication with DA dogs?

All my dogs live on 7 acres and are really active. I'm careful not to let them over exercise, but, how much exercise are giant breeds allowed during this growing period?

if the boerboel is a natural breed, then it won't 'over exercise' itself -

ie: they will not hurt themselves by running / walking / playing at their own leisure - it is good for them.

i would allow them to do whatever they do on their own accord.

if the pup gets tired she will sleep

He's a Golden Retriever. I thought they were supposed to be mellow?! We live semi-rurally on a house block (not acreage) but can walk to the beack and the creek. He has a good life, and he better learn some self control!

yep read previous posts and realised you had a GR

GRs can be very very active dogs -

self-control is hard when the dog has a lot of energy it needs to expend.

did you pick the puppy yourself, or did the breeder choose him for you?

an active GR will probably never really be 'mellow'.

All the trees in the backyard, countless numbers of matchbox cars, toys, balls, books, three bikes, a trampoline, a swing, a barbecue cover, wagon, scooter, two chairs, shoes, THE HOT WATER HEATER, a pigeon, and his own crate. The BBQ cover and the wires on the hot water heater, I sprinkled with chili powder. This did not deter him. Most of this destruction happens in the backyard, where I put him for an hour each morning, while I get the kids ready for school (or for a few minutes while I'm hanging laundry). If I'm going to be gone for a few hours, I lock him in the laundry room with his crate. And he always settles down. Last week, I put the crate outside for him when it was raining, and he dragged it into the middle of the yard and started chewing it! The kids have no bikes left! He takes any opportunity to destroy them, waits until you turn your back for a second and then goes for it. I have to keep him on a lead when the family is outside playing together.

I walk him. I train him. He's been to puppy preschool, obedience one. I buy him bones and Kongs, which he digs massive craters to bury!

He is constantly in trouble and is costing us a fortune! Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

incredijack, you have a jack russell terrier? no you have a golden retriever?

where do you live - suburban, rural -

if the dog is always 'on'

maybe you need to take the dog back to the breeder and get a dog more suited to your family's energy levels?

with young children and super puppy, you must be exhausted

Yeah, sedatives.

:nahnah: lol thought of that, get me at a wrung out moment, and i've considered the permanent kind

Apart from that, good, strong enclosures.

You can use controlled set-ups to train just about any behaviour you want, but making it a permanent change which is generalised to a wide variety of different situations takes considerably more work and would not be practical. Some of those genes were wired with the wrong fuses, right?

i don't think small enclosures are practical, as i can't put other animals in as well - paddocks are the best option with dog proof fencing

certain DA I don't think training / behaviour modification can remove, sometimes DA is part of the whole package -

her genes were wired with the right fuses - she just a kazakhstani tsarina.

ETA:

woops thanks -

realised the orignal solution - ASD's girl stay is now strictly short term

I don't have any behavioural advice to offer.

But physical separation could work - I'm not sure of your set up, but if that and your finances permit perhaps an enclosure for the visitor akin to the type that is required for dangerous dogs? Large, made of a chain link gauge strong enough to keep the CAO out, with a chain link roof if the CAO climbs and a concrete floor or similar to stop the her digging in. Ensure that the enclosure is not visible, and far enough away from the CAO's yard that she doesn't continually smell or hear the visitor. Other than that, a rehome might be best.

thanks wobbly we have physical seperation at the moment - but unless i had cyclone fencing and concrete floors et al (as oppsed to paddocks) i wont leave both outside at the same time.

lol have decided that the ASD's stay is not going to be for much longer

Thanks Shell

I should probably point out that I don't expect the DA to be changed, but am looking for ways for it to be less intense. So travelling to a behaviourist would be wasted, as I think anything effective can only be done working with the dogs in their environment

Another dog of mine is DA and doesn't like another young resident male, but they can coexist on the property in their seperate areas outside. Of course if they got near each other, it would be death or serious maim, but one is not obsessed with the other. They might have a growl through the fence line, but one won't then decide to dig a good 2 - 3 metres underground just to actually get to the other dog.

Or try to climb through windows - the alpha girl is very intelligent and uses all her analysing skills to look for possible weak points in the obstacles that prevent her from getting to the ASD.

sometimes - depending on the motivator - desexing already DA female dogs, actually makes them worse

I think this has something to do with where the dog is in her estrous cycle when she is desexed?

not so much to do with being in cycle when she is desexed,

but the removal of cyclling itself from already DA bitches.

So the decrease in estrogen - which can be a pacifier in some bitches.

ie: the absense of varying estrogen, progesterone actually makes the bitches more DA.

Desexing is not 'changing' their temp, but removing the cycling - therefore hormone pattern - can intensify it.

I have a 4yo alpha CAO bitch (generally DA)

intent on removing another ASD bitch of mine.

The ASD bitch was only a temporary guest, but it looks as if she will stay for a few more months - I'm not sure when her owners can take her back.

I can seperate them, but bcz the conflict is so intense, very tiring

The CAO bitch is intent on getting to the ASD bitch, to probably kill her.

i have put barbed wire atop of mesh fencing to remove the idea of fence climbing.

I have no expectations or illusuions that they can ever be remotely together, but would like to know if any behaviourists successful with DA can perhaps provide something, to reduce the intensity of intolerance.

I can't think of anything, but you only see your dogs through familiar eyes.

I'm in east vic.

Thanks guys, I guess this is not one of those things I can DIY. I'm going to see if Fossil can be desexed during her eye-operation this week (if they put her under for that) at the same time, then I think I should give her some recovery time before attempting this. There are a few training places that are local to my area, so I'll book in someone to come out to our house. Fingers crossed they can do something because I don't like the idea of permanently seperating them, it's too stressful worrying if someone will accidently leave a door open.

sometimes - depending on the motivator - desexing already DA female dogs, actually makes them worse

It's a bit of a blight on the landscape of this new venue for me, but it doesn't destroy the entire place. I will be taking my animals there, I'll just be circumnavigating this particular vet. So no, I'm not judging the entire place, but I will tread carefully. As it happens I had a pretty positive experience with Narre Warren Nth clinic and they're moving to this clinic, so that's a good thing.

you must have been just round the corner from me

but i agree - it adversely affects the landscape - interesting about the vet - sending you a PM .........

kap do you work there or have a vested interest in promoting woofpurnay?

Protexin will also help settle the gut

i use it with over gorged baby puppies

and find it works very well.

I wouldnt call it stiff puppy - Id call it wooden puppy. When you see it you just cant believe it.Especially when they go from that to back to life!

this will sound a tad awful

but when my stiff pup was in one of its wooden phases i actually placed it on its paws on the table to see it would stand like an ornament

but his front paws were at the wrong angle so he fell over.

remained stiff in fallen position for another 10 / 20 seconds and then transformed back to a 'normal' pup.

Lilli I wish I had something to give you to help you to give this a fair go but it has me stumped and I think perhaps

we should do blood tests on the bitch and the pups so we can compare them and hopefully find a common link.

Its the only thing I can think of which may provide some answers.

Im so sorry you're living through this .

this morning the puppies' outlook appeared more promising.

all are getting .2mL of demotix intermittently (max 2mL / 24hours)

male1 is nursing again but still receiving drop of glucose four times a day.

puppies are now four days old.

bumping this back up as i lost one of my male pups at three days old to this stiff puppy phenomenom.

any other occurences?

tube feeding another pup who showed similar pre-stiff symptoms -

will add in my account of stiff puppy when less tired.

i *think* where the dog has one hip xrayed and assessed as HD

and the other hip is normal

it suggest the HD is the result injury/environment

rather than genetic HD.

(not sure if genetic is the right word as there is always a genetic component...

hmm not thinking well today...)

think 'hereditary' could be a better word.

Hi,

am just curious if anyone has used these methods and your thoughts http://www.k9wavelength.com.au/

one of difficulties i have with objectively reading these types of training packages

is that i feel i am being sold a franchise.