BJean

Hi Lilli. From what you are saying, there are some breeds who have more of the wolf style pack structure. Very interesting.

Hi jesomil ;)

I don't know enough about wolves to be able to make that comparison to their pack structure

but what I do know, is that some breeds of dogs do have a set pack structure - yes -

and this was necessary to allow them to live and 'work' together, moreover it made them safe around humans.

Also Anatolians for instance, although they existed alongside their herdsmen

they were pretty much left to fend for themselves.

They also, apart from receiving a very minimal diet from the herdsmen, hunted for themselves.

This is why I believe that the previously mentioned 'nose punch' is so normal for the breed, and not other behaviour being misread.

Another ancient flock guardian breed - the Caucasian Ovcharka (which many believe shares the same ancestoral history as the Anatolian) is another breed of dog that is so pack / defence / territory orientated, that it is quite unique in its defensive abilities - however it is considered a dog for rural / isolated areas only - and is another breed that would challenge and take on a human as if it was another member of its pack.

These dogs are quite unique in their pyschological make up - I find them fascinating - but they definitley see the world with a strong sense of order, where everything has its place.

Ancient flock guardians - being landrace breeds - come from a place and a way of life before our time - it is why I am so passionate about preserving the pockets of these dogs that still exist (okay its offical I'm a LGD geek ).

You have basically said what i thought goes on with a domesticated dog pack.

I just got a bit confused because some people were adament on the set structure of our dogs and i was finding that hard to understand and believe.

Working LGDs need a strong sense of pack hierachy as it prevents a lot of serious incidents from occurring.

Even LGDs that aren't strictly working - so even two living together in what could be described as a suburban domestic dog pack, will have this characteristic.

If you were to see three Anatolians for example working OR living together

you would not find such a pack structure peculiar.

In fact many problems that owners face with these dogs is that don't believe that their dog

seriously views the world from an ingrained pack perspective.

When considering the possibilty of a set pack structure with these dogs,

consider the expanse of time from which they evolved and that they were bred to work alongside man and not 'for' him. That these dogs were selected for their independent guarding and defence abilities, and somewhat of a psychological ascendancy - they will accept that a dominant dog or human controls a situation but if they see insecurity they will attempt to claim that leadership.

A set pack structure strictly enforced, stopped large, powerful very territorial dogs which had to co-exist from entering into serious altercations.

Anatolians tend also to get along better with their 'own' (ie: Central Asian, Sarplaninac, Maremma, Komondor) than with other more recent breeds. This has been attributed to the possibilty, that amongst themselves, flock guardian breeds read and respect signals, that other dogs may not be aware of and/or don't pick up or respond to.

I've spoken to hundreds of dog owners and breeders and exhibitors and only twice come accross people whos dogs did the 'nose push' !

Are you saying all the dogs you know do this ?

Yes - whether it's a short lived toy or an unfortunate possum or large rat / vermin that has strayed into my dog's territory.

That's 15 years being entertained by Anatolians and their antics

and 6 years incorporating Central Asians into the mix.

And not just my dogs - other breeders and owners comments also

ETA: One poor male relative received a nose push (punch) to the groin when he went outisde to visit the dogs.

I told him the dog was just saying hello, in a friendly but assertive manner

I was amazed the first time I studied this and realised that the dog I have now does the 'Kill'. He picks up his toy monkey shakes the living daylights out of it (killing it) then drops it on the floor. He then proceeds to push it hard with his nose (mouth closed) and looks quite strange. Of course it's a toy, but the actions are exactly the same and obviously something inherant in him.

I thought this was how all dogs play with any toys

or with any kill?

I would be interested in peoples opinions on this topic especially some of the gurus.

First up in a pack there is the leader, then there are the others. I think we all agree on that.

Do you think the others are are in set rank position right down to the bottom dog or do you think the rank is something that changes regularly or do you think there is no rank at all??

Can you number exactly which dog is in which position?

I am interested in peoples opinions because i would not know who was what with my dogs. They seem to all be fairly equal. Sometimes one of them seems a little more dominant but then the next minute another may seem dominate. Never anything major, just little subtle things.

My boy is dominant with other dogs out of the house but in our little pack, they all seem to be the same.

Here is my non guru's opinion on dog pack behaviour

first my opinion is based on observing my dogs (quite primitive breeds)

interact with each other - over all ages, dog/bitch

and also their interaction with the occassional mixed breed rescue.

My dogs have a rank from number one to last.

Number one is the alpha female. The older male who she contested for this position still 'owns' the couch, but as she grew up as a pup with him she has accepted this "order" and he has precedence on that territory.

Also she is not allowed on the couch, and as inside the house is 'mine', the older male on the couch is allowed.

My alpha female has a very strong sense of order and house rules.

If a puppy goes through the open back door, (and she knows that is not allowed) she will block the puppy off and force it to the ground.

The older male used to be number one outside, but now the alpha female decides when any discarded bones are no longer hers. She will also push lower ranked dogs, or sometimes barge them right out of the way so she is in closest proximity to me - she will also discipline a young dog and run across the yard to do so, if she see an exhuberant young pup jump up on me in play. The lower ranked dogs give way to the higher ranked dogs to stand closest to myself, or the back porch etc.

The old male and alpha female allow no other dog into the kitchen if they are in there with me - the older male and alpha female are never allowed in this area at the same time as this territory is still in dispute between the two of them.

The 7 month male is very submissive towards the older male (he 'tippy toes' when going over an area where the old male has been) - I do not run them together as an altercation would ensue and the 7month old is too much for the aged male, but the old boy doesn't know this and will die before he relinquishes.

Oddly the 7 month old male on arrival thought that he could dispute the alpha female - she gave him few warnings and when he paid no heed severely reprimanded him.

Both the old male and the alpha female are very dominant individuals and enforce their rank with physical altercations if their snarls, growl, shouldering etc do not stop the lower ranked dogs.

The seven month male is more a big doofas than very dominant (even when mature he will not be as dominant minded as the old male). doofas is the boss of the young female only because he is bigger and she also is very submissive by nature.

The pack order in my dogs is not fluid over resources and does not change on a weekly basis - everything outside belongs to the alpha, if she is not outside, then it belongs to the old male. Only when they have discarded an item can another dog go near it.

While the dogs are young, or for a few weeks while a new dog is introduced, the midlle and lower pack order may change, and they will shufflle and tussle until they sort themselves out - but essentially the pack order is set unless offset by a new addition, or physical decline.

Also they have been apart for awhole day now. Should I keep em apart till the sibe comes out of heat? Or put on her greyhound muzzle and allow them to be together and make clear I want no fights (The sibe will latch on the mastiff will stop before she acts. The muzzle will prevent the sibe from biting and give me an extra second to put an end to things without teeth coming in play)

my_sibe_owns_me

I don't think you being the number one in the household (pack) means that there will be no fights between other members of lower rank.

Nor do I think that if they fight in front of you, it is a sign of disrespect.

They have a dispute between themselves - with some dogs you cannot sort this out for them - nor control when they will have fights IF there is a dispute between them - particularly between bitches.

Permanent separation may be the only solution here.

I don't think there would be any dog with such low drive about 'everything' though - would there?!

Lifestock guarding breeds could be.

For some yes this could be correct

On there own in their own space they can be food motivated

but mostly praise works best.

(Actually very topical point of discussion at the moment as advising new owner that praise will work as the best training tool/reward for their pup over any toy or food)

They are very pack orientated, high defence drive, low prey drive, low food drive,low play

- a toy?

oh big deal I'm going over to the far fence there could be something there of interest

If this is the 5yo male I think it is that was surrendered by his family

you are going to need assisstance.

Please seek that assisstance as I do not wish to be notified of an Anatolian attack to human or dog.

This dog is going to need an experienced handler, and as you are not

you will have to learn

so your dog is the safe guardian you wish him to be.

Ah, ok. Dog asggression is one thing, but aggression towards humans is another entirely, particularly when it involves such a powerful breed. I would definitely consult a behaviourist about this behaviour. The signals he is sending are warning signals and it would be terrible if the situation escalated to an attack.

This behaviour is not unusual for an Anatolian that considers itself number one in the hierachy.

You need a dog professional who has experience with this type of breed.

The ASDC - Anatolian Shepherd Dog Club of Australia will be able to refer you to dog professionals who have experience with this breed - there is also 30 years of experience at the helm with the Club President who can offer you knowledgable advice and recommendations of what your options are for your current situation.

EMAIL: [email protected]

I have just adopted an Anatolian Shepherd who is 5. I have had him 3 weeks and even though he has had a lot of changes in his life he seemed to be coping, but this past week he has be growling & showing his teeth. I am not sure how to handle this situation as Anatolians are a placid animal. I would appreciate any help/suggestion/advice that can be provided.

BethnBear - did you adopt this ASD from Melbourne?

Anatolians are a placid animal - with those they respect - this is not a swipe at you - but some male ASDs are known to be very dominant and will challenge those they do not consider to be above them in the hierachy.

A common reason for families surrendering their ASDs to Anatolian Rescue is because the dog is challenging certain members of the household when asked to do something the dog does not want to do.

Have you experience handling and rearing an Anatolian Shepherd before?

I have sent you a PM as you are going to need breed specific help here whatever you decide to do with this dog.

Handling issues like this can escalate into dangerous situations. The Anatolian is a breed that will take the role of leader if it sees it not being carried out.

Also depending on his background and temperament, some dogs are only suited to rehome into particular circumstances.

Were you given any breed advice / support when you adopted this dog?

Luka- please keep us updated on your pup. I love hearing about the Central Asian Shepherds!

I think you may have already seen many pics of the little tacker

Luka common sense is worth its weight in gold

Rearing your pup will be a continually evolving process, a combination of trial and error - success with some methods back to the drawing board with others.

All the trainers here have offered valuable advice, I don't believe there really is a right or wrong - each must take on board what is relevant and applicable to your own dog expereince and household circumstance.

You can try one club, try two, even three - it doesn't matter. Go ultimately where you feel comfortable. But more importantly, go to one where you enjoy your time with your dog, where the people are great and your weekly attendance is one you look forward to.

You just need to determine what it is you want and who is best qualified to provide it. Sometimes that means that you will use different places/ trainers at different times for different things with the same dog.

Don't be afraid to ask them questions of their experience/s and/or knowledge base. It's not just about how many years experience they have, but also about how diverse their experiences are. Ask if the people with the required/desired experience are the people with whom you'll be in contact in the various classes and class levels you'll be attending. Ask around of others (as you've done here). Take into account your own knowledge base and be guided by those who you feel will be best able to assist you and your pup overall.

Never feel bullied into going to one place or the other. Simply weigh up what people have to say and work to recognise the sense of what they say and assess what feels the best for you - not only for now but as a foundation for later.

my neighbour dosent have internet access and she has asked me to ask a question, she breeds pedigree golden retrievers. i know this for a fact as she has certificates and ribbons all over her walls and she also has her kennel advertised at the vets and council offices.

ok her dog has had a litter of 7 puppies 15 weeks ago and she has only sold 2 she has them all vaccinated, wormed, microchipped and health screened by the vets for hip problems and health in general before they go and she sells them for $300each. shes worried that she wont beable to sell the other puppies as she was told that people dont want to buy puppies in the colder months, is that true? as her other litters were all born in september and january and they all went really fast at 8 weeks old.

her puppies are getting older and she refuses to give them to a pet store or shelter and she said if needs be she will get them desexed at the appropriate age.

what advice can you give her to sell her puppies faster. she has also advertised in our local papers and in a few out of state papers, but no ones responded yet.

Is the breeder located in Victoria?

Lilli, are you saying that it is breed specific? Or that any dog who is in an elevated physical position can perceive that they are in an elevated social position? And i have to agree with mystiqview regarding leadership being ingrained in everything we do with our dogs, and not just one particular thing.

Yes my advice is breed and potential home specific.

I know my dogs' lines and their temperaments.

My no furniture/bed recommendations is one of many to aid the rearing of a well adjusted family member.

I will grant that different breeds require different attitudes to leadership. Some require more work than others.

Before getting into borders, I have owned and still part own siberian huskies and dobermanns, one of which was protection trained.

All I am saying.. Leadership is more than allowing dogs to get higher than you. Leadership is in everything you do. Even dogs who permanently live on the floor can run roughshod over their owners. It is the boundaries you set and how you stick to them is important as welll as being consistant and fair.

Children are not as able as adults to instill leadership.

Allowing dogs on furniture is a 'signal' that dominant breeds will pick up on.

A dog that is protection trained has little to do with dominance, but more to do with being capable of a hgh level of training.

You do not want to create a situation where the dog moves off furniture for the parents, but requests by children for the dog to get off the bed is met with definite resistance.

As advised, this recommendation is specific to a family sitatuation with a very large, willful breed.

It is to aid the rearing of a dog as a happy family member that understands its place.

Yes leadership is in everything you do, however having your dogs up at your level ie on beds or furniture, particularly impacts perceived leadership.

Subsequently the instruction to keep the dog off the furniture, and off all beds.

Hello Luka I have sent you a PM

While overall dog rearing strategies are applicable irrespective of breed

the Central Asian being independent and willfull in nature

will attempt to take the place of leader if it sees this role not being carried out.

More so than a Border Collie or Deerhound.

A 75kg willful, stubborn dog is not open to negotiation.

The tenacity and will that makes them brilliant flock guardians and implacable guards

also necessitates that this strong mind be given strict and clear boundaries that they understand and respect from a young age.

My recommendation and advice is not from experience with Rottweilers, Border Collies, or Deerhounds

but from experience rearing, breeding and rescuing Anatolians and Central Asians.

Your new pup will not mind if he is not allowed on the couch, or at the foot of the bed

but he will mind, if he is asked to get off once allowed on

The ducks are stock and apparantly they are free range at this time of year.

I can understand that the owners couldn't take the risk.

Kaz if they need a dog to be livestock guardian and trustworthy with free range ducks, I think I have an Anatolian female still available for adoption in NSW

Totally agree with Poodlefan and Showdog.

Otherwise you will have an 80kg dog who is dangerous.

ST Bernards arnet dangerous, I think I over reacted abit.

100% supervision is the key and hes fine. (Very naughty, but fine)

St Bernards are not dangerous.

They can be taught to be dangerous unwittingly

by inadequate disciplinary practises and upbringing

caused by ignorance and tunnel vision.

It does concern me actually that someone would rehome a dog known to try and attack a child.

What happens if that dog bites a child then?

Most of the Anatolians that come to AR needing rehoming with aggression / behaviour issues are the result of their environment that they were brought up in.

ie: owner with the wrong breed of dog.

Dog is too big, dog won't listen, dog challenges, dog is too much, dog jumps on the kids, dog runs through the door, dog won't get up when told to, dog growls when eating food, dog growls on the lead....

There's a lot of scenarios where a dog can 'try to attack a child'

If the dog hasn't been raised properly, a child trying to remove the dog off the bed could result in an incident; if the dog considers an area of the yard 'his' a child entering that area could result in an incident.

Were the potential adopters aware that the said dog had behaved aggressively towards a person?

AR never misrepresents the dogs it rehomes.

Once again the notion 'behaved aggressively' is up for interpretation.

(If a dog has been shown / taught it runs the household, aggressive behaviour is what the dog knows to keep the humans in their place.)

I admire you for rescuing dogs and finding them good homes, but why would you take a people aggressive dog known for trying to attack instead of another nice friendly dog that urgently needed a home?

Because Anatolian Rescue is just that.

It's amazing how 'nice and friendly' these "aggressive dogs known for trying to attack" become when they get away from their owners.

Owners wanted a 'nice friendly dog' and one that would grow BIG and one that would guard.

But the dog grows big so quick. And at six months it challenged the youngest child in the house.

And at six months the dog was too big to stop crashing through the door first. And at six months it was too big to ignore on the furniture any more. And though they took it to 'puppy school' wasn't that enough for its socialisation? Why is it growling at other dogs now? It didn't growl before? But she's a female? Why is she growling at male dogs?

;)

Did you find it hard to rehome these dogs?

I apologize for all the questions but it truly does confuse me as too why you would considering the reasons people sue now a days.

Some ASD's stay in foster care for months. Some are rehomed before they 'arrive'.

Some ASD's have been treated so appallingly that the only option is to pts.

AR has a waiting list for people wanting adult / rescue ASDs. Some are farm homes. Some are family homes. The dogs are placed accordingly. The potential homes are scrutinised.

Anatolian Rescue, rescues and transports dogs Australia-wide, provides veterinary care, rehabilitates, retrains and rehomes these dogs

because we're fanatics.

It trully confuses me

why gits persist

in purchasing dogs they are not suited to.

So you would be willing to take a dog that has lunged at and if it had not been intercepted would have harmed a child?

Considering you take quite large dogs i would hate to think you would rehome one that has done so.

Perhaps i misworded, some would help but they wouldnt take the dog. I meant to say take not help.

Yes tollers.

Anatolian Rescue is willing / does takes / has taken / is taking dogs that have been described by their owners as doing the above.

Please, if thinking of their rehoming causes you trouble, then dont.

no rescue would even consider helping a dog that has lunged at a child regardless of why it did.

Absolutely false.

That's some sweeping, uninformed generalisation tollers.