Santo66

A GSD at only 4.8kgs at 8 weeks - that isn't much more than my Whippet! Sorry, double post.

A GSD at only 4.8kgs at 8 weeks - that isn't much more than my Whippet! We ordered him from interstate and went over and picked him up......he was small and I thought he was younger than 8 weeks at first sight, but his paperwork all matched up?. Mine was 4.8kg so not the smallest ever :laugh: He looks small next to my older 69cm GSD but he is 64.5cms 36kg at 3 1/2 years old so probably more in size by the book, than oversize?

We had a GSD up the road when I was a kid who used to run out and bail people up. The old girl who owned him when she was home used to let him lay on the front porch and when she heard him barking, she would come out and tell him to get inside. She could call him off and he would wander back in and wait for the next person walking by and do the same thing. He bit a kid in the end and the police were called who shot him in the front yard.....he came out at the cops when they rolled up to interview the owner about the attack on the kid apparently. GSD's could have been a banned breed back then too being another reason they may have shot him....it was around 1970/71 by memory but was big action in street everyone talked about.

Unless you can identify the owner, the council may provide some lip service but there is nothing they can do really, even with a description on record, they still can only address the current situation if they catch up with them......I would tend to follow them or find out where the dogs live so you can make a valid report where they have to do something about it?

I was taught that performance was all about training and that's what I did too, worked with the dog I had and I wasn't very good at it no matter how hard I tried, but I never really thought much about the dog's ability and blamed myself for doing things wrong as the reason why my dog didn't work properly. I did get one obedience title on a GSD years ago just scraping it in :laugh: To cut a long story short, it wasn't until searching for GSD last time from high drive lines that I noticed such a massive difference in overall response like the dog had done it all before in a former life......I didn't really train much better, but the dog just did it with ease compared to what I was used to in my previous lower drive dogs.....primarily training in +R on this dog it's awesome. Loving what I can do with drive, a KNPV line Malinois X Dutch Shepherd came of for adoption and couldn't resist....he also responds the same in drive....my point in the discussion was drive and +R is like a duck to water where lower drive dogs alternative methods are more effective from my experiences. Perhaps are you mistaking drive for energy.....drive as in drive to earn reward? A friend has an old fat Labrador who can barely get up the front steps, but has a sensational food drive and she responds well to treat reward and easily trains in +R........it depends on the dog really.

I reported one after the 3rd time it came rushing out of it's driveway trying to attack my dogs walking by the house on leash......it was a little dog which didn't present a real threat to me, it was football size and worked like a football when it grabbed my pants leg the last time, but after two occasions speaking with the owners of this dog to play by the rules and keep their dog in which they ignored, they deserved a menacing dog order and the fine they got by me reporting the situation which I think was well justified. I have also dropped the ball a few years ago getting a pup out of the car who slipped through my grasp and ran into the carpark. A lady intervened to catch him an in the commotion, my older dog jumped over the seat......door still open and bit the lady who was trying to help me on the hip...she was wearing jeans and I saw it coming at the last second to stop a full on bite, so it was more a grab than a bite and the lady was uninjured but none the less I was in the shit and my dog probably euthanized if she had have reported me but she didn't, she was very understanding and luckily my older dog was trained well enough for her to see he wasn't a rabid threat. Personally I don't report on error, no one is perfect even me, shit happens and I think we need to be reasonable In the decision to report.

It's not always about commitment or even whether its possible to achieve, more often than not its about what can be achieved in a reasonable amount of time and within the owners skill range. I gave an example of exactly this earlier in the discussion regarding a reactive dog trained in +R for 6 months and yes it was working with the reactivity distance threshold halved in that time and the dog could be walked within 20 metres of another dog and remained focused where initially it was 50 metres+ and the dog was starting to react. With a change of training method and a prong collar the reactivity distance was reduced down to 5 metres in 30 minutes and after a week on this method, the owner can walk passed another dog on the footpath reaction free and the dog will now take a treat reward as a double reinforcer for the right behaviour on the prong after a close encounter with another dog, that is the boundaries set by the prong correction has reduced stress levels dramatically in a very short period of time. +R trainers work on exactly the opposite of this where corrections cause stress and fallout......it can but for the most part it's complete bullshit, yet they deprive the dog and owner of success in a reasonable amount of time by honouring a training method sometimes in a cult like fashion to avoid any form of punishment at all costs.......perhaps these trainers are the one's to open their eyes when wasting peoples time for the sake of a more productive method of training? Not everyone has months or years setting dogs up for success to say which is primarily the essence of it, "I achieved this without correcting my dog", but what they don't tell us is that it took a hell of a lot of work and two years to accomplish what could have been achieved in 30 minutes with the right method for a given dog!! My GSD doesn't have a lot of drive, I struggled a lot with motivation with him (he also has health problems which doesn't help). I wish I had known what I do now about engagement, and how to make myself and my rewards more interesting, and how to be more fun (and have more fun in my training) when he was younger, as my aim had been to do competition obedience with him but we never quite got there. This theory of doing things differently with GSD's to build drive and motivation in dogs that lack it has been extensively tested in police K9 training programs with the result if a green dog won't chase a ball with vigour and enjoy a tug toy above all else, it fails first base and is rejected for foundation training. It's been proven time and time again in this field that drive cannot be extracted by training regardless of the method from a dog who lacks the genetic drive component necessary for the job. I agree that doing things differently may produce a better result by extracting everything the dog has in potential, but a dog lacking genetic drive component compared with a dog who has it, will remain limited to what can be achieved with that particular dog. It's a major reason working dog programs are beginning to induct Malinois over GSD's as the Malinois is more plentiful by numbers in the drive component especially trained in +R :)

My youngest GSD male was 4.8kg at 8 weeks the older one was 8.2kg. The smaller one as an adult is 36kg's the larger pup 42kg's.

What did you think they would do without identifying the owner?

Something isn't right here If the death certificate is dated last month, where is the declaration the dog was supposed to be PTS 18 months ago?

I just told you how it appears to me from what you are saying, that is: It appears you are implying that all dogs have equal potential in response to an +R training regime, yes or no? Drive has nothing to do with it and drive isn't genetic....are you serious The clicker is a marker, click and reward yes?. A dog with drive has greater motivation to earn the reward....sure it works with a low drive dog free of distractions.....add some distractions and pressure and see how it works then in comparison to how it works with a high drive dog? Actually, my youngest two are trained in +R to a great extent...one is working line GSD the other a Malinois X Dutch Shepherd and reward based methods with these dogs works fantastically well, in fact it works so well it highlights how poor it works with dogs lacking the drive to support it is my observation and the point I am making

Yet it appears you are implying that all dogs have equal potential in response to an +R training regime? IME they don't......the higher the genetic drive of the dog, the better they respond to +R and the worse they respond to aversive and vice versa. In relation to the OP's questions regarding clicker training +R and the reliability of that regime on the average dog, that is I don't think the OP is grooming for agility competition or the like that I have established from their post, my advice to the OP's situation is this: If you employ a trainer or attend a club that trains in only +R, if they apply the method properly and your dog has adequate drive level to suit that training style, you will get a good result. If your dog is lower in drive, has drive in the wrong place, is easily distracted or has problem behaviour from a genetic perspective, you are better off with a trainer or club who specialise in training dogs, not trainers or clubs who specialise in marketing training methods. Regardless if the method marketed and practiced is +R or aversive methods, the wrong method applied to the wrong dog type will result in a stuff up or a grave limitation on the dog's training potential. A good trainer IMHO is someone experienced in all methods of training a wide range of dog types, who has the ability to assess a dog properly and determine the best method or tools most suitable for that dog and owner be that a clicker or tug toy or perhaps a prong collar or a combination of either. The most training failures I have seen I would confidently say to the value of 90% is +R used on dogs of the wrong type who respond better to some aversive procedures in the training regime as far as general obedience and reliability goes in the average pet. :)

Studies of choice behaviour have consistently and repeatedly demonstrated that we can trump a big reward with lots of little rewards. So you don't necessarily need a better reward (or stronger negative reinforcer), but yes, overcoming a sighthound's drive to chase takes a lot more work! Why not use an Ecollar correction to flatten the drive to chase live prey?

I think this is true of training in general not just when it comes to the use of +R. IME far too many people allow their emotions and politics to get in the way of effective training. CORRECT Your posts are too sensible Huski, behave please :laugh:

Of course this is true, but in the longer term a properly constructed reinforcement history will overcome that. To a point yes, but it will never be as reliable as a dog with greater genetic focus for handler induced prey which can be determined in puppies at 6 to 7 weeks old and becomes part of common puppy selection process in a working dog. Last time I chose that in my pup and with constructed foundation training to strengthen or reinforce those genetics, this particular dog is awesome in maintaining handler focus as an adult through any distraction whatsoever......his brother who I also tested as a puppy is not even close to this guy, but you could see that vividly at 7 weeks old. What I am attesting to is the individual dog makes a massive difference in the training result that is this dog makes me look a far better trainer than I am...where this dog just does it with ease, other's don't if that makes sense :)

Withholding reward applies pressure to the dog and when the dog blows over composure threshold, the dog is in a stressful state. So that falls on the opposite end of the frustration spectrum than shutting down. Yes. I haven't had a dog previously with the level of fight drive this dog has with a noticeable and defined switch......his father is the much the same so I guess a genetic component, but it's interesting to see it unfold under pressure where the stages of frustration begin and end,where prey drive turns into fight. Obviously it's a testament to the reason for not working your own dog beyond prey and fun, but the stress was vividly noticeable with mass confusion for the dog thinking he should need to fight his handler......mostly you get a shut down but in this case it went the other way being an eye opener to chalk up as yet another noteworthy experience. Prior to these experiences I would have probably said that withholding reward is not a particular stressful event for a dog...my opinion of that is now changed somewhat.

Withholding reward applies pressure to the dog and when the dog blows over composure threshold, the dog is in a stressful state. I would question how many trainers claiming +R are applying the science of it as most I have seen in practice are simply luring and chucking a few rewards around......maybe the reason why it appears not to be working reliably in mainstream training perhaps? Personally I think clicker training is cumbersome and takes a skill level higher than what the average dog owner has to correctly apply it. I have found co-ordination and timing is more accurate using marker words, that is they seem more adapt at using their voice at the opportune moment than pressing the clicker. Aside from people training in a more competitive foundation, most general dog owners playing with clickers are usually messing it up from my observations. If used correctly, yes, if used incorrectly owner has no control of the dog without the clicker which is quite common.

For what purpose or advantage over the prong collar work which took 3 corrections to stop the dog lunging from a 3 year old habit in a timeframe of 30 minutes. R+ is faster than that, more reliable what? You make it sound so simple, has it stopped your dog getting upset at the vet? That one departed in 2005 at 15 years old......he was run off old guard dog lines, sharp and defensive......taught me a lot by necessity but never again would I have a dog like that.....then again perhaps I would make a better job of a dog like that second time around? That behaviour isn't a problem, it's a crucial element in a dog for protection training except withholding reward is best done against a decoy where you give the dog a sleeve bite which is the reward when training in fight over prey....you just don't ideally work your own dog to that point which another lesson learned I guess.

It really shouldn't be aversive, though. I'd feel like I'd failed to explain what I wanted, or asked too much, if a dog I was training actually got stressed about a reward being withheld, or didn't use a NRM as an opportunity to try something different. Do you really think there is no stress at all involved with removal of a reward? Sorry, but I just can't buy it and science doesn't either. We know removing a high value reward is stressful to a dog. It's stressful to people too. IMO there is stress in all learning and I don't think that's a bad thing. If removing a reward or giving a NRM created no stress in the dog at all it wouldn't be effective. I agree totally. I mentioned previously in the discussion that my working line GSD has bitten me twice from withholding reward and the dog was stressed and getting angry and decided to help himself. Because someone hasn't experienced a dog of that intensity and the stress isn't as obvious, doesn't mean it's non existent........on more extreme dogs these cracks IME are greater highlighted to see the effects more vividly. With my dog withholding a bite reward, the first stage is intense calm focus.....then the body trembling the anticipation......then high pitched yipping, feet bouncing.....then the bark deepens then he will fight you for it with aggression. As his handler/owner I don't want to take it the past the yipping in fact I reward the calm focus, but you can see the stress building in full drive and arousal to point of overload and he could nail me for that reward. The after effect of that is submission, he knows he went too far, the ears are flat on his head and he sooks and licks me......to say that reward withholding is not stressful for the dog......I have never seen my dog as stressed as that scenario when taken too far.

For what purpose or advantage over the prong collar work which took 3 corrections to stop the dog lunging from a 3 year old habit in a timeframe of 30 minutes. R+ is faster than that, more reliable what?

To stop the attack on the vet.......there are still claws and head ramming to contend with even though the muzzle prohibits a biting.

Maybe not in the world that you live in...but in the world of obedience, agility and a number of other the sports that the majority of this forum have access to, events are often won by damn good trainers who understand how to motivate and train dogs from a number of different genetic backgrounds. What percentage of this forum have access to, experrience or interest in high drive working shepherds for Shutzhund? Or the skills to train them? I would guess not even 1%. So it doesn't matter how many times you explain the same thing, it's simply not relevant to most of us. The sport type makes no difference whether it be agility, Schutzhund or scent detection for narcotics in a working role and scent detection is a good example......the dog isn't indicating to smoke a joint as reward, they are indicating on the scent quite often for a throw of the ball or tug toy.....the point I am making is the drive has to be in the dog in the first place for training to extract it. The theory that great trainers use shit dogs unsuitable for the job to showcase their great training system is rubbish. Sure they like us to see it that way that some super training system took a genetically unsuitable dog into a champion but we all know in reality it's not case. A training system is only as good as the dog's limitations. I once thought that my own lack of performance was all attributed training error until I got a proper dog bred for the job and the difference in result was unbelievable. Speaking of Schutzhund, a two times world champion trainer who would never finish outside the top 5 in any competition entered a showline dog in the world title a few years ago......it was the only showline entry out of 120 working line dogs. He finished 53rd...was that the dog didn't measure up or he couldn't train it properly? Of course, but are you implying that regardless of drive level that all dogs exposed to the training program respond exactly the same?

It depends on the intensity of desire the dog has to earn the reward above all else. That's why high level dog sport is won by lines of dogs that possess genetically adaptable drives towards a reward based training system. That's why breeders of competition lines purposely breed abundance of genetic drive into their lines to aid in the ease of training and reliability. You don't simply throw a training method at any dog and win because of the method utilised, you utilise a training method that extracts the genetics of the dog. Here is an example a couple of weeks ago: 4 year old working line GSD of good blood lines desexed female pet out of control surrendered to a backyard, owner can't handle the dog, dog fights off correction on a choke chain and attacks the leash. She had never seen a tug toy in her life within 15 minutes, dog is biting the tug and loving it. 15 minutes later, dog is outing the tug and re-biting on release, that's 30 minutes into the session. A futher 30 minutes later, dog is out the front on leash focus healing. The following day, GSD with dog aggression 3 year old desexed female pet, good basic training with treats, ok until within 30 metres of another dog. Dog performs with perfect obedience in a sterile environment free of distractions and other dogs, add distractions and other dogs, there is no obedience whatsoever, all flew out the window. Dog is as flat as a biscuit in drive, won't chase a ball, won't bite a tug, dog will only food focus if not under stress. The dog has desire to earn food reward in a non stressful situation......that's it.....the first dog went crazy over the tug toy which provides the means for something to focus on and the desire to want.......that's in the dogs genetics to begin with over the second dog who had no interest in it. With the second dog, you are behind the 8 ball to begin with in a motivational training system as the dog doesn't have the genetic motivation or drive for that training system where the first dog did.......big difference!! The second dog was put on a prong collar and taken for a walk up the street. When she went to have a lunge at the fence up the road where a dog lives who barks at her, she copped a correction....wow did the stop the lunge in it's tracks immediately.....3 years of learned behaviour to lunge at that fence stopped in a heartbeat!!. Prong collars don't work hey?? 60 minutes later the dog is learning boundaries and consequence and bugger me......the stress levels are dropping and the dog is starting to take food rewards in the street.......never has the dog taken a food reward in the street before when under stress, now she is after copping a few prong corrections. Isn't that mazing hey......one of them terrible and cruel despicable prong collars has just taught a dog consequence of the wrong behaviour and lowered stress levels when the handler took control of the dog and situation with some ground rules and the dog begins to take a food treat in her former stressful zone where before she wouldn't eat. The point is this: If the treat trainer had of put a prong collar on that dog 3 years ago instead of messing around trying to extract drive the dog didn't have in the first place to suit their motivational training method, the massive improvement achieved in 60 minutes on a prong would have been well and truly established. The moral is this: Had the treat trainer been motivated to train dogs instead of selling training methods and used the right training system best suitable to the particular dog, the owner of this dog wouldn't have messed around for 3 years with a dog that was uncontrollable in the face of other dogs and distractions. The dog yesterday was walked through a dog park on leash and prong in the face of other dogs without a flinch and took at treat at the end for being a good girl maintaining her composure. That's one week on a prong versus 3 years of treat training.....I rest my case :D In a sterile environment yes absolutely.....where it falls over is in the face of distraction, the more drive a dog has, the more "want" a dog has to earn a reward, the less the dog cares about the environment and it's surroundings which is handler focus.....the handler means more to the dog beyond all else :)

What you use as a reward does come into the equation, but if this problem comes up the trainer needs to re-evaluate what the handler is doing and teach them how to overcome this. It really should not be about one reward being in competition with another. That, by definition, would not be training with positive reinforcement. It depends on how much desire the dog has to earn handler reward which is a genetic component of the dog's make up, hence, drive in the right place is essential. When you train that type of dog (drive in the right place)the dog is genetically obsessed by handler offering, that is NOTHING will override the desire to get a bite on a tug toy for example or a throw of the ball, the dog cares of nothing else regardless of distraction. The training system only extracts what the dog has genetically......a training system can't extract what isn't there......that is all dogs are not created equal.

Again I think the bigger picture isn't whether you can train with rewards, it's whether the goal can be achieved in a reasonable amount of time and successfully given the skill level of the owner. As an aside I don't think we should forget that when we train with rewards we all use removal or loss of a reward. For a dog that has a high desire to earn rewards it is a fact this can be more stressful than a physical correction. It can be so stressful to dogs like this they can actually switch into fight drive and help themselves to the reward.......my working line GSD has bitten me twice from withholding reward in a high state of drive. Dogs like this can loose the plot easily from withholding reward when the aggressively desire it at high levels of arousal. There is actually a too much drive and focus scenario to earn reward at the other end of the spectrum