huski

Sorry but I just don't agree that pinning a dog to the ground, putting your mouth over their muzzle () or any of the other "techniques"you listed would build bonds of trust and respect. They encourage the dog te be submissive, fearful and intimidated. Not the same thing as respect IMO. It's a fact that a true alpha does not need to alpha roll or pin other pack members to get them to submiss. They submiss without force. I would have to question why anyone would need to alpha roll their dog to get them to obey them. Most of those attributes aren't behaviours.. they influence them. Dogs do understand the "whats in it for me" principle.. the basis of all operant conditioning training. Desireable behaviours that are rewarded will increase in frequency. That's how 'reward' based training works. That's how recall training works.. you condition the dog to the point where it responds to the recall without thinking. I don't believe in confrontations with an animal capable of doing you serious damage. We got the allegedly bigger brain for a reason. We can think past the immediate behaviour and develop programs of training to modify the attitude that produced it. Heidi, I don't have loose skin, protective fur, a head that can take a direct kick from a buffalo and survive or huge canines. I'm hardly going to use inter species dominance techniques on another species when I can use safer ones. Put your face near a pissed off or very dominant dog and ask for battle and sometimes that's exactly what you're going to get. You will lose. Dominance and intimidation keeps many a facial reconstruction surgeon in new BMWs. Why confront and intimidate when we can train to establish bonds of trust and respect. Respect is the product of a training process. You don't have to assault a dog to gain its respect.. and that is what some of the recommendations here are IMO. Well said PF, I totally agree

It's an old myth that alpha dogs would alpha roll or "scruff" other dogs to get them to submit. In reality, pack members will naturally submiss to alpha dogs without the alpha even needing to touch them. I've seen people seriously bitten using the exact method you have out lined above, IMO it's outdated and incredibly risky. You see Cesar Milan do the same thing and he's been bitten doing it hundreds of times. I don't blame a dog who would bite someone handling them in such an aggressive and confrontational manner, in fact IMO it would be a pretty natural instinct to bite someone who is handling them in such a manner. IMO it's utter crap that if you hold a dog down by it's neck that it can't bite you, you can get bitten holding dogs down like if the dog is capable of over powering you. Just what are you teaching your dog when you do this to them? That if they challenge you or do the wrong thing you are going to turn around and hold them to the ground? You can't force a dog to respect you or want to obey you. If you need to physically pin your dog to the ground to get them to obey you I'd "have to wonder why you'd even have it in the first place". There's obviously something else going on with your relationship with your dog and simply alpha rolling them is not going to change whatever it is you are doing wrong.

I totally agree with this statement. This is what has gotton me extremly effective recalls with my dogs. People wonder how I have such a good recall.....honestly its mostly because of intimidation and dominance. I'm curious, Heidii, how did you get really effective recalls with intimidation and dominance? To me, respect is not something that can be gained through intimidation or dominance. You can't force or scare a dog into respecting you.

I don't really use jackpots much, I prefer to build drive by rewarding more frequently but not in a jackpot style of, say, feeding ten treats in a row as a single reward. I find with Daisy that the adrenaline rush she gets from working in drive has started to become as much of a reward as eating the actual food. But I would use the TOT type method of releasing the dog to one big reward, like a container of food.

I actually find this quite offensive and hurtful huski. I'm not sure whether that is intentional or not, I may not be an expert but I am trying my best, and there are definitely more tactful ways to make your point. Sorry, Pete, I didn't intend to be offensive. I wasn't trying to say that you weren't trying your best but that you could be missing something in terms of how you are communicating to your dog, and that you could perhaps be giving your dog unclear or mixed signals. What I was trying to infer was that a dog doesn't usually snap and growl at you when you try to move them off the lounge as an isolated incident (unless they are injured), that generally it indicates something is going on overall, in the way you are interacting with the dog, and that your communication is probably not clear on some things. It could be that the dog is still learning the boundaries but talking from experience, having almost exactly the same issue as you, I know that it can be turned around if you work out where you are going wrong so that you are communicating with the dog in a way that he understands. Corvus: For someone who thinks they aren't judgmental Corvus that's a very judgmental statement to make. I don't know anyone whose dogs respect them who built that relationship through intimidation. Respect is not something that can be forced.

I dont think this problem is in need of a behaviorlist, he simply needs to be made aware who is in charge and the owner is the one who needs to learn to inforce this effectivly and consistantly. His behaviour is common & used by dogs who think they are the boss...he/the owner doesnt need to spend $200+ to find this out. I disagree. This is not a situation that can simply be fixed by scruffing the dog. Do that to the wrong dog, and the problem will get worse and not better. This is a situation that has the potential to escalate and become much more serious and ingrained if it is not handled properly. Confrontation was suggested to me when Daisy did the same thing to me (growling when moved off the lounge) - I too was told to scruff her, growl at her back and say "NO!" or "ARH!". It made her behaviour worse because she took me up on the challenge and she escalated from growling to snapping. IMO physical confrontation is never a good idea with a dog who is displaying aggression because if the dog doesn't back down and takes you up on the challenge you are putting yourself in a very risky situation. What would you suggest if scruffing the dog to "show them whose boss" escalates the dog's behaviour like it did with my dog, because the dog takes you up on the challenge? What if the dog is stronger than you, or goes from growling/snapping to full on biting you? At the end of the day the fact the OP's dog growled at her like that would demonstrate to me that there is something wrong or missing from their relationship, that the dog has no or little respect for her and that is not something that can be changed simply by scruffing the dog. It's something about the way the OP interacts with her dog on a daily basis that needs to change.

Whereabouts in NSW are you? K9 Force is in NSW and comes highly recommended http://www.k9force.net

Interesting article . I've never been comfortable with the idea of head halters and this article confirms my determination not to use one on any of my dogs. Suzanne Clothier also has a really good article on head collars on her website: http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/54/97/

This is exactly the reason why I'm not a big fan of head collars, many dogs find them quite aversive and uncomfortable to wear even when they're not being 'corrected'. This can make it difficult to communicate clearly to the dog because the tool is aversive to them the entire time they are wearing it, as opposed to other tools like martingales, pressure point collars etc that only correct the dog when pressure is applied to the leash. What have you done to desensitize her to the head collar? If you go through the appropriate process to fit it and train her to wear it I wouldn't persevere if she continues to be miserable when she's wearing it. There are lots of other options available. ETA: If she's got sensitive skin, I imagine the skin on her face would be pretty sensitive, could it be irritating her?

Yes, i want to upgrade to another ute, i just don't want to spoil it with an ugly looking, crappy old mans canopy. I'd like to buy something nice for myself, without having to take into consideration the dogs for once. You might have a point with the crate idea, but i wouldn't be keen on drilling holes and bolting it to the floor. If i could work it out so i could remove it, i'd go for that idea. Maybe there is some way you could tie it down or attach it to something? Not that I'm an expert when it comes to utes

I'm not keen on removing it now. No, i don't think curtains would sit too well. You can't really block the view, that would be illegal. Didn't you said you want to upgrade to another ute, but didn't want to go the canopy? A crate would be something to consider when you upgrade. You could also put a crate cover over it, to block the view, without doing anything illegal

Nik, I use 'yes' too. I find it works really well for Daisy Re; your kids walking the dog, I think the topic came up in reference to you saying your boys can't walk her because she pulls on the leash.

I think Erny meant to use the crate instead of the canopy (seeing as you aren't keen on the canopy).

I had almost exactly the same problem with Daisy when she was that age. Confronting her made it worse because she took me up on the challenge. I taught her the off command instead of confronting her, I started by luring her off the lounge with a treat and rewarding her when she was on the floor. This progressed to simply having to say 'off' and she'd jump straight off the lounge. I also consulted a behaviourist so we did some one on one work and looked at the things that needed to change. Not all trainers are $200, it might be worth enquiring so you know how much you will be up for If you are in SA, Mark Singer might be worth contacting.

I agree that she needs some assistance which is why I think having some one on one training would be hugely beneficial, at least then the trainer can assess the dog and if a tool is needed can fit the right one properly

Sorry but I have to disagree with you there. Some dogs may find them less aversive than others but the fact is they are aversive, otherwise they wouldn't work. No, but they have to be one of the most misused training tools I see on dogs and if someone is going to use one they need to be aware of their pitfalls. I would never jump in and say it is the best tool to use on a five month old pup, without even seeing the dog, or knowing what other training methods have been explored. I don't use check chains. I do walk them on martingales, for safety, because Micha can slip flat collars over his head. When I train Daisy I train her on a flat collar or I attach the leash to the end ring on the martingale so it acts like a flat collar. I don't see what correction chains have to do with it though? I have no problem with aversive tools when they are used appropriately. At the end of the day, my dog found a plain martingale far less aversive than the head collar he'd been fitted with. There's never once been any discomfort or aversion shown when I put the martingale on him, yet his entire demeanor would change the instant the head collar was put on. Fitting it properly doesn't change the fact that head collars are aversive, and they have far more danger of neck/spinal injury than other training collars like martingales.

That is where my focus is, and when we walk together she's almost perfect.... it's just for when my older boys are with me, and for the school pick up, as she think all the kids at school are her best friends and wants to be with them. I also don't like the halti for the twisting nature of it, but thought that I'd get some proper feedback here.... and I have! We may perservere for a few more weeks with training before I look at purchasing something anyway. Ultimately I want her to behave as well for the boys on lead as she does for me. Problem is that the boys aren't as consistent with her as I am. I didn't mean to imply you weren't going to focus on training, just that it's often lost when people (in general) whack a tool on their dog and forget about all the other things that they should be doing with it I'm sure some trainers fit it properly but there are those who don't, too. I've met them and seen them do it with my own eyes. And, IMO, most pet owners buy head collars and just whack them on their dogs without knowing how to properly use them, fit them or if they are appropriate for their dog, which is what I was referring to in my last post. We aren't talking about a trainer assisting the OP here, so whether or not some trainers fit the tool properly isn't really the point. How do you know it's an excellent choice when you haven't met the dog? Head collars are not a one size fits all and they are not appropriate for every dog. I've met dogs including my own who were properly fitted with the head collar and still hated it and found it highly aversive. I must have missed the part where her children need to handle the dog? If the dog is pulling and pulling it's highly distracted and needs to do some focus work, I'm not sure I would want kids handling a dog that is highly distracted and not quite trained yet. I just don't see why a head collar has to be the only way to get this dog walking on loose leash. It's still a puppy, is it really necessary to whack something as aversive as a head collar on it to get some control back?

I would be reluctant to put a head collar on an adult, but I would be especially reluctant to use one on a puppy for a few reasons. This is a training issue, not a tool issue, so a tool shouldn't be the focus in this situation to begin with. It will be harder to properly fit a head collar on a growing pup, and I would be reluctant to put one on a pup that lunges and "pulls and pulls" because I'd hate to risk spinal/neck injury on a growing pup. Then you also have to consider that if you put a head collar on this pup now instead of investing in some training you're not really teaching the dog anything. If you take the head collar off, would the dog still pull? I'd much rather focus on learning to handle the dog more effectively instead of putting a bandaid on the problem when the dog is only going to get bigger and stronger. Dogs often learn to pull on head collars, so I'd rather address the actual problem.

I'm not from Melbourne so I'm not sure about where you are in relation to others, but we have a few trainers here from Melbourne There's Erny: http://www.prok9.com.au/ and Cosmolo: http://www.underdogtraining.com.au/ I know Kelpie-i and Nekhbet are also in VIC too

The pup is only five months old, a head collar would be a totally inappropriate tool to use in this situation IMO.

This thread must have made me paranoid Tonight I had Daisy out at the local sports oval, it was packed. She was working really well, despite two different people yelling at us from their cars one of them screamed out "That dog doesn't love you!" or something equally bizarre :S I was mortified though as we were doing a bit of heelwork and two woman stopped and watched us for ages :D I felt so self conscious ;) Daisy loved it though and luckily she was on fire today Except for when an idiot had her dog running around off leash (its an on leash area so I had Daisy on a long line) run up to us, jump all over Daisy, completely ignoring the owner who kept calling it and calling it to no avail. Daisy was momentarily distracted for a few seconds, but I got her focus back quickly, annoying though that it broke her concentration

I don't think when used appropriately that there is anything wrong with or outdated about corrections or punishment, after all even a stern 'ah ah' is a correction. I don't agree with using corrections/punishment to teach dogs a new behaviour, IMO that's just unfair.

I think you have a few options; - Find a club you prefer (if you're in Melbourne, have you thought of looking at Kelpie-i's club?) - Talk to the club president about the trainer - Continue training there but do your own thing and ignore the trainer, which can be hard to do especially if he's going to take your dog for demos without your permission. I would absolutely not be comfortable with a trainer I didn't trust taking my dog, so I would be inclined to chat to the club President about it or to find a new club

IMO there is no way I'd put a head collar on a five month old pup. This is a training issue not a tool issue, many dogs learn to pull on anti-pull harnesses like the sporn harness anyway. You're far better spending your money on a one on one consult with a reputable behaviourist - there are a few in DOLers who are trainers/behaviourists in Melbourne, if you tell us what area you are in I'm sure we can point you to the right direction

I am doing a drive training program with Steve at K9 Force and so far Daisy's recall has improved hugely. I have no doubt that we will be able to get that reliable recall! (hard to do with a scent hound!)