huski

I would, if you want to drive home the point that barking will end in no reward. How often do you reward him outing the tug by letting him get it again straight away?

Do you have a no reward marker? (Like oops, nope, whoops etc). I would NRM him as he barks and end the session (I would crate my dogs or put them outside). I would also check your timing. Is he offering the barking all the time or only if he starts to get frustrated as he isn't sure what you want? My dogs offer previously rewarded behaviour at rapid fire speed if I start shaping something new or if I'm not being clear with what I want from them.

I think it's important to remember that when it comes to training most people need to see results in a reasonable amount of time otherwise they become discouraged or may give up on the dog. What is a reasonable amount of time for one person can differ to the next. I've spoken to some people who are very adamant they only ever want to use what they consider to be 'positive only' methods and some of these people are happy to plug away trying to change the dog's behaviour for years. Sometimes the dog never really improves or only shows marginal improvement and they continue doing the same thing essentially forever without any real result. However, other people may need to see change happen faster. Sometimes it is because the dogs behaviour is extremely dangerous or prevents it from having much quality of life, sometimes it makes the owner miserable to live with the dog. It may not be that the behaviour can't be fixed without using aversives but it may not be able to be fixed in a reasonable amount of time using other methods.

I too think a Rotty could be a great option.

We all have those times where we feel frustrated! There are some awesome high energy games you can play in between exercises that help keep engagement high. Weaving through your legs, nose targeting, a bit of physical rough housing, basic fun tricks. With wiz she has a lot of drive so I will probably keep her working in between exercises but with daisy I used to ask for nose targets to my hands or hi-10. Training things like the dog ignoring rewards being offered by other people or thrown in front or around them helps build durability and it also reinforces the dogs understanding that the reward experience only happens with you.

Simply put: dogs generally learn new behaviors easily with rewards. Once a behavior has become habitual, ingrained and self rewarding it can be more challenging to fix this purely with R+.

IME this is a training problem more than a problem training the dog in prey drive (if we are talking in regards to toys). The reward experience should always be about the handler and dog sharing in the reward not the dog just getting a toy. Without the handler interaction the toy should have little to no value. If someone took my dogs ball from me when I was training her and waved it in her face she wouldn't be tempted or interested in taking it. The people I generally see struggle in trials because they don't have the reward visible or on their body, are the ones who try to trick the dog into thinking they have the reward, try to hide it, have taught the dog to trigger off the sight of the reward or don't have a strong enough foundation where the dog understands how the reward experience works.

Yes hoping to do IPO and ANKC obedience. But we will see how we go! we originally trained Wiz in personal protection bitework so doing IPO/sport bitework is a different kettle of fish. She loves it though!

Ok I have a mini brag! I am so happy with how Wisdom bounced back from her litter (pups left to their new homes last month). I have been working so hard on my handling this year and am so pleased with how Wiz and I are working as a team. Training her is such a joy! She really is my dream dog, and I am really proud of how she is working and how my handling has improved. Learning the bite work stuff is something totally new so that has been a fun challenge. Quick training video from Friday: I know it's not a trial brag so hope no one minds me sharing :)

I using shaping with both food and toys but I personally find it much easier to use a verbal marker (I use the word "yes") rather than a clicker when using a toy. With my Mal I would say 95% of training I do with her is with a ball or tug - she is food driven so I can use food when I want to, but I am so used to shaping and training with toys now I find it easy! :)

I feed a raw egg a day (including shell) sometimes more.

It is a nightmare, for the vast majority of people who attempt it, even if there is more than one owner. When I get a pup it doesn't run with my other dogs, for many reasons. Pups need to learn how to self settle without the company of people or other dogs, otherwise if it is in a situation where it is on its own, many can't cope. I leave my beagle home alone during the day frequently, sometimes for 10 hours at a time. She has little to no value for other dogs, not every dog needs or even enjoys the company of another dog.

Steve

Desexing your dog doesn't make you a responsible owner. Would these people who backyard breed their dogs and have unwanted oops litters really become better or more responsible dog owners if they desexed their dogs? No. It may prevent them producing a litter from that dog but it won't make them better dog owners who take appropriate care of their dogs. It's not responsible dog owners who contribute to the issue of unwanted dogs being PTS. If you are a responsible dog owner why should you have to desex your dogs because irresponsible owners can't manage theirs?

Whether other pet owners can responsibly manage entire dogs has no bearing on my decision not to desex my dogs. I am a responsible owner and I am more than capable of managing entire dogs. Personally I won't desex any of my dogs again unless there is a medical reason that requires it. For anyone else I would always suggest researching it and making an informed decision. I really enjoyed watching this video and it made me wonder why we don't look into other desexing procedures for female dogs;

I agree with you TSD. I think how you train and work your dog in a sport can make a difference as well. I like stylised obedience and my training sessions are very active. Keeping my dog fit is very important for the style of training we do. Whereas some people who train obedience keep their dogs calm and the most activity they do is plodding up and down the field walking next to the handler. If their dog isn't super fit it probably won't be very apparent to them in training or trialling.

Dogs that are higher drive often have a higher pain threshold and it isn't always obvious when they've injured themselves somehow. Another reason why regular checks with a good chiro is really beneficial.

Dory I look forward to hearing how you go!

Again though I don't restrict activities like throwing the ball because my dog lacks drive - that's definitely not the case! For me it's also about developing work ethic and the way the dog learns how they can gain reward. Why should they put their all into training when they know they can get reward for a cheaper price all the time? How can it make the reward experience special and exciting if they have access to me and the rewards I offer essentially 24/7? I like to maintain a level of novelty in training to make the reward value even higher. Like I said - this could make a marginal difference for some dogs. For dogs with less drive like my beagle it did help build drive for the reward and made a huge difference to her training. I wasn't aiming my post to you - just saying that activities where the dog has access to reward is something I consciously restrict. I agree a lot of people use the term drive but they are not always clear in what they mean by it. For example - a dog that is bouncing around excitedly isn't necessarily in drive. When a dog is in drive they are in a high level of arousal. drive is an adrenalin fueled behavior and a dog that goes through a drive motor pattern receives a chemical reward (the release of endorphins). I will commonly see people use a drive reward like a game of tug at the end of an exercise but the dog wasn't actually working in drive during the exercise. It's a topic that can be very in depth!

Maybe... and if people want to push it or argue with the way my dogs are raised and trained my standard response is "show me your dog" ;) Haha. I wasn't saying I'm one of them, I often take note of your posts with awe, but we certainly operate differently and we go OK in our own way! I didn't think you were - nothing to be in awe of with me, but my dogs are pretty awesome. :p :p :p Everyone has different standards and goals for their dogs - as long as it works for you, and doesn't cause any problems then there's no reason to change. We all want to enjoy our dogs and what creates joy for one person can differ for the next.

Maybe... and if people want to push it or argue with the way my dogs are raised and trained my standard response is "show me your dog" ;)

I don't know, what does "being a dog" really mean? I don't let my dogs play with other dogs and I don't generally say yes if people ask to pat them. My dogs don't have free run in my house. There's a lot of things I restrict them from doing or allow them to do that goes against the grain. I don't desex, vaccinate yearly and I feed a raw diet too... :laugh:

I didn't say corrections don't work in high distraction environments, I am all for using corrections appropriately - but I did say in response to Sheenas post that no training works well if you bypass every phase of learning and proofing and go straight to what the dog finds as the highest level of distraction.

Nek didn't say that. She said "not always foolproof IF the dog find the surrounding environment of higher value than the handler and the "treats" offered." Yep, but this is really true of any method you use, it's not effective to correct a dog in a high level of distraction if you haven't first taught, trained, and worked the dog up to being proofed in a highly arousing environment.

I said I disagree with your statement that clicker trianing is the best way to train dogs. This was in response to you saying; The clicker is just a tool, it is only as good or effective as the person using it. Just like every other tool. :) I think using clear communication (markers) in training is really beneficial no matter what training system you are using.