huski

But Megan, plenty of dogs that arent PBs fit the description of "large and powerful".

Anyone who thinks pitbulls are the only dog capable of attacking people needs to get their head checked. Ok, so we ban pitbullls, that's easier than focusing on what leads a dog to bite someone and how to prevent that from happening (just don't buy a pitbull and you'll be right!) - does anyone actually believe that banning pitbulls will stop or prevent dog attacks? How bloody ridiculous.

That the dog was a pitbull has nothing to do with this story at all. It's a cheap way to place the blame because it's easier to point the finger at the dog's breed rather than look at the REAL reasons why dogs attack people, children and other animals. So let's ban pit bulls - does anyone actually believe that will stop dog attacks? ANY DOG CAN BITE - and any dog is capable of aggression. Pitbulls aren't the only dogs that bite people. Until we focus on the real reasons behind why dogs bite people, dog attacks will continue to happen and by pointing the finger at the dog's breed, we learn nothing and we are encouraging people to believe that only certain dogs are capable of biting people. Steve from K9 Pro has been asked to fly to VIC and assess the dog, will be interesting to see whether that happens. http://www.k9pro.com.au/news/39/Dog-kills-child-

I agonized over this for a very long time, I am very picky about what I want in a dog and hadn't found a breed I thought ticked all my boxes - I was going to get another beagle just because there wasn't really anything else I wanted and I figured why not just go with what I know But I stumbled upon the breed for me and I just know it is the right choice I think you have to look at the criteria of what you want in every way - for example, I wanted a dog that would be high energy with loads of drive but I didn't want anything with a super hard temperament, I wanted something medium size without a high maintenance coat etc etc. These were all things I had to have to be happy to live with the dog and to be happy training it for what I wanted to do with it. There are probably a number of other breeds I'd be happy to live with that didn't fit the criteria for everything else I wanted in a dog too. RV - Brittany's were one of the breed I considered! I really like them

Go Vicki and Bo It was such a pleasure to meet you and Bo and see the wonderful bond you have now at the recent Sydney workshop. You will definitely be a pair to watch, Bo has awesome potential for agility (and obedience ) PS I am Shell won't mind sharing the image on DOL, it is watermarked

Personally I'd be getting the opinion of another trainer. The alpha dog stuff she told you sounds like utter crap IMO. I believe dominance exists in dogs but IMO a truly dominant dog is rare. ETA: at the end of the day you shouldn't have been left feeling that uncomfortable with what the trainer told you. A good trainer will make sure you are comfortable with their methods and understand what they've told you. There's no use in trying to put methods into practice you aren't comfortable with - even if they are right they won't work without 100% commitment from you.

I agree that what we feel and what the dog feels is not always the same but I do think that a lot of people have a perception that prong collars are an evil torture device and trying one on themselves will help give them a better understanding of the tool and how it works.

LOL RV - only because you think it will hurt! I love getting people to try my e-collar and asking when I'm going to stim them when I already have several times and they just havent noticed I don't think anyone who has felt an e-collar stim before would be afraid or anxious waiting for it.

This document may answer some of your questions http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=256463711047920

Not to want to take the thread too OT, but the problem with that argument is that: - Some dogs find head collars more aversive to wear than prong collars, there is nothing to prove or even suggest that head collars are a less aversive tool than other correctional collars like prongs - There is no one size fits all tool that is suitable for all dogs, owners and circumstances - head collars won't be the most suitable tool nor will work on every dog and vice versa with prong collars

I think people would like to teach their dog to walk on loose leash on a 'normal' (i.e. flat) collar, and if you train your puppy not to pull on the leash from day one this is achievable. However: - Most pet owners aren't aware that they even NEED to teach LLW, never mind knowing how to do it - This often results in a puppy that learns to pull on the leash and then grows bigger and stronger and gets to a point where it's owners are unable to control it - If the dog is lucky, the behaviour gets so bad that the owners seek help from a professional but by this point, pulling on the leash has been ingrained for so long (often years) that the owners need some leverage to help control the dog so learning can take place. This is when we bring in corrective tools like martingales or prong collars depending on the dog and the skill of the owner. The other thing to keep in mind is that most reputable trainers would probably be capable of training LLW to the majority of dogs they see on a flat collar but what they are capable of doing is irrelevant - they need to consider the skill and needs of their clients and the simple fact is that they need to be able to show the owner they can get results quickly in the consult time they have or the owner is likely to give up.

No, she's still a PITA little shit, but 4 1/2 years on she's relatively obedience at least

Well I think you do need to find an instructor that uses methods you are comfortable with. So the person needs to do some research first. I wouldn't trust any professional until they had earnt that trust. Oh, finding a reputable trainer is another topic all together, but once you have selected someone you think is the best (objectively of course) IMO I don't see any point in paying for their services if you aren't going to be able to trust their judgement as to what they think will work well for your dog.

I agree, I think at the end of the day it boils down to what the owner and/or their trainer think is best (god forbid I use that word) for the dog in question. IMO and experienced trainer can tell what methods will work best (again, forgive my use of the word) for the dog they have in front of them. Why else pay a professional to help you if you aren't going to trust their judgement on what is best (I did it again!) for your dog?

I haven't missed your point Corvus. My point is - how do we determine anything we do in dog training is the 'right' thing to do with our dogs? When you choose a method to use with your dogs how do you make that decision? Is it ever anything you can objectively judge? And, by the way, I've always loved your use of smarmy smiley faces. Though you really don't need to use them, your posts are arrogant and condescending enough without them. Well, dear, it sure worked for the anti-prong collar team in VIC didn't it... Surely you can't think that if we continue to ban tools like prongs, it won't have any carry-on effect on other aspects of dog ownership?

K9's written about the courses he's run for AQIS etc on his website before. http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages/AQIS-Training-Workshops-%252d-Handling-Dangerous-and-Aggressive-Dogs.html You know that reasoning is flawed, don't you? There is no possible way to judge that objectively. Nor is there anyway to "objectively judge" what training method is best for each dog etc. However, I'm sure you agree that there are methods or tools that would be ineffective or incorrect (i.e. won't give them the best or desired result) for a dog/handler to use with their dog. Why would you plug away with a method or tool that clearly will not or does not work? I wouldn't attempt to form an entire 'argument' based on one example but IMO giving examples of how the tool can and has worked very well doesn't hurt and can help illustrate the benefits of the tool. It's a proven marketing strategy. I'm not going to suggest that banning prong collars would lead to banning of pet dogs but you'd have to be stupid to think that if we allow the government to ban a tool like prong collars when there is no evidence they cause harm, it's a slippery and dangerous slope that will set a precedent in further regulation of dog owners and trainers.

Do you actually have anything to add, Mervin? Or just more shit stirring?

Yep I totally agree, I think that is what happens whenever the 'banning' argument comes up, the actual issues get lost in what is ultimately the smaller picture. I've been thinking a lot about this over the last few days and have got a couple of ideas to work on that will hopefully evolve into something a bit more practical.

And if we can ban a tool like a prong collar that has no evidence of causing harm or proof that it has a higher risk of injury or misuse than other corrective tools available, we are on a very slippery slope. What will be next? Check chains? E-collars? Martingales? Everything except flat collars?

Fuzzy, I am interested in how you can to the conclusion that most people won't use prong collars correctly? How did you come to this conclusion especially considering there are many more corrective training devices i.e. check chains and head collars that are far more readily available and just as likely as a prong collar to be used incorrectly? (perhaps more so, considering how widely available they are). What is wrong with using a prong collar as a first resort if it is in fact the best tool for the dog and handler in question? Wouldn't it be best to use the tool most suited to their situation rather than try a range of other tools that won't be as suitable or effective? Take the word prong collar in the above paragraph and replace it with the name of any other corrective collar and you could apply it to any training tool out there. As Staranise said earlier, where is the evidence that prong collars are significantly more open to abuse or less safe than other corrective tools? How can we judge how many people use prong collars correctly or incorrectly? Wouldn't the simple fact they are already less readily available than a range of other corrective tools lessen the chance that they will be used incorrectly in comparison to more readily available tools? And where did you get the idea that 90% of people who use prong collars wouldn't be using them properly? I am yet to see any evidence that prong collars have more potential for damage than any other corrective tool available on the market. So no, I don't think a ban makes sense at all.

Nothing better to do than fight for our right to choose what training methods and tools we use on our dogs? Or fight for the right to use a tool that has prevented dogs from being PTS? How about the plain and simple fact that IMO it's incredibly concerning that the government would ban a tool that has no proof or evidence of causing harm or injury to dogs? Then no, I guess I don't have anything better to do.

OMG! I remember that Great memory Haven!

I'll get the camo robes cleaned and ready for the prong collar worshipping ceremony

Don't get me started on the camo :rolleyes: :laugh: Neither this thread nor the FB page were started with the intention of repealing the laws in VIC (though I think they should be). I don't want to see the same law bought into QLD or anywhere else in Australia for that matter, which I am sure you can appreciate. What should we do? Sit around and do nothing?

Wait - I work for a cult leader? Crap, should have suspected something was dodgy with all the secret ceremonies in K9's hidden cellar with the shrine for prong collars and other medieval torture devices and camo print.