Tangwyn

Tell me about it. If someone can explain why indirect pressure works it would be a load off my mind!

Too true, Erny! Interpretation is the key (and sometimes problem) with most types of communication. When would you say a behaviour is "learnt" then? This is the aspect of Lablover's OP that sent me down the path of proofing and generalisation. Might I add, also, that dogs who have "learnt to learn" take far less reps to establish an association with a command than dogs who have not had previous training. My experience has always been that the hardest thing you ever teach a dog is the first thing you ever teach it. After that its easy-peasy ETA Erny, I must be channelling you... I just re-read one of your earlier posts and noticed you also used the phrase "learnt to learn"! Been one of my favourites for years and I thought I was the only one Ha Ha!

Hmmm... I'm going to throw a spanner in the works here. Personally, I don't think a command is taught until it is generalised and proofed. Just because the dog seems to "get it" with a few reps doesn't mean that it will still "get it" at a different time, place and with distractions. So I would have to say many repetitions in many different environments before I believe a command is taught IMHO Just noticed your reply W_S - I concur!!

Got me in one I have a Flatcoat now. Glutton for punishment if ever there was one!!

Hi Julie, Mature, fit Quarantine dogs actually work for up to an hour at a time (sometimes more if the handler is equally fit ). When you think about the fact that for this whole time the dog is actively searching, thinking, and weighing up all the odours they are inhaling its really quite incredible. Of course, like most dogs undergoing training they start off doing very short sessions - sometimes only a couple of minutes - and gradually build the focus and stamina needed for a longer search time. As you said, the aim is always to finish with the dog wanting more. This is the key to not only maintaining but building drive. With my own dogs I follow the same principles. I have a 3 1/2 month old pup at the moment that I am doing 2 or 3 five minute sessions a day with. This will get slightly longer as he gets older however not by much. I find that the Labs seem to be able to maintain focus alot longer than the other retriever breeds. I think that's what helps to make Labs so good with drill work! Unfortunately for my drill work aspirations I don't own a Lab My Golden always worked better with a couple of 10 minute sessions a day - any longer than that and his brain clocked off and went home for the day :D Tangwyn

My pup is also on Eagle Pack and I've been wondering the same thing about the white dots!! : I have been concerned he's not digesting some part of the diet properly (?). Have switched him to half Proplan Large Breed Adult half EP Puppy Large Breed in the last week or so and noticed an improvement. What's the go with Eagle Pack, then?

The intranasal spray for KC is meant to be more effective than the injection because the vaccine is basically sprayed directly into the upper respiratory tract. However, I no longer have my dogs vaccinated this way for a number of reasons. Firstly, most of them got side effects which included "reverse sneezing" for days and mild KC symptoms. Also, if the dog snorts the liquid out of its nose immediately after its inserted then the vaccine obviously won't be effective. There are probably 100's of different viruses/bacteria that cause different types of KC and the vaccines only work for two of them. That's why dogs will still get sick even though they are vaccinated. I wouldn't bother at all with the KC component only that most boarding kennels require a C5...

Hi, I no longer feed chicken necks or carcasses. My little Schipperke's sister choked to death on a chicken neck when she was fed and left unsupervised. My girl also collapsed, choking, when eating a neck but I was lucky that I was right there and able to drag it back out of her throat. I have also had a bad experience with raw chicken carcasses. My sheltie got one of the sharp bones wedged right up the back of her jaw and it gouged a big hole into her flesh. I didn't realise for prob a day or so because she didn't show any outward signs such as scraping at her mouth or rubbing her face etc. I felt absolutely sick when I checked her mouth due to the fact that she didn't eat her next dinner (she's normally an absolute hungry hippo). Also, when I was working as a vet nurse we had a little Yorkie come in with a perforated oesophagus caused by a raw chicken wing. I know plenty of people who have fed raw chicken bones for years without incident but I personally no longer take the risk. I feed my guys raw lamb brisket bones. They don't splinter, they're relatively soft and they can munch them all up. JMHO Tangwyn

Hi, I remember reading somewhere that testosterone levels in male pups actually peak around 7 - 8 weeks of age. This can explain why there seems to be alot of humping behaviours around that age and why, mostly, they subside or disappear as the pups get older. I have owned a few male pups and they all exhibited the behaviour and they all, in turn, grew out of it. I haven't found it to be dominance-based in little pups. My new puppy is currently 9 weeks old and he's busy trying to hump most things around the house. Thankfully he's held back on the visitors... :wink: Tangwyn ETA I don't correct my pups - just ignore them and get up and move away if necessary. Provided you don't actually praise the behaviour I'm fairly confident you won't need to introduce the use of aversives to discourage it.

Hi Brooke, My Golden Retriever used to do this. I didn't get him til he was 12 months old and he had a few (well ALOT) of bad habits. Since I wanted to do Retrieving Trials with him the quality of his retrieve was pretty important! I used a number of methods to sure up his retrieve. The easiest one is to put the dog on a long cord and reel him in if need be. Praise when he gets to you with the toy/retrieve article, give lots and lots of praise, and don't take the article off him immediately. If he drops it as he's being reeled in - no biggy - don't praise, give him a time out (I took his toy and went inside the house and waited for a minute or two). I NEVER allowed the dog to immediately do another retrieve unless the one he had just completed was acceptable. In many dogs' minds the retrieve (or chase) is very rewarding so it is very easy to re-inforce unacceptable behaviour by perpetuating the game. Every time the dog throws something else at you go inside and leave him on his own. He'll soon learn that bombarding you with inanimate objects leads to "Game Over". And if all else fails there's always the Force Fetch! (ducks for cover ) Hope this helps Tangwyn

I think you might be a bit confused by CTD discussing their gundog breeds. I believe Tia is actually a Border Collie so, depending on her bloodline, she certainly has more chance of succeeding at herding than a Flatcoat! Tangwyn

Hi, My limits vary according to the time of day (and my mood at the time! ). I live next door to a GSD that is never taken out of his yard. His part of their backyard is situated pretty much right near my bedroom and he barks at all hours of the night and through to the early hours of the morning. Lately he has taken to throwing himself up against the colourbond fence that divides my yard from his. :D I have no idea why, as my dogs completely ignore him and aren't even near the fence at the time. On the other side there is a cross-bred dog that barks every time I go near that side of my house. I can't go out into my backyard without inciting one of the neighbouring dogs and the GSD barks even if he hears me moving around or talking inside my own house! The most frustrating thing for me is that I've NEVER heard either of the neighbours chastize their dogs for barking! I'm so paranoid about mine making a sound that I'm straight onto them - and that's not even at 3am in the morning I have not complained about either of these dogs as I'm loathe to upset anyone given that I have dogs of my own and I definitely don't want to start some sort of "payback". Tangwyn ETA As for de-barking - I agree with it given the right circumstances. I'm sure its preferable to being yelled at or even hit all the time for barking...

Not sure if that's necessarily the de-barking. My little Schip bitch, who has retired to live with my Mum, also snuffles and huffs and puffs all the time. It has more to do with a congenital enlongated soft palate than de-barking as she's not been done. Tangwyn

Hi CTD, (Sorry all for heading but) yes, I did speak to Judy and she was really lovely She was so helpful and friendly and her dogs were gorgeous. I looked at the pups on Sunday. Really pleased with the quality in the litter - the pups were even in type and temperament. The breeder has done a great job with them. Ranked my favourites 1 to 3 and will be happy with any of those. Can't wait to get my boy home and get started! Tangwyn

Thanks CTD. I have heard of the "lickiness"! I went and met some flatties at the Spring Fair (Bushman Kennels) and they were extremely friendly but not too licky. Yours sounds lovely

It is not as uncommon as one would expect for vaccinated dogs to die of parvo. Having worked in a couple of different vet clinics I have seen this happen. There seems to be a definite issue with Rottweilers. There's something about their immune systems that mean some of them don't have a good response to the vaccine. We NEVER used expired vaccines and it wasn't an issue with maternal antibodies because occasionally the dogs would be well over 12 months old (and up to date with booster shots). Tangwyn ETA This link provides some more info http://www.mismr.org/educational/parvo.html

Thanks all for your helpful insights. Food for thought... Tangwyn

Hmmm... people usually choose the pup that chooses them ie the pup that comes and sits on their feet or their lap. If I was to choose the pup that no-one else wanted it would generally be the one that was too busy off getting into trouble to bother with people. So either you're telling me to choose the high prey drive pup with low pack drive or you're telling me to take the runty pup with a bung eye that no-one else would want! ha ha :p Is my guessing close? I agree that the most important thing in choosing a pup is choosing the pedigree. However, this is not so easy with flatcoats. Labrador Retrievers have a number of breeders in this country that have selected for working ability over many generations. It is, therefore, relatively simple to select a litter based on a suitable bloodline. The gene pool for flatcoats is very small in this country and there are hardly any people breeding with working dogs in mind. For this reason I have selected a litter based on a bloodline of physically sound dogs with nice temperaments. Some dogs in the bloodline have had success in retrieving trials but many of the others have not been exposed to retrieving work. Perhaps they may have been good working dogs or perhaps not. Its a bit hard to know when the animals are not trained or trialled! So this time, unfortunately, it will not be a case of "eeny-meeny-miney-mo" because there is a reasonable chance that most of the pups in the litter won't be suitable for high level trialling. I believe just about any retriever, given enough work, can attain NRD or even RRD but only a select few have the soundness and temperament to take on All Age (even in the hands of an experienced trainer which I'm not) . I'm looking to maximise my chances of choosing a pup in this litter than can be capable of doing this. Cosmolo, I think you're speaking sense when you suggest walking away from a litter if there isn't a pup with high drive and trainability. I was doing my calculations recently and worked out it takes around 1000 hours minimum of training to make a RTCh - that's alot of time to waste on a second rate dog... I'll be viewing the litter on Sunday. Fingers crossed :rolleyes: Tangwyn

Hi Jeff and c-j, Thanks for both your replies. Your opinions support my experiences with training a highly-driven dog that had little interest in pleasing or being with me. I was wondering, though, if my issues were as a result of not using the right training approach but perhaps not. He was exceptionally hard-headed and relatively oblivious to rewards and aversives unless they involved his prey drive (ie with-holding a bird because of incorrect behaviour or allowing a retrieve due to correct behaviour). I meant absolutely zero to him! If the puppy that takes his toy and runs away is going to develop into the same dog as I had in the past then I'll be taking the pup that wants to share his toy with me! If not because of the difficulty in training then because its really pleasing to actually spend time with a dog that cares about you! :rolleyes: Many thanks again, Tangwyn P.S. c-j I believe you might have had a flatcoat before? I'm getting one of those. Any tips??

Hi All, I have a question based on a puppy selection scenario. I am about to choose a pup for retrieving/obedience etc. I know the ideal pup is the outgoing, prey-driven one that still likes to come when you call it and will bring the retrieve article back to you (high pack drive). However, if the boldest, most active and prey driven puppy is also the most independant, (eg prefers to take the retrieve article off somewhere to have it for himself ) is it possible to achieve good training results using that drive? ie does the pup with high prey drive that seeks to please himself have the potential to outperform the pup with moderate prey drive that seeks to please his owner (high pack drive)? Does this make sense? Thanks in advance for any advice! Tangwyn

Hi Rom, Sounds to me like he hasn't carried out the force fetch process properly. Its not a punishment and, carried out correctly, should not cause the dog pain or induce fear or head shyness. As with most things, if you're going to do it properly it takes time and patience. The biggest cause of problems with force fetch are caused by people rushing it, losing patience or lacking the timing or experience to recognise the correct moment to release pressure and reward. If the poor dog is offering something even close to the correct behaviour and the trainer continues to apply (or increase ) pressure it can be detrimental to the dog. Like most animal training techniques and processes there is always potential for abuse by uneducated or ignorant trainers. It doesn't mean that its not a valuable tool if used properly. Tangwyn

Hi Country Joe, I think the book you're referring to is "Training Retrievers for Marshes and Meadows" by James B. Spencer. An excellent read. A good account of force fetch (or the formal retrieve as she likes to call it) is also to be found in Terri Arnold's "Steppin' Up To Success". I quite like her method because she teaches the fun retrieve first, motivates the send and return and then introduces the formal retrieve using the "create, cause and correct" progression. In Terri's words you "pinch so as to cause mild discomfort, not pain. You want just enough to get a response - no less, no more." Tangwyn

Hmmm... according to your blog, CTD, on the same day you picked up your puppy you did the following: Taught targetting and "touch" command Recall Sit Drop Did 4 sessions of socialisation Introduced the sandpit Lured into the pool x 3 times How old is this puppy? I'd give her a few days to settle in before assessing any drives. Any assessment of food and prey drive would have been more effectively conducted BEFORE you took it home. It would have given you a more accurate idea of where she was at. JMO Tangwyn

Hi Sheree-lee, Whiny neighbours make life tough don't they! The problem is, to me, it sounds like your puppy is doing a good job of training you! If you give in to her crying you re-inforce the behaviour and she will learn to cry longer and louder to get her way. Before you know it you will be completely at her beck and call I agree with the other sensible posters here and suggest that you try lots of toys. Kongs stuffed with treats are fantastic. I would start by sitting quietly outside with her while she chews and licks at them and then finally sneak inside the house while she's distracted. I would also feed her her dinner in the back yard not in the kitchen. If she likes treats you can hide them around the backyard so that she wastes time out there searching for them. If you can make her busy outside for even a short time it will give you a chance to let her in the house when she's not crying. She needs to learn that its you that makes the rules! People need to keep their dogs outside for many reasons and, because it appears you only have a small yard, a small dog is probably the best solution for you. I think it is far better that she is set up with a comfortable bed outside than locked inside busting to go to the toilet all day while the family are out! :shakehead: Good luck! :D Tangwyn

Hi nell, I have to agree with Working_Setters and say that, unfortunately, it is a very rare Cocker that would have any remaining natural gundog ability. There used to be a young girl who trialled a Golden Cocker in Qld and did quite well but that was probably 7 years ago and I've never seen or heard of another since. If you would like to pursue obedience and agility I would definitely choose a breeder who has prioritised brains as well as beauty - after all your Cocker will be a part of your family not just a pretty face :p As for clicker training I think its suitable for every dog. Good luck! Tangwyn