Luke GSP

Don't even get me started on this one granny. Humans are, to me, very similar to dogs, we need to know where we stand and what is and is not acceptable. Whenever people talk to me about raising children I find myself sounding like Cesar Milan "Rules, bounderies and limitations" which I believe are taught through consisteancy and planning rather than making the parameters up as you go along. The difficult thing for most parents IMO is that all children are very different, for instance my son gets very hurt if he believes you are angry with him where my 5 year old daughter can look you square in the face and smile whilst being told off. Obviously the smiling could be a sign of disobedience/defiance but you could also see it as a diversionary tactic such as some people develop ie some people laugh while under stress whilst others cry. Either way we find that a time out works wonders with my daughter where it would have little effect on my son. Alot of people want one size fits all parenting (and puppy training) and you simply cannot do it. All children and dogs are different the art is to work out what avereries work for the subject in question and apply it at the right time, in line with the severity of the "wrong doing" whilst making sure that the subject understands what it is being punished for. I do not believe that purely positive (ie ignore negative or try to divert or distract away from negative behaviour) is a healthy way to raise kids or dogs as the world does not work that way. If a human or animal makes a mistake in the big wide world they may well be penalised, whether that is hurting or being hurt physically or mentally. It's what nature does, it presents us all with choices and once we make those choices their are outcomes, some are nice and some are not. I try and teach my children this as I believe that the earlier you teach someone to think before they act the smoother their passage through life will be. :D Told you not to get me started

I don't know if this is true but someone told me that the poop used to be white because dogs ate more bones then, hence more calcium in their diet. Could be a load of old Cr*p though :rolleyes: pardon the pun (Sorry, my bad)

Personally I disagree with this statement! The problem is people having UNTRAINED & Uncontrollable Dogs of any size on or off lead and expecting other people to put up with their badly behaved dogs, JUST because they are big dogs does not mean you have to be big to control him/her, Just train the dog properly BEFORE you inflict it on other people IMOH. I do sympathize with the O.P. and would suggest that maybe a walk at the usual time But without your dog and try to find out where the off lead dog/dogs lives and/or take photos and send them to the council complaining that this is a regular occurrence in this street or this dog is always roaming outside of my house. I have always found that when I have sent photos of the dog to our council and named the street or the house # that I believe it comes from slowly but surely the problem has diminished! But then I do not live in the O.P.’s Shire and our Shire is very happy to act on photographic evidence if they can find the owner. As we live in a rural Township it is not always possible to get the Ranger out in time to catch the offending dog, since one of my dogs were attacked by a dog at the off-lead park (with no owner in sight) I always have my camera in my pocket and ready to go if needed, also surprising how many folk soon find a plastic bag to clean up after the dog they are trying to ignore when it is doing its doo-doo when you just pull the a camera out of the pocket as you walk past on the other side of the road I have been known to offer a spare bag to someone that obviously hasn’t got one, it has always been accepted with a “thank you”, But my husband always tells me he worries about me doing this.. but I can’t help myself, if you want to change peoples attitudes they have to be first encouraged and helped then maybe we can all live in harmony with our dogs and other owners. That's why I wrote "Obviously the owner having them under enough control so as not to do a runner in the first place is place to be in though." as the second line of the post that you are quoting. Another issue is the definition of "effective control" as I see it as one of those legal definitions like "reasonable force". For instance, If your dog, whilst on a lead, sniffs someone as they walk by. is that having your dog under effective control? To most this would appear effective control but My ssister had an issue with her local council when one of her huskies motioned to sniff a passing child and the child freaked out and was screaming and crying. There was no actual contact in any form and the dog didn't walk up to the child it literally moved it's head 45 degrees to look/sniff the childs general direction as it walked past. It took several discussions with her local council to get that little fiasco ironed out. It is a very difficult subject.

Which is why I asked the question, I could see all the other tick boxes being checked for drive initiation and increasing drive but could not see how you could give drive satisfaction.

I had mine chased by two great danes who were on lead but dragged the lead out of their owner's hand! Mine dived under a parked car to get away from them. That's the problem with people having big dogs even when they are on lead you have got to be strong enough to hold on. Obviously the owner having them under enough control so as not to do a runner in the first place is place to be in though.

Adult Chicken and Rice. I did try the Salmon one when monte was having some skin issues but Molly wasn't keen and it didn't seem to help any more with his coat. They already have fish and flaxseed oil capsules. I am really stumped as to what it might be?

Understand that, just wanted to let people know that this was not a regime that had been implemented just an observation of a situation the other night that made me think?

That's the main problem I was having erny, hence this post. i can see that it can initiate a drive response and raise drive very quickly but I was stumped when it came to satisfaction.

That's why I am asking the question, My dogs are and always have been obsessed with any small object that moves in the day and any object that moves and is lit at night. My thought and the reason for asking the question is whether or not it is pssible to harness that obsession? Out of interest if you were drive training with a tug for instance why is that "safer" than a moving laser pointer dot? The dog does not go around tugging everything it sees from that day on? Both are being used to raise the drive within the dog and you would always use a trigger for the game to begin such as "play time" and of course a verbal marker for when drive play ends. I am not trying to argue the point just sounding out an idea/thought process? Please before everyone flames me It is something I tried as an experiment whilst outside looking for a ball my son had lost not a training regime that I have implemented. That is why I am asking the question here I would never implement a regime that I had not sounded out thouroughly.

Both my dogs go nuts over chasing flaslight beams or laser pointer dots whenever they have seen them. Would it be possible to use one for drive training? It seems to work as a stimuli and definately gets them past their threshold in to drive and they increase their drive at a fair rate of knots. the problem is I cannot see how they would get drive satisfaction from it as they never actually get hold of it? As an experiment, I tried the other night with my male moving a torch beam until he was seriously focused and then turned it off. I then issued a command and as soon as he did as instructed I gave him a verbal marker and then turned the torch back on giving him praise at every oppurtunity. He seemed to have a great time and his level of focus was the highhest I have ever seen it. I would be really interested to hear everyones thoughts so please comment and discuss! Unless of course the light coming back on was drive satisfaction from his point of view? I saw it as Light appears and starts moving = stimuli Dog starts to follow the light with eye = drive initiation dog get faster and more focused starts to pounce and chase light= increasing drive command issued and light goes off = prompting action Compliance to action light comes back on and begins moving again= implanting memory of action and gaining drive satisfaction? :p

I believe that in the Sutherland shire you can only walk dogs on lead in any public area unless they are in a designated off leash park. Contact the council there I am sure they will put you right. I have seen the same situations as you here and have also had both of mine charged by a great dane whilst mine were on a leash. Thankfully mine did not react.

I have always tweaked their food as well but it always tended to be +/- 15-20% from the amounts above, never as much as this time ie 50% increase.

They are outside in the day and then come in all evening and the night until about 08:30 in the morning, apart from toilet breaks of course.

They have had Purina Pro plan all their lives

Has anyone noticed a change in Purina Pro Plan? I used to feed my male pointer 3 cups a day and the female 4 cups. He is small 23KG and she is a boofa 27KG without an ounce of fat. I have had to increase the amount of pro plan that I have been feeding them considerably lately to stop them losing weight. My male now has 4.5 cups a day and the female 6 cups? Anyone else had an issue?

Dennis_c In one post you claim a radial pattern and then you correct someone in your next post by saying that current conducts? :p Please, before replying, I don't need a physics lesson. I understand electronics. I don't undertsand why you feel that you can use a terminology and then correct someone for using it in their reply? I checked on wilkapedia and it said, A radial pattern is one that appears to radiate from a point. If you are going to ask for pinpoint accuracy from others posts perhaps you should use pinpoint accuracy in yours!

Dennis_c Okay Dennis, lets stick to fact and evidence in regard to using a remote training collar on a real life dog . My dog who would chase anything and everything previously has not chased anything unless released with a command since using the e-collar. When we put it on his tail wagged like crazy his eyes were bright and he stayed that way during our entire training sessions. Several months on he is still the same, he has not been stimmed for nearly a month now. Why not? because he does what he is supposed to. That is a fact that I have witnessed first hand and that is the evidence base that I am coming from. Now what facts or evidence do you have in respect to the training that I conducted with my dog? You cannot discuss the physics of the stim used as you do not know what level of stim, what that level equated to or the output of the device i used. You say that you prefer a well timed time out, have you ever studied what level of stress removing a dog from it's pack causes? Maybe you should conduct such a study before claiming that e-collars cause stress to the animal which in term suggests that other methods don't, of course they do, every challenge that an animal faces will evoke some form of stress. If Midol is a "layman" that does not mean that their view is wrong! When you are as condisending as you are towards people who work with these collars and all seem to have happy, healthy, stress free dogs that are now free of issues or the threat of destruction orders what do you expect? Sadly for you Their real life experience with their dog contradicts your beliefs and studies that you are quoting. Have you seen monelites video? Rex looks quite happy to me? being an electrical engineer does not make your judgement of the e-collar as a valid tool for training a dog worth any more than the next person. Especially if you have not tried one or kept up to date with the modern low stim methods. Please also bear in mind that some people may be using the collars to prevent much more serious harm coming to their dogs than the e-collar could possibly do (destruction orders, snake proofing etc)

My gawd, talk about over the top... I said You can momentarily distract the dog with a clicker.....no type of situation was mentioned... but be as sarcastic as you like.. it wont win you any brownie points with me. No sorry erny, no fairness with people like Luke and Tony and others that feel sarcasm will help in discussing my 'sweeping statement'. If they actually cared for the product they are defending then they wouldn't carry on the way they do. How do you know how much shock the dog feels? This is what I have a problem with. Who can honestly know this? My staffy is a pretty determined bitch, would she withstand the highest setting because she loves chasing the pigeons that much? I would say she would. She is a stubborn dog and very very determined. 1, your original posted statement was "this type of training tool should never be allowd on any animal." I think you will find that if you make "sweeping statements" like that about a training tool that you know nothing about other than what you have seen in a video clip on you tube you will get a face full. My dogs lives have been transformed by the e-collar, they can now freely roam with me through whatever terrain safe in the knowledge that no matter what, they will come running back to me with a single command. NO MATTER WHAT THE DISTRACTION IS! without an ecollar I could not have achieved this level of freedom for my high prey drive dogs off leash. As to me using sarcasm what would you like me to do? Discuss your points? You didn't make any points only uninformed sweeping statements. Kind of hard to put a point by point case to a person that has made a general condemnation of something you know is untrue. 2,As to "How do you know how much shock the dog feels? This is what I have a problem with. Who can honestly know this?" I know what the collar feels like because I used it on myself first to find out using different skin areas as some part of your body are more/less sensitive. I have never taken my dog to a level that I have not experienced myself. What experiences have YOU had with a collar? That is why people like you aannoy me. You make sweeping statements about something that you know nothing about and have not bothered to research in any way. 3, In regard to your staffy, I would be amazed if she could with stand it. All dogs have a threshold/ working level. the art is to apply the stim before the dog reaches drive threshold or at least drive initiation rather than waiting for drive peak to try and stop a behaviour. As with any training method it is about TIMING!

Denis c please read midols post again and then if it still does not make sense read once more as I think you will find that it is logical. It is not the easiest sentance to read (no offence midol) but it does make logical sense. Basically I believe that midols point was. humane=why use the collar only for problems or last resorts? Why not use it for any training regime that it is applicable? inhumane= never use it even as a last resort.

The problem with that is that it might get stuck in our GSP's throats when they accidentally swallow the SWF :D JOKE, Slipping in to my flame retardent suit as we speak.

You are right it is not about clickers but earlier on in the thread one of the anti ecollar protestors claimed that you could stop a dog on a rampage just as efficiantly with a clicker. That's just someone who obviously doesn't understand how the clicker works if they mean CLICK to make your dog suddenly turn away from a rabbit. Spot on! it would appear that they understand clicker training about as well as they understand ecollars. ;) This entire thread looks like someone saw a video of an idiot got over emotional and under informed and then made the original post.

Your dog does not have to be "problematic" in the sense of having nightmare issues to use one, you may use it to increase focus for instance or to speed up a return/retrieve or raise the dogs sense of urgency whilst tackling an agility run. Very rarely do people use them in the old fashioned way of dog does wrong = gets zapped (Avoidance method) Try and think of it more as a tap on the shoulder than a smack on the bum! The best analogy I can give is that if you asked your child a question and they ignored you because they were watching telly would you A, tell them off or B, tap them on the shoulder to get their attention away from the tele and then ask again saying thankyou once they have completed the task? One of them is a punishment then command the other is a precursor to a command followed by praise once the desired behaviour is complete. (The escape method) Before using any method of training including an ecollar I would discuss the behaviour that you are trying to correct/modify with a good behaviourist/trainer and the n formulate a suitable strategy to deal with it which may or may not use an ecollar but what ever it entails keep an open mind.

You are right it is not about clickers but earlier on in the thread one of the anti ecollar protestors claimed that you could stop a dog on a rampage just as efficiantly with a clicker.

I found this video hard to watch, the dog is obviously suffering terribly at the hands of it's evil owner looking for a short cut to an obedient dog. If only the owner was prepared to put the time in to train the dog with a clicker it wouldn't have to endure such pain. :rolleyes: Incredible the difference when you see something applied by an inteligent and capable owner, isn't it.

So positive is correction after displaying the unwanted behaviour and ignoring the command (avoidance) where Negative training the dog is precursored with the stim and learns to turn the collar off by complying with your command (The escape method)? is that right? Sorry if I am being a lttle slow on the uptake but it is a Sunday