Luke GSP

Great video, hard to see what the bird is trying to get to, is it food? If it were I would have thought that it was still OC as their was an applied reinforcement at the end ie i did this and I got a good thing? I suppose that the main difference is that the animal is performing a task to solve a problem with no pointers or cues but I would have thought that the outcome was still +R????

But I thought that classical conditioning was an involuntary response to a stimulus so wouldn't shaking the coat be a vountary action and hence if praised afterwards be an example of +R??? that is why I would have thought that drive would be classical conditioning as I thought that it was an involuntary response to the stimuli ie the dog does not decide to become aroused but rather it depended upon when the stimulus met the dogs threshold?

i would have thought that other than bridge items such as charging a clicker classical responces would tend to be unusable as a behaviour you would wish to harness as an outcome? However, is drive training classed as harnessing a classical conditioned responce to then develop an opperant conditioned outcome? ie drive training toy used to evoke drive initiation (classical conditioning?) once drive peak is iminent toy removed or neutralised, command given behaviour/action displayed toy returns or brought back to life = drive satisfaction and reinforcement through +r. Please note Not a statement just typing as cogs grind in brain so probably utter KAKA!

i am talking about influencing a behaviour in the sense of I want you to do this or i dont want you to do this "voluntary" action not classical conditioning in the form of a pavlovs dogs way or in a response/behavior way like desensitization although isn't desensitization extinction in a sense?

This may be a dumb question ;) but I have always been a slow learner. Am I correct in thinking that All forms of training ie influencing a behavior is operant conditioning? I have racked my brains and cannot come up with any training method that i know of that cannot be explained with either -/+P -/+R or E

It makes much more sense to me now, as it it would appear to me that the names are really just non emotional/non moral labels as opposed to the implied moral stance of the word positive or negative when used by some people?

Yep you are right - taking something away from the dog that increases a behaviour The article linked explained it well but used a bad example - I don't know anyone who teaches sit by pulling up on the collar! The most usual examples given are the forced retrieve like you gave or the use of an ecollar where the stim is given and when the dog complies the stim is turned off. The pre command stim on a e-collar makes sense to me, thanks it does raise the question though that when people talk about purely positive methods they are surely talking about purely +R -P +P?

Hi everyone, Just wondering if someone could clarify positive +/- I believe that positive + would be the application or introduction (adding) of something to reward a correct action or responce, such as telling a dog to sit and then giving it a food treat or stroke etc once that action was completed. I am however struggling with positive- as it suggests to me that something is taken away but I am struggling to think of an example? Probably a dumb question but I cannot see why a dog would do something that would get something removed unless the something was in some form or another negative? as in when people pinch train gun dogs to keep hold of an item until told to release.(Obviously I am not suggesting that this would be an example of positive- just looking for an example of application, complete desired action, remove application or if you do this then I will remove X which is what you (the dog) desire) Maybe I have got it all wrong but in my head I have always though that the =/- refered purely to whether you added something or took something away?

double post

But what if your dog does come back but is a dog looking for a discount ie I will come back but i will chase this bird/roo/snake first and as soon as i have satisfied my prey drive I will be right with you? Especially if they have satisfied such a drive without you being present such as chasing birds in your back yard while you are at work for instance? The dog has assigmned a value to that activity and now when you recall the dog it is waying up the two values ie returning to you = Vs if i catch that bird/snake/roo it =. The dog has learnt that chasing the birds satisfies its prey drive all on it's own, repeatedly, perhaps several times a day? It is very hard to then compete with such a learnt drive manifestation and satisfaction on the two days a week that you would like to run your dog off leash (in addition to their daily on leash walks). It is not about whether the dog nows what to do but whether or not the dogs focus is on what you are saying or on the prey item that it is chasing and which of those activities has a greater value in the dogs mind. I am a little concerned at your "shock" reference as well as, modern e-collar methods are not usually about large corrections when training unless you are trying to give the dog a very negative perception of an activity such as the way that some people use e-collars for Snake proofing for instance. Saying that I would guess that most owners would prefer that their dog had a few negative but controlled snake like experiences and learnt to avoid such things completely rather than trying to figure out a strategy to deal with one once the dog is confronted with a full size Brown snake face to face. If i have misunderstood what you meant by the word "shock" then i apologise but it would probably be best to read up a bit on the way that collars are used these days before jumping to conclusions about "shocking" a dog. A lot of collar work is now carried out with tiny stimulations and i mean tiny ie my mother who was anti e-collar tried it on her own neck and on the inside of her own wrist and could not feel the stim at the working level for my dogs. I used a level of 12-14 out of a range of 0-127. The way that most collars are used now is more as a tap on the shoulder/prompt than a correction.

I find it a bit sad that there's nothing local. Do people think there's any hope of training up someone . . . eg, taking advantage of k9 force expertise? but getting a group together? btw, I was first impressed by e-collar training on a forum for Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. High drive dog, much more alpha tendency than Labbies. Poorly suited to WA because their coats are very thick and they are water nuts . . . not to mention being a bit hard for the average Joe to handle. . . so I settled for Labbies. On the Chessie forum, someone was talking about being able to halt a Chess mid-retrieve and get it to respond to a recall. Others confirmed the experience. That is impressive. e collars are impressive they can change both your dogs and in turn your life in regard to freedoms that could be explored. Sadly there is still a very negative belief about the use of e-collars, mainly based on misconception and misinformation as to their use in modern training. Be prepared for that, as people will judge if they find out you use one. however, you will also be approached by numerous owners asking how the hell you managed to get your dogs to play on a beach happily together off leash and not run off after the flock of birds that all the other dogs on the beach are chasing. Not that your dogs won't chase a bird, on the contary they will chase it if you let them go but they will also come back if you call them back. It all depends what you want them to do? K9 force can supply a manual explaining all the different methods of e-collar use give Steve a call I am sure you will not regret it?

I'd give K9 Force from this forum a call or PM him. I am sure that he would be able to put you on the right way f tackling your problem. He also does distance learning packages i believe.

why not? :rolleyes: not a loaded question, i have no preference either way just wondering.

I love candid portraits. preferably with little eye contact but plenty of personality. I find a good zoom helps as the subject tends to be oblivious to the fact that you are taking a picture and hence doesn't pose.

Very Pink Floyd!

Would a picture of your wife qualify as a kitchen appliance? :laugh: :rofl:

I use mac preview to import my pictures to my own file system and then delete what I don't want before importing them in to iphoto or aperture. I do not know this for a fact but i believe the reason you cannot find your originals may be that iphoto actually works in an odd way ie when you edit the photo it does not actually change the image itself until you export it, it saves the original and then remembers the changes that you have made so you can go back later and undo them if you wish. The changes are not permanent until you actually export the edited image. I may be wrong but I have a feeling it is a reason such as this as to why you may be experiencing issues. i have two folders an imoprt folder that is devided in to categories family, dogs, ebay, arty farty etc and then and then the same set of folders for edited (keepers) that way I always have the original and know which have been edited and which have not.

Very cool, I truly admire the truly organic approach you took rather than digital trickery.

Sorry got a bit carried away! Not a leg to stand on Can we do two categories in one pic? Not strictly a toy but some people play with it like one and the money box is a plastic pig?

I have also always used Photobucket. I just upload from the Mac and then I can access the pics from anywhere. i also use it to send pics of the kids to their grandparents in the UK it's a great way of sharing images.

Back to the drawing board for that new lens then Ruthless!

Ruthless, you're broken

Similar to houses and location the secret to cameras is glass,glass, glass ! IMO Never skimp on a lens unless you have to, you will not regret it IT!

Vickie, What editting software do you use? I currently have Apperture but am thinking of moving to either Photoshop or paintshop pro?

Sorry about the fork shot it's a bit p*ss weak