Luke GSP

Kavik, I am a little confused perhaps you could explain your post a little for me? Could you give me an example of a positive punishment that you could use on a dog who constantly chases moving prey items ie rabbits birds etc? I am not trying to be an a hole, and I promise this is not a loaded question I genuinely want to understand the difference between the two.

What constructive information have you added? I have seen a load of "opinion" and "sweeping statements" from you with little factual evidence. What actual training have you actually seen where an e-collar was used? ON telly (Balls of steel) I saw some guys throwing darts in to each others arses! Should we ban all darts? I have also seen guys drop a billiard ball on anothers private parts from four storeys! Should we ban billiard balls? POINT?Everything can be abused by an idiot. Out of interest when you discuss the subject of e-collars are you refering to their use in which method Avoidance Training Focus and control Tap and Bounce or Guidance system? As to the question should e-collars be available over the counter of every store? I believe NO. on the other hand I also believe that a person should not be able to own, buy, sell or breed a dog without some level of formal training or knowledge,and I am not talking about how many times to feed rover a day. An e-collar is a tool, as is a clicker, check chains, treats, prongs, our voice, our body language etc they can all be used with great success. the choice of tool largely depends on the job (dog) in question. You would not try and undo a nut with a screw driver. All the aforementioned tools have their place, used correctly, Applied inteligently and not abused. Clickers are great if your dog is in to them, and also depending on the training you are trying to do. I would like to know how people would suggest that you Snake proof a dog with a clicker?

Hi! I have just searched the site for this exact topic and this thread appeared. We have a 7 month old Hungarian Puli with terrible recall .. her sits, drops, roll overs, shake hands (I know the last two have little importance ) are great ... she loves chasing and retrieving balls/dumbells and is very social with humans and other dogs ... all fabulous traits and we are very proud of her and our efforts in this regard. Fully crate trained at night and toilet trained so we have to look on the bright side of her development except for this one 'thorn in our side'. I have tried recall on an 11m tracking lead with cheese/cabana/cooked chicken ... etc etc etc as the reward .... result :....."Sorry mum ain't coming as other things are more interesting" ... yep, reeled her in ... again and again.............. and again ..... no sign of improvement (just sore wrists from me reeling her in . Her loose lead walking is coming along nicely may I say .... no food rewards only verbal commands and praise and she looks up at me in the face (yep from under all of that hair) as if to say "Am I doing good mum?"..... just the recall is not working. Can I add the loose lead walking is also getting better with distraction of other dogs too which is great. By the way recall in the cricket nets ot in the basketball courts at obedience she is A+++!! Mind you she gets ultra hyped when every other dog goes before her! She wants to run when they are called .... to THEIR owner! I think the running dog is the drive factor for her though ..... she must think the other breeds are 'deformed sheep' ready for her to herd!! So,...ideas for the positive 'reinforcement' please? Food is of no interest to her. I so want her to be able to play off lead down at the park .... she is a great little girl that is very social and LOVES to run. I would talk to a good trainer about drive training, if your dog is of the right persuasion prey drive would be more alluring than food.

What you have typed is very interesting but my concern with that phylosophy is that very few people can control their dogs environment enough to stop any outside stimuli that might trigger a drive response. If that dog responds to that drive stimuli by deciding to run and then gains drive satisfaction what is to say that at some point the dog might have to decide whether or not the payment you are offering (food,walks, cuddles etc) might not be worth as much as the "potential satisfaction of satisfying it's previously unchecked drive just one more time? Surely then, by your last statement you are saying that your recall is not 100%? Not having a go, I am just trying to gauge what you feel is acceptable. IMO my dogs must come EVERY time I call them, no if's no buts.If a dog comes 99% of the time that means that you have a 1% chance that the one time it is running to the road in front of that truck is the one time your call might fail. I find the subject of recall interesting as most people say that their dog is really reliable and then put a proviso there such as "as long as there aren't birds/people/other dogs/cars etc" that to me is not reliable. I might add that until a few months ago I was also one of those people with a proviso. What did you do differently to change this? Spoke to Steve at K9 Force and put a regime in place that has literally changed our lives in as far as what we can and cannot do with our dogs. Before talking to him I would not have dared take our male off the lead as he would have locked on to any moving object and ran,ran,ran. Steve talks to you in a way you can understand and then suggests a solution that works for both you and your dog, he also explains the science behind it all if you want to get that in depth about it. Well if only Steve from K9 were in Vic Id get his help in a flash! Heard great things, training in drive is one thing Id love to do with our GSD... He does correspondence (spelling )courses as well you know. Give him a cal l I am sure he could help.

What you have typed is very interesting but my concern with that phylosophy is that very few people can control their dogs environment enough to stop any outside stimuli that might trigger a drive response. If that dog responds to that drive stimuli by deciding to run and then gains drive satisfaction what is to say that at some point the dog might have to decide whether or not the payment you are offering (food,walks, cuddles etc) might not be worth as much as the "potential satisfaction of satisfying it's previously unchecked drive just one more time? Surely then, by your last statement you are saying that your recall is not 100%? Not having a go, I am just trying to gauge what you feel is acceptable. IMO my dogs must come EVERY time I call them, no if's no buts.If a dog comes 99% of the time that means that you have a 1% chance that the one time it is running to the road in front of that truck is the one time your call might fail. I find the subject of recall interesting as most people say that their dog is really reliable and then put a proviso there such as "as long as there aren't birds/people/other dogs/cars etc" that to me is not reliable. I might add that until a few months ago I was also one of those people with a proviso. What did you do differently to change this? Spoke to Steve at K9 Force and put a regime in place that has literally changed our lives in as far as what we can and cannot do with our dogs. Before talking to him I would not have dared take our male off the lead as he would have locked on to any moving object and ran,ran,ran. Steve talks to you in a way you can understand and then suggests a solution that works for both you and your dog, he also explains the science behind it all if you want to get that in depth about it.

What you have typed is very interesting but my concern with that phylosophy is that very few people can control their dogs environment enough to stop any outside stimuli that might trigger a drive response. If that dog responds to that drive stimuli by deciding to run and then gains drive satisfaction what is to say that at some point the dog might have to decide whether or not the payment you are offering (food,walks, cuddles etc) might not be worth as much as the "potential satisfaction of satisfying it's previously unchecked drive just one more time? Surely then, by your last statement you are saying that your recall is not 100%? Not having a go, I am just trying to gauge what you feel is acceptable. IMO my dogs must come EVERY time I call them, no if's no buts.If a dog comes 99% of the time that means that you have a 1% chance that the one time it is running to the road in front of that truck is the one time your call might fail. I find the subject of recall interesting as most people say that their dog is really reliable and then put a proviso there such as "as long as there aren't birds/people/other dogs/cars etc" that to me is not reliable. I might add that until a few months ago I was also one of those people with a proviso.

agree 100% personally I would rather use crating etc to deal with this particular problem but GAloch I must ask, when was the last time you tried one? the charge that the modern training collars give when using modern methods are so minute that most humans can't even feel it when put on their skin. They are not used so much as an aversary any more (hence the low stim) but as a cue that a command is coming.Imagine it like, your kids watching their favorite program on the television, they might not hear you asking them what they did today bu, you have a much better chance of getting an answer if you tap them on the shoulder first. And i mean tap.

Is your crate wire or the airline type? Molly never really sttled in her wire crate but settled really well in an airline crate, I believe this was due too her being fully enclosed and feeling safer when asleep.

Sound more convincing than the cheese and wine explanation! Great post sardog very interesting!

Monte's more of a Shiraz man but molly's more of a sem sav kinda girl. also, as a note I don't know about anyone elses dogs but my dogs seem to prefer screw tops as they have difficulty with cork screws, Probably due to them not having opposable thumbs? :D

Your supposed to put it in their mouth, not stuff it up their nose! I also think it depends on what wine you are using to compliment the cheese. Sorry, couldn't resist

I am trying to do the same with monte at the moment in fact tommorrow I am planning on taking a toy to the beach to see if I can trick him in to having a run from me to gain a little more independance. I am sure it is just a matter of time.

That's interesting as Molly has always been fairly good with recall and I am now very relaxed with her off leash where Monte is still in velcro dog stage. He doesn't get more than 5 feet away from me where Molly will wander of 5-10 metres have a sniff and them lobe back in an eliptical shape of her own accord and if I call her she runs back tail wagging. I am hoping that Monte rediscovers his freedom soon, I am sure he will he just needs to learn that he can have a wander he just needs to come back when I call him. I am glad to hear Rugers getting better. Maybe one day we will be able to let them all have an off lead run together? My one concern is that Ruger and Monte may well cause a twister if they decided to run round in circles LOL. Is there a law against having 4 GSP's in a space together? MAybe there should be?

My god rugerfly, are you sure your dogs aren't my dogs?

Yes they are fine but I find that I prefer one I can hear as a reassurance to me! Here is something I found on canine hearing Humans can hear sounds approximately within the frequencies of 20 Hz and 20,000 Hz. Anything below 20 Hz, typically cannot be heard although it can be felt. This can be experienced to when you feel the bass of a song. Likewise humans normally cannot hear any sounds above the frequency of 20,000 Hz. Although human hearing is limited to this frequency range, many animals have a wider range of sounds of which they can hear, like dogs for example. The frequency range of dog hearing is approximately 40 Hz to 60,000 Hz, of course depending on the breed of dog as well as its age. Like humans, dogs can begin to go deaf as they become older. In some breeds of dogs it is natural for them to go completely deaf in their old age. As an animal that hears higher sounds than humans, a dog has a different perception of the world as opposed to humans. One example of this is the dog whistle, which is above human hearing, will catch the ear of any well hearing dog. A vacuum cleaner, which merely sounds loud to us, can produce a high frequency sound which may scare dogs away. As a rule of thumb Sound decreases at a rate of roughly 6db everytime you double the distance ie if the whistle was 120db 1 metre away it would be 114db 2 metres away and then 108db 4 metres away until eventually the sound level was below any background noise such as cars, wind, leaves etc so it is not so much how loud the whistle as how much louder the whistle is in comparison to the background noise.

Willow, I haven't got an issue with someone taking the pup to a PP I just see it as risking alot at that age, one bad experience could ruin a puppy that would have been fine otherwise, it can also turn what was a timid but sound puppy in to a fear agressive bag of nerves if it goes wrong. I believe that most PP trainers and PP schools are on the whole great, the issue for me personally is that it is a situation that is pretty much out of the handlers/pecieved Alphas hands. Even if there is not an imediate fear response or conflict/dominance from another pup, how could it affect your pupif it watched another puppy in stress? As I say I don't have a problem with the trainers, I have an issue with the situation or more to the point the lack of environmental control that a handler can exhert whilst in that situation. It's apersonal choice to go the PP and I just feel that owners/handlers should be aware of the possible dangers of this kind of situation at what is arguably one of the most critical points in your pups perceptual development.

Jules p I know wht you mean about the difference but to me the risks are to high with PP style socialisation. I am a massive believer in socialisation but, in a very controlled manner whilst in a puppies formative years and especially during it's fearful stages. To me socialisation is more about introducing a dog to the world that you feel is safe rather than "Socialising" with other puppies. Personally I would recomend that a new handler attends a Pre school without a puppy to gain skills that will help them raise/train the pupy in the future. You would probably feel a bit of a tool at first but the handler would be gaining the greatest asset of all, knowledge. This is much safer than risking your puppies perception of your leadership or judgement. IMHO.

SamGSD have a look on K9forces website at the development section before youu make any decisions heres the site address http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=develop.html I don't know anyone with a more comprehensive knowledge of all things dog than Steve Luke

Personally i would not take my puppy to a pre school in case of a possible incident that might take place at such a formative age. All you need at that age is one incident with a less than confident pup and it could be ruined! I would socialise it myself by taking it to other places/walks/strange houses but very controlled, no strange or unknown dogs. It is your job to make sure that the puppy feels safe in your presence and the only way to do is to make sure that you control the environment. you must lead it in to situations that it comes out of feeling like it was a positive experiance and hence it will trust you because you have proven yourself to have sound judgement. You cannot exhert that level of environmental control at a puppy pre school, you are relying on other people to make sure that your dog has a positive experiance and sadly in my experiance most people don't give a rats if there puppy jumps all over yours as theirs was "only playing" or my favorite is"of course they had a fight theres no need to overreact thats what puppies do!"

Rob, What are you hoping to achieve from attending a puppy pre school? I am not trying to be an Ahole by asking the question by the way, just trying to get a feel for what you are trying to achieve or attain by/whilst attending one? Luke

IMHO very little in a dogs world is not linked to or governed by pack rank, if that is the case what you are calling a lack of respect is by definition the beginings of a dominance issue. I dog does not respect a dog it respects it's rank within the pack. Saying that, some people are happy having dogs that believe they are Alpha of the entire household that won't move off the sofa, bed or doorway when told, or will constantly demand attention by pushing in to people or pawing/headbutting their hand/leg/arm. If the people that own those dogs do not see it as a problem, then it is not! If on the other hand that dog gets seriously aggressive at the wrong time down the track when someone does not bow down to it's wants (a child for instance) is it a problem now!

But Midol, Have you considered that maybe the reason that your ideas have not been met with resounding applause might be that your posts are littered with such statements as. haven't got round to... plenty of time... haven't watched it yet... These do not sound like statements from someone who is going to put in the massive amount of work and dedication that it takes for schutz or PP training. It's not like training a learned behaviour on a food exchange basis. You are suggesting a step in to a very serious world with very real cosequences should you screw up, for you, people around you and the dog. With little knowledge (it would appear) of what is truly involved in the "back office" so to speak. I would love to fly helicopters, always have and probably always will want to but, realistically I have neither the time, Money or possibly aptitude to do it. Please take a deep breath, count to ten and consider if you are truly aware of what you would be signing on for should you decide to go down the PP or schutz route. If you have done research, found out the facts pertaining to time, effort, knowledge base required and financial investment and are truly willing to commit to these, I wish you all the luck in the world but, Please make sure you've done the aforementioned check list before possibly subjecting a puppy to a training regime that may push the dog both mentally and physically to places that possibly neither you or your dog are capable of dealing with.

How do KNOW this? Surely if you were comfortable that you are 100% Alpha you would not concern yourself with a behaviour like the one you are describing as it seems to me that you don't dislike it so why worry about it if you and he can enjoy that act without any concerns to your pack status as you are 100% that he is below you?

I'd be in for any other training events you do.

I really cannot thank Bridget and Steve enough. I think the day was great despite montes apparent lack of interest, however i believe that Molly made up for him with a fantastic display of pooh drive, one of the lesser known drives! Not sure how you harness that drive though :D On a more serious note I do have a question in regard to the differance between prey and food drive as the manifestation of both is very similar ie focusing on the object while displaying obvious arousal. Is the differance purely the trigger/stimuli ie prey =simulated prey item / food= food item or, the drive satisfaction part ie food =eat something/ prey =catch something in your mouth without eating it or, in fact both the trigger and the satisfaction parts of the equation? Is there a chemical difference as to what happens within the dogs brain or purely the trigger and desired outcome? I promise I was listening if this was covered on the day but it is a thought that popped in to my head oin the way home. Once again thanks to bridget, Steve and all that attended for making Bron, the dogs and me feel very welcome.