SkySoaringMagpie

Catching and punishing and bribing are both things that will have put you back. The bribing lets her choose whether the yard is more interesting than your bribe, and the punishing when catching says to her that going back to Mum is a risky business. I have had success with this approach on our Salukis and Afghan (and most people agree they can be bastards to get back): I started by rewarding them when they came into the house of their own accord. I ignored them when they were out in the yard, and when they came in I had a treat jar behind one of the doors in the pantry and I talked to them like they were the cleverest dogs in the world for coming inside and gave them a treat well inside in the house. Then I starting calling the ones who are the most biddable, when they came in I talked to them like they were terribly clever and smart, and gave them a super nice treat (we usually have little boxes of chicken or sausage in the fridge). The others wandered in to see what happened, and everyone soon got the message that there was a party going on and there were conditions on the invitation. I also do a lot of "recall and release" so that they don't associate recalling with "fun is over" I am not superwoman, and occasionally they don't respond. I go out and get them when that happens - without making it a game. If we can't get them without it being a game, the door is shut for a pre-determined period of time and they stay out. We decide when they come back in. These days they are pretty reliable tho'.

Another vote here for an iClick - it's what I use.

I've got a flock guardian cross in one of my classes at the moment. Looking at it, I think it's crossed with a greyhound. It's a sweet tempered dog but its behaviour is classic independent breed behaviour. It shuts down very fast, and is very easily distracted by what is going on a significant distance away. Usually this manifests by it dropping, and watching the classes two paddocks away. I can deal with the sighthound bit, but I'm hoping someone might have some web resources or ideas for training tips and tricks to try with flock guardians. I'm wondering if part of the hurdle here is a mix of a dog that is bred to hunt with sight, and a dog that is bred to keep a constant watch on things. Naturally I'll suggest attention work exercises, but if anyone has any insights, I'm all ears. Or eyes, or something. :D

At the club, luring from a sit first and then a stand - with advice about fading the lure. At home, I try and catch my dogs doing it and mark/reward, and I have also used deliberate shaping with success. I don't suggest physical pressure in classes. I've seen people try it with some breeds (terriers for example) and what you get is your classic "push back" from the dog which makes the whole thing more difficult than it needs to be. I've seen very experienced people use physical pressure with their dogs, but my guess is they have some sort of tai chi style "push hands" feel to their physical pressure, which avoids the issue of the dog pushing back.

Definitely agree. In my last post I had written out but then deleted something about a dog trainer in the US who decided she was all out of challenges with her traditional obedience breed dogs and she got an Afghan. I saw her work the Afghan on a TV show and I'll never forget it doing a perfect and precise retrieve with a dumbbell. Incredible stuff if you know Afghans well. I deleted the paragraph, because having Salukis myself, and having gone through the hassle of trying to train a difficult to train breed as a novice, I don't blame people who decide to go for the more biddable ones or the people who just want to work with their dog and are either not ready for, or not interested in elite competition. There's way too much snobbery in dog world, including inverse snobbery. Those people who are "just" getting no-place passes with their heart dogs are the ones who support clubs with entry fees. Plus, the other reason I deleted it is because I believe that if you are going to work with some of the sighthound breeds, you do need to embrace positive training and I wasn't going to go there! I'm here now tho', so I am convinced the reason Afghans have a reputation as stupid is because the vast majority of them just cannot work with an aversive only program and learn. I don't rule out a well timed and serious correction, we have used them from time to time on both the Aff and the Salukis, but you can't, imo, use them as a regular part of the learning and training program itself or a they will shut down very fast. Edit: I was just pondering this, and realised that while I have used verbal corrections, I have not used leash corrections. I'm such a hippy ;-) I'd sooner own a Saluki or an Afghan than a BC tho', I like that my dogs are lazy bastards and I don't constantly have to give them new and interesting jobs to do.

It's a shame they published the comment about BCs, because not everyone who trials does it to win places just as not everyone who shows does it to win BIS's. Sure, if you do want to win, a BC is a good option, but as PF mentions, it can go horribly wrong.

Thanks poodlewrangler, that was a useful bit of information about the difference between dropping and shedding coat. I hope she doesn't end up with a pet shop oodle too and I'm trying hard to balance giving information without pushing.

Thanks showdog, I've had a chat to my mum and that overgrown woolly matting sheep image was very handy! That's not what she wants at all. I think she is going to go for a Tibetan Spaniel. *fingers crossed*

OK. Someone has told my mum that she should get a Spoodle, and that she should get one that has an American Cocker parent rather than English Cocker parent because American Cockers don't shed. I can cover most oodle marketing puffery, but this is a new one to me and I'm no Cocker expert. What are the characteristics of the two Cocker coats? She likes an American Cocker a friend has, are they low shedding dogs?

I see classes as for being all three. Well, more particularly for learning and practicing. We are there to teach and to observe class members to practice so we can check to see their progress and to 'tweak' techniques/methods to ensure they are being properly executed and/or to help with any problems. "Proofing" is also practiced in class (level dependant). By doing so, class members gain a better understanding of "how" to proof and "what" to do in the proofing process. I don't disagree with this, but I see learning how to proof and having one's proofing methods checked over by an instructor as part of the learning process. The day to day practice of proofing - taking your dog to different environments and training them - is going to be done on the student's own time. Apart from anything else, a dog club full of dogs and smells and people is a tough environment for anyone start out in with proofing. They'll need to to practice some stuff in lower distraction environments first.

I figure if someone expresses a desire for help, especially on the internet, it's up to them to deal with the fact that people are going to assume a basic level of practical knowledge unless they make it very clear where they are up to with everything. I think any request for advice should give a rough idea of what they've tried already anyway. As I think I've mentioned before anyway, on the internet you will often get people posting requests for advice that are essentially some variation on "Internet! Tell me it's OK to rehome/euthanase this impossible dog who is not behaving like Lassie!! Nooo, don't make me do any of that complicated training stuff!!" Those people don't want help, they want permission to do the wrong thing. When it gets down to it, when I offer help, it's invariably out of concern for the dog in question. In other internet spaces I sometimes get terribly grateful and surprised notes back thanking me for my help. At that point, it seems kindof gauche to say that I didn't go to the effort of writing it out because I'm a nice person but rather because I love sighthounds and want to help create a world where their owners have more clue.

Training in a class or training on your own time? I agreed that proofing a dog is important. I don't agree that AH AH-ing a dog in a group class situation is appropriate. Two reasons: - Classes are for learning, not practicing and proofing - AH AH-ing interferes with other handlers and their dogs, and is a verbal correction that would not go unpenalised in a trial ring. That was mystiqview not me. Fortunately for me our furry supermodels don't usually attract the attention of bumptious dogs.

Some things I often hear dog people say to people who have their first dog and are new to training: "you need to show the dog who is boss" "you need to be tougher" "you're too soft" "that dog has you worked out" "you let it get away with too much" "that dog has you well trained" I've long thought that those kinds of statements are worse than useless because many newbies would like nothing more than to have more control, but they just don't know how. The whole situation with their dog is often really frustrating to them, and what they get is people pointing out the bleeding obvious, without helping them with practical things to try. Plus those kind of comments make most newbies feel at least two inches tall because it makes it sound like the problem is a failing of moral fibre and/or intestinal fortitude. This can encourage those with something to prove to overcompensate. On the other hand, those who are a bit sensitive can often jump to the conclusion that you think they should be hanging their dog two feet off the ground by a choke chain, when all you really mean is that they should stop giving it food rewards until it does something to deserve the food. Sometimes I wonder if people who are "naturals" with dogs forget that they need to backchain for the humans, not just the dogs. While it may be second nature for experienced people not to give a command that will be ignored, the newbie needs to be given explicit practical instructions on what to do when a dog doesn't respond to a recall, or doesn't take a heel position, or won't gait properly around a show ring. Saying "you need to show the dog who is boss" might be true, but you may as well say "the sky is blue" for all the good it will do. What will help is someone saying "try this". For example: "work with your dog on a stair to perfect the position and stop him creeping forward" or "if your dog doesn't respond to a recall in the backyard, go and leash him and bring him in - don't make coming in an option". Even if what you suggest doesn't work for that dog, it gives the owner something to try. And if you have nothing practical to suggest, I think it's better to go with the old standby guideline: "never miss an opportunity to shut up".

I agree. While it's true that you eventually proof a dog against most things there's no sense in one person in a class making the proofing journey twice or three times as long as it need be for the dogs who already have a longer journey in front of them. I have said to students who "AH AH!!" their dogs during stays that not only will that eventually be penalised in tests as they move up the ranks, but it's really annoying to other people and won't win them any friends. Then I explain what to do if the dog breaks or looks like it will break. I save "AH AH" for situations that are dangerous - breaking a stay in a training exercise is no cause for an "AH AH".

It's bullshit that an entire dog can't pay attention, but I think you know that already. Basically, everyone, at some point in their training, will run into an instructor who they disagree with and/or who rubs them up the wrong way. Also, in dog world, nearly everybody has their little biases "quirks" based on how they got into doggie pursuits. An instructor who works in rescue will probably have strong views about desexing. Whereas an instructor who regularly shows in conformation may not have strong views about desexing, but may have strong views about cross-breeding. Me, I'm an instructor who has to paint on a plastic smile and try to be nice to the people asking me about grooming problems with their poodle mixes because I'm very much against mixed breed commodity dogs and I just want to yell "WTF did you expect ferchrissakes?!?!". I don't do that, of course. In short, there is plenty to be offended about in dog world, which is as good a reason as any not to waste time on getting offended. You know your dog, you have the relationship with your dog, you can work with an entire dog. I would say nothing and get on with the business of training your dog.

I'd put her on a flat collar or flat martingale for now. Also, get someone to assess your body language while you're training. Usually I don't talk like this but in this situation I think questions of dominance are relevant: it's possible she is unwilling to stand because she views it as a dominant gesture. In dog world, the submissive dog does not hold its position in a stand when a dominant dog approaches. It moves off to the side, or drops, or rolls over. The way to get around that is to get her to understand that standing is actually what you, the crazy human, want her to do. Reward/praise even a short stand. Catch her standing at home and reward it. Stop rewarding sits and drops except occasionally until her stand is solid. There are some good books out there - I like "Help for your Shy Dog" by Deborah Wood. If you like reading a lot of detail, "Help for Your Fearful Dog" by Nicole Wilde also contains a lot of things to try. The Wood book profiles dogs that were impossibly shy that ended up succeeding beautifully in the ring.

The worst stuff I have seen online is mostly on the American sites. In those situations, you often find someone who has already decided that they want to be rid of the dog. Instead of copping to that, and taking responsibility for rehoming the dog or putting it to sleep, they go to the internet to "ask for advice". People give them good advice. The person finds a reason why each bit of advice won't work, and claim the dog is "impossible". Often it's simple stuff like house-training. What the person is really looking for when asking for advice is permission from the "internet" to get rid of the dog without any burden on their conscience or ego. These are usually the people who have a working dog in their backyard that they have never trained. They get rid of it thinking that the next cute Aussie Shep puppy will magically be "different" somehow without any work on their part.

Figured this was as good a place as any to describe what happened to me today in a show ring. I've been working on counter-conditioning one of my young dogs who has been nervous in the ring. Today he was great, we walked around the rings, we said hello to people, he let them handle him, he was standing nicely and calmly waiting to go in and I saw the judge looking at him with an open expression from outside the ring. All good so far. Then someone marched up behind us. She had a broken metal chair, one of those little fold up jobs they give for prizes. She had it folded up and she slammed it it into the big metal bin which was a foot away from my dog. It made a terrible racket, and spooked him and he shot to the end of the lead. I had an initial urge to rip her head off, but sucked it up instead and went and ran him a bit before we went in. I was really, really disappointed tho', after all my work on him, it definitely unsettled him and I thought we were doomed. He was not great in the stack, but he gaited beautifully and the judge understood that he had been given a fright just before he went in. We got BOB Two lessons there for me. First one is never underestimate what might happen ringside and keep some eyes in the back of your head. Second lesson is that if something bad happens, calm down and get to work fixing the issue

I agree. I also think that: - many dogs that survive these days probably wouldn't have back then. The dog that could understand what is required and the dog that didn't get sick (and therefore show behavioural problems) would be the one who'd survive. The others would just disappear. Heck, I've heard stories from old timers about losing their beloved puppy because it came into season and the parents just said "right, it's going" and got rid of it. - while the place of dogs in our lives has changed and we are "softer" our expectations of them and their behaviour have gone through the roof. People expect them to be perfectly clean indoors, to walk nicely on a leash, to not roam, to not bark, to put up with anything kids throw at them, etc etc. IOW, to not behave like dogs half the time. - dogs adored my grandfather. He had no training in dog theory, he was just a quiet, slow moving, deliberate, decent man. All the neighbourhood dogs would stop and say hi to him. For those of us who are hyper 21st century people, we need training to do what came naturally to the old timers and part of getting people to practice what they learn is to explain why it works. People are reinforced on a constant basis these days for acting hyper, stressed, and skittish. "I'm soooo busy", "I'm sooo stressed". That kind of demeanor is death for being an effective trainer and it's hard to break through, so I'm totally in favour of books that explain why you need to smarten yourself up to speak the dog's language.

Made sense to me. Video is a good teacher if you can stand to look at yourself on video. I was wondering why my dog was backing out from conformation judges until I realised that my attitude to the judges' approach was signalling "OMG, Scary Monster!" Shoulders up, mouth shut tight, rigid hand on the lead. Oy. No point saying to the dog that there's nothing to worry about if you're signalling WORRY with everything you do.

Thanks! I think I've heard Susan Garrett and other trainers talk about him? Sounds like he's a trainers' trainer.

Not Pharaohs, but there are Ibizans doing Agility successfully around Canberra, and faxonandbear does obedience with an Afghan. I say go for it! Just work on that recall ;-) Also, you may find you need to try different techniques to get her working than you currently use with the GSD and Borders. That's the beauty of doing it with an independent breed, you learn a lot! You can always ask the DOLers who train sighthounds if you get stuck

There's a new book out that I'm now recommending to my saluki and afghan friends. It's Jane Killion's When Pigs Fly. She breeds and trains bull terriers for conformation, agility and obedience. I think it's an excellent book, and it provides good explanations about why different breeds react the way they do, and gives examples of useful motivators to try with those breeds (instead of the usual general advice to "find something your dog likes" which while true, is not always useful when they're spitting out cabanossi at your feet) My favourite bit of the book reveals more about me than the book I think. She doesn't recommend leaping about like an idiot to motivate your independent breed dog and when I read that I almost pumped the air with my fist and yelled "Yes!!". I can't count the number of times instructors have told me to act silly and talk in a high voice and my Saluki has just eyeballed me as if to say "you're an idiot". I would also recommend it to trainers who own the more biddable breeds for insights into what to suggest to class members with independent breed dogs. Before I read it, I often used to point people to So Your Dog's Not Lassie by Betty Fisher, which I still think is a good book. Pigs Fly is a tighter summary of what to do to get high quality compliance tho' I think. Any other recommends or reviews from those of us who have independent breeds who regularly extend the middle claw with much to teach us?

I would have reported it if someone else had seen it and had been willing to go to the show manager with me. The dog in question was a puppy, which was heartbreaking, and I also saw this person repeatedly and angrily slap an adult dog about the head while the dog was in a car crate. While there was an element of shock which slowed me down, ultimately I could see this person was not in full possession of themselves and they definitely fell into the criterion of bringing the sport into disrepute. Unfortunately there was no-one else I could see who witnessed it, and there was no way to prove what I saw. I am not in the business of bringing forward allegations I have no hope of proving.

- I think many people are genuine about the fact that while they train a particular way, they don't necessarily expect everyone else to train the same way and they are conscious of trying not to over-react in the moment. That can lead to hesitation out of a desire to give people the benefit of the doubt. - I think newbies are conscious of their newbie status in all sorts of ways and don't want to make waves. - In show world you need to have $50 on you to lodge the complaint. I understand why, it's to prevent vexatious political complaints, but not everyone has a free $50 on them at the time. It's true that if the complaint is upheld you get your money back, but that process takes a while. - In the case of the "behind the shed" incidents, often it is one person's word against another, unless someone has the presence of mind to get their mobile phone out and start recording. Picking a fight with someone without evidence isn't something most people want to try.