SkySoaringMagpie

How is that not a correction? The dog doesn't like the sensation so it changes its behaviour to stop it happening again. I use negative punishment, particularly time outs. Time outs work because the dog doesn't like being isolated from the pack. I don't call it "giving the dog some personal space", it works because the dog doesn't like it. Let's not bull**** ourselves.

The difficulty I have with these discussions is that you are both right, though I think you're particularly right about implications of incompetence (which btw, come from both "sides" of these discussions). You can train a dog effectively in a number of ways. Those ways are limited and shaped by the trainer's skill, values, emotional profile and resources (including time, money, access to good trainers and access to good tools). If you add into it strong personal views developed through personal experience and values that go way beyond dog training then it's no wonder you get people feeling that they are being accused of incompetence and/or unnecessarily hurting their dog in these discussions. However, that can obscure the the fact that when someone says "X is possible" it means it's possible. That something is possible doesn't mean it has to happen that way. The reason I said earlier in the thread that what is easy to some is hard to others and vice versa, is because people often don't read their own capability and the capability of others very well. FWIW, there is a training goal that I know is possible with my dogs, and I'm not going to put the time in. I asked a friend who has a purely positive trained Border Collie about training a recall under high distraction with my Salukis. I have seen him call his BC off a mob of running roos and the BC's compliance was perfect. He said that it would be possible to train the Salukis, if I had the willingness to put in a lot of time to work against their breeding - more time than I am prepared to put in. I know e-collars are another option, but my personal views mean that I will not use them. So I have management plans in place instead, which is what the vast majority of Saluki people do (never letting them off lead in public, suitable fencing, and in the middle east, GPS collars so they can be located by a 4WD if they leave the pack). In short, it's possible to train a better recall under heavy distraction than I have using both purely positive or correction based methods and tools, but for various reasons I'm not going to do it. If I wanted a dog that didn't turn cloth eared in the presence of a hare, I would have picked a different breed.

I agree, we own "difficult breeds" and do not use prongs or train with check chains. The original question was for opinions on what to use on a puppy for general training. These discussions always seem to become a veiled snarkfest about positive vs correction based training. It would be more productive if they didn't because I'm not sure there is anyone here who agrees that you should use a chain on your average puppy.

What is hard to you is easy to others, and vice versa. I have a friend who dropped out of training her border collie in the 80's because she personally found it very difficult to use a check chain to correct her dog. She had a very good eye for behaviour modification tho', and if positive training had been popular at the time, it would have worked really well for her. Likewise, what constitutes a "result" is different for different people. I have had old school show people warn me against doing obedience with my show dogs because "they will lose their sparkle". I know what they mean, and I also know that there are methods you can use to preserve the sparkle, but the fact is that if you're heavy with a dog, you may get compliance, but it will be at the expense of other qualities you might want to retain. Whenever we use a training method or set a criteria, I think we need to think about how that will influence what else we might want to do with the dog (like people who set "no sniffing ever!" criteria who then want their dog to start tracking like a genius). For the OP, a check chain on a puppy is overkill.

Only one of mine is a tissue fiend. He's also the only one with resource guarding issues. If he finds a tissue box he yanks out the tissues clumps at a time, and then shreds the box. I can usually salvage some of the tissues because he pulls them out in clumps. However, now we just have one tissue box on top of the fridge - figure it's easier to manage than train out. The rest of them have all been known to get into some ripping good times with paper and cardboard, just not tissues. I got up this morning and my OH said "um, Chloe has been writing cheques". This is code for "our 13 week old Afghan puppy has just chewed up the cheque book" :p It never occurred to me to put the cheque book out of reach because none of them have ever considered it a fun toy before!!

Re walking at their own pace, I don't let them pull - but one has a heart complaint and another has elbow and hip dysplasia so I think it's wise to let those two set their own pace. I let them sniff as long as they are polite about it - I figure that the walk is primarily for their benefit mentally speaking, and they may as well use their brain a bit. Sniffing is a useful environmental reward too, means I don't really have to bother with food treats. Perhaps it would be different if I had dogs obsessed with sniffing - mine aren't, they just enjoy it. I also use running on leash as an environmental reward. I don't care about pissing and shitting - I carry bags and because I have entire dogs I prefer to reinforce pissing outside whenever I get the opportunity. Basically I'm of the "let them have an appropriate outlet and they know what to do to get what they want" school of thought. I do do some work, I call them in to a heel position when sharing the path with oncoming walkers and joggers for example and make them sit before crossing roads - the standard stuff. Generally I think walks are a great opportunity to train good manners. If I heeled them the whole way though, it wouldn't be a walk, it would be a long heeling exercise.

Yahoo list name is misspelt and we haven't gotten around to fixing it! There's a button on this page you can use to join: http://www.acthoundclub.org/events.html As Faxonandbear said, the primary hold up has been a suitable venue - our property is in Yass and requires significant work before we could do it here (don't want dogs garroted on horse fencing for example). Other possibilities haven't worked out and now summer is coming on it will have to wait until next winter. If you are a Canberra region local and know of a couple of acres of cleared, flat land with good fencing we could use please let us know about it!!

In your post you actually mention two punishments at the same time - a positive one (smacking) and a negative one (time out). Why didn't you just use the time out?

I agree. A lot of puppy training is about puppy-proofing the house so that it does not get an opportunity to do the wrong thing. That, combined with giving the puppy lots of opportunities for appropriate activities. Once the puppy has discovered that the rat cage is fun, your job becomes 10 times harder than if it never discovered that at all. I'm not a big fan of physical punishment including spray bottles etc, but I do use timeouts and withdrawal of attention for short periods. Works a treat. The only sensible use for a rolled up newspaper is to hit oneself on the head with it and say "I forgot to shut the door/put the shoe away/crate the puppy".

I agree. I have recently been involved in managing vet treatment for two pups with parvo. Parvo is not something you f*** around with. I have a girlfriend who is a homeopath - she gave us a basic potion-kit and she doses the animals from time to time. I would no more rely on that for parvo immunity than fly to the moon - and she would agree.

If she knows you are not there catching her in the act won't mean anything. She'll learn to hop off when she hears the car in the driveway or your footsteps at the door. If you really don't want her on the couch, you will have to change the couch to make it less attractive than her bed. Why don't you want her on the couch? In our house we use couch covers. Easy to wash and keeps the dog fur and whatever else off the couch itself. If a dog is sitting on the couch in a spot where I want to sit I just make them get off. If I don't want to sit there, I see no reason why the dog can't sit there.

I think they are considered challenging, but they're certainly not impossible. And ANY dog at 9 months is annoying, Sibes aren't alone in the corner there. Labs at 9 months are often like a frog in a sock and they are supposed to be "easy". I think it's pointless to tell people after they have a dog that they shouldn't have got the breed. It may be true that another breed would have been easier but the dog is there now and they've bonded with it. And people love what they love. So the instructor just has to suck it up and come up with solutions. Sometimes you are better off finding an instructor that works successfully with your breed or other arctic breeds (or failing that, hounds or terriers). In the meantime just be patient and learn everything you can. It's actually not important to be as precise as a high in trial border collie anyway, particularly when you're starting out. You work out what you want your dog to do, and at what standard, then you just work your way there slowly but surely. If something doesn't work, move on and try something else. The good thing about an independent breed is that what you learn, you usually learn properly because they usually demand a higher level of precision from the handler. If it takes longer to get there, it's no big deal - the most important thing is spending time working with your dog. Personally I don't give a rats if there is a Border Collie somewhere doing someone's taxes while serving cocktails, the fact that my dogs challenge me is part of their charm.

Fifi, I'm really sorry to hear about you losing her that way. I hope you find comfort in your memories and that the adjustment for the rest of the pack isn't too difficult.

Are you sure you haven't taught her not to wee in front of you? Plenty of people do by buggering up their aversives, and then they wonder why their dog is "sneaky". I agree with Poodlefan that it's tether time, and it's also stubborn time. No point saying "she won't wee" outside, you have to outstubborn the dog. After meals, waking and playing dog goes out until it wees and then you throw a liver party. If that means you sit in a garden chair for an hour, that's what it means. Just don't eyeball her, no-one likes to go in front of someone else staring at them. So, your OH may in fact be the soft one - waiting outside isn't fun, but if you don't have the patience for it you pay in wet beds.

Exactly. Timing with treats has to be spot on, and with grooming it's too easy to reinforce the wrong thing. We stopped treating mid-groom with our Afghan and instead made sure we ended the grooming session on our terms then called him in to the kitchen for a treat. Now when he jumps off the table, he heads straight to the kitchen because he knows that is where his treat is.

:p Congratulations! Care to share what the "right way" is, as I am hoping to start trialling a deerhound x next year :D Good question! Different sighthound people will have different views, but I think overall they're usually a more demanding dog to train. You need to be very precise about what you're doing, they don't let you get away with the things that dogs who have been bred to cope with messier human cues do. FaxonandBear mentioned keeping training sessions short, and that's important too. Most of them usually can't work effectively with a human for the lengths of time that say a GSD or a Border Collie can. This can be hard to manage in a 1 hour class, but the trick is to pick instructors that understand that some dogs in the class will need to take a regular quick play or crate break to refocus. You also can't have any kind of ego about having the best and most obedient dog in the class/trial. A very well developed tolerance for public embarrassment is useful :p The thing is, you know that when you see your dog streaking after a rabbit or a lure like greased lightning that your dog excels at what it is bred for. Anything else, including obedience trialling, is just icing.

Ours know that when I say "Can you get the dog bowls" to the OH, that food is coming and they all start to circle. My first attempt at clicker training a show stack actually wound up teaching the little bugger to dance when he thought his reward was for moving rather than for moving into a specific position. That was definitely one of those "oopsie, back to the drawing board" moments...

Just wanted to say a public congratulations to my OH, Bear, and to Faxon, our Afghan Hound for getting their last pass in CCD yesterday at the ACT Companion Dog Club trial. Bloody good effort I reckon, as Faxon is Bear's first trialling dog and starting with an Afghan is not the easiest road to take. I think they are the second Afghan Hound team to get a CCD in Australia, a QLD Aff titled in CCD earlier this year. Anyway, just goes to show, you can train allegedly untrainable breeds if you approach it the right way!!

When you call her away, do you call first and then tug the lead, or do both at the same time? Or worse, tug then call? I think calling and tugging the lead at the same time is a common bad handling habit - god knows I had it, and still have it if I don't pay attention. I now try to give the dogs the opportunity to listen and respond before using the lead, it seems to have worked pretty well with my guys. Also, this would not work for dogs of all sizes, but if they don't heed the call I just turn and walk away. I don't use my arm to tug the leash, I just walk and they have to follow because I'm holding the lead. This would possibly not work for small breeds where you might end up sledding them but for my guys it works fine.

Sounds like you're doing the right things to me. I think it's good to be gradual where you can - you already know the main thing to do, which is not to reward the whining. I would increase the amount of time you're away slowly now while you can, so that when you do have to be away a while it's not a huge deal. Also, chuck a bit of variance in so that sometimes you come back quickly. If he's not destroying stuff, pasting poo all over his crate or injuring himself, a bit of whining is not too bad. I'm sure if you continue to refuse to reward it, he'll knock it off. The other important element is to reward the things you do want to see. So if he's sitting quietly, reward him with something he likes.

The book "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt has some great ideas in it for your situation. There is also a Control Unleashed Yahoo Group.

Who have you contacted and how many is "several"? There's a guy in Wagga who is pretty good, I don't know about Albury tho'

Nearly every trainer has ideas that are useful. I think Woodhouse was a great contributer in that she insisted people accept responsibility for their dog's behaviour rather than blaming it on the dog. However, I personally don't think anyone should need to use a choker on a GR they have obtained as a puppy. If you are borrowing heaps from the library there are some other more up to date authors worth reading including: - Karen Pryor - Patricia McDonnell - Jean Donaldson Ian Dunbar's puppy book is useful too, and I think it might be available as a freebie online.

Depends what the mess is. If it's wet muddy paws it's a damp towel. If it's bitches blood I just put her in the human bath and do her back end quickly with the tap hose because I don't want her to get a chill. If it's loose hair and scurf I use a rubber brush. Agree with settrlvr that if it's for a show, I always bathe them in the hydrobath. If they do something annoying at the show (like my boy who pissed on his front leg at the last show!!!) I use "Show Off"

I think medication will be a common option presented if you go to a vet behaviourist. Medication is a common tool for a vet to use and people reach for tools that are familiar to them when faced with a problem to solve. I don't think a vet behaviourist gives you a basis on which to judge positive training. In fact, no one trainer can give you a basis on which to judge positive training because they all have their fallibilities and quirks, just as primarily correction based trainers do. If you are out to "test" a positive only handler to test positive training you will definitely get the answer you expect. With any dog training I think it is better to test the theory with your own dogs yourself, with some expert advice to make sure you're executing the theory correctly so it's a decent test. I would not ask a correction based trainer or a positive only trainer to carry the can for a whole set of theory. No-one is perfect and everyone stuffs up and runs into dogs they can't handle. I'd love to see what ends up on the cutting room floor of all those animal training shows... I personally can't stand haltis, I think they are Grade A aversives. While many positive-identified handlers use them, I don't consider them positive, so I don't associate them with positive training. I think positive training has a great deal to offer. I think one of its greatest strengths is that when done properly it demands human self-examination. Ultimately I think positive training asks the question "is there a better way to do this?". Sometimes the answer is no, but that doesn't make invalid the majority of times when the answer is yes.